Decisive Strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Decisive Strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Huxleyboy
12-05-07, 03:56 PM OK,

So I've been out of the D&D loop for a couple years, but I'm trying to get back in it. I made a Monk, and I was looking at the PHB II and saw the decisive strike technique could be substituted for flurry of blows, however something about the wording threw me off.

"As a full round action, make an attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon using your highest attack bonus but taking a -2 penalty on this roll."

It then goes on to say that "if your attack hits it deals double damage." Now here's the part that confuses me, "(as does any other attack you make before the start of your next turn)"

Are they mainly reffering to attacks of opportunity? If you're utilizing a full round action, you forfeit your extra attacks don't you? Or am I wrong about that?

If so, it doesn't really seem worth it to have one attack doubled... Your
flurry of blows is at a lower attack bonus, but it's not that bad. Yes, you can potential deal double damage every round and deal an attack of opportunity whose damage is also doubled. And scoring a critical hit would mean quadruple damage, just trying to get some feedback on this, however, is it better than possibly having 3 4 or 5 successful attacks?
Tordak
12-05-07, 04:35 PM Yeah, using a full attack action means you wont get many other attack, so it is mainly aimed at AoO, unless you have a special feat that allows you to take an extra standard action in the round (there are some feats) or make an attack as a swift or free or immediate action.

There are some feats, however, that will allow you many attack of opportunity, and against opponents attacking you too. This could benefit you a lot if you have combat reflexes, Robilard Gambit (PHB II), karmic strike (CW), or the opportunist ability (rogue have this ability, but also some PrC). It is also good if you're dealing with a creature with a very high Damage Reduction, which could block all your regular attacks.
dman11235
12-05-07, 05:11 PM As Tordak said, it's made for AoOs. It would be interesting to build a character for that. Make one attack a round, and take karmic strike and that other feat, so that they merely need to attack you to recieve an AoO. I think that if you also have Robilar's Gambit you can make two if they hit.
Salla
12-05-07, 05:21 PM There's also Snap Kick from ToB.
dman11235
12-05-07, 06:30 PM Well yeah. That too. What is that feat that lets you take that AoO though? I can't remember. It's if they miss you. Combine that with Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike and you get two AoOs every time they swing for double damage. That's painful.
Tordak
12-05-07, 06:50 PM Actually, Robillard Gambit allows you (if memory serves me well) to make an AoO everytime your opponent swings at you (whether he hits or not is irrelevant), each swing representing one opportunity. You can waste all you AoOs on the same foe. Downside : the opponent gets +4 to hit and damages against you while you use this ability. There's one where you get AoO if he misses you, you can find it in (amongst other books) the DragonMagazine Compedium.

I don't think the feats (even combined) allow you to take more then one attack per opportunity (that is a very basic rules of AoO). Robillard gambits kind of make Karmic Strikes and the other feat not so usefull anymore, but you do so at risk so you need to choose which one you want and what you're ready to give up. If I recall correctly, they other feat work if you fight on the defensive (or use combat expertise), so you could cancel Karmic Strikes and fight on the defensive for a total AC penalty/bonus of +0 and get an AoO whether or not your opponent hits.
dman11235
12-06-07, 12:47 AM Agile Riposte. That's the one if they miss.

And you're right abour that second paragraph. My bad. Well, one attack per their attacks is still really good. Especially if you can get your AC high enough that the -4 penalty makes it so that they actually have a chance to hit on a 15, and then pump it higher. And then there's that other way. Take Kung Fu genius. Might help reduce MAD.
Huxleyboy
12-06-07, 06:54 AM What is Kung Fu genius?

Also, is there a good list of feats and skills anywhere out there? I've found them throughout different things I've looked at, but they're all so scattered.
Asurya
12-06-07, 07:50 AM Kung-Fu genius lets you use your Int on all your Wis based monk ability (replace, not add)
Tordak
12-06-07, 08:35 AM For a monk, improved natural weapon will work well for a start (essentially, you'll use the table for large sized monk for unarmed strikes damage). Combat reflexes is good (you could get it as a bonus at level 2, but you should take stunning fist because it has high prerequisites), so take it, and improved initiative is never a lost. Dodge, mobility and spring attack are all very good for monk because of his very high mobility, and dodge and mobility qualifies you for elusive target (CWarrior), which allow you (amongst other thing) to avoid some power attack and cause flanking opponents to attack each other. Freezing the lifeblood : you'll paralyze an opponent using your stunning fist (instead of stunning). Close-quarter fighting allow you to better avoid grappling, but improved grapple is good for you cause your unarmed strikes damage is high (look at grapple to see why this is good). If you take decisive strikes, then karmic strikes, Robillard's gambit or Agile riposte will give you the benefit of more versatile attacks of opportunity, as said in previous posts.

Some very specific monk feats exist too, and they are quite interesting. Versatile unarmed strikes (PHB II) allows you to choose the type of damage your unarmed strikes deal (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning). Ki Blast (PHB II)allows you to project a ball af KI energy to a distance by spending stunning attempts (2 I think, and I don't remember the prereq. for the feat). Ring the golden bell (Dragon Compedium) allows you to, a number of time per day equal to 1+wis modifier i think, deal your unarmed strikes damage from distance (don't remember the exact range). Superior unarmed strikes (Tome of Battle) make your unarmed strikes count as 4 monk level higher, which can be good if you multiclass (or take a PrC not stacking with monk level).

One not as well known combo is Empty hand mastery, found in oriental adventure. You need the following feats : power attack, sunder, ki shout, fist of iron, improved unarmed strikes, eagle claw attack (all found in PHB, CW and Oriental Adventures), as well as bluff 4 ranks. These will give you a synergy, called Empty Hand Mastery, which increase the damage of your unarmed strikes by one dice size category, as if you were one size category larger.

Oh, I just realized I missread your question, there is a consolidated list you can acces from the main D&D page (on WoTC website) by typing feat in the search bar. The list will tell you the feat and which book to find it in (won't give much description though). There aren't so many skill, pretty much all of them are in the PHB.
Huxleyboy
12-06-07, 11:07 AM No, this was a big help! Thanks! You've given me a lot of things to look at that I hadn't considered.

I actually did pick up the Superior Unarmed Strike, and was looking at the Versatile strike as well... now I've got even more options.
I guess it really depends on what type of monk I want to create.

I've created a pretty good striker, but his AC is still pretty low.
Thanks again!
dman11235
12-06-07, 08:18 PM Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) has a larger list than the consolidated lists archive. It even has classes, monsters, and spells, well, look at it.
edventure
12-07-07, 10:32 AM I actually did pick up the Superior Unarmed Strike, and was looking at the Versatile strike as well... now I've got even more options.

It's really a waste of a feat slot. Get a Monk belt instead. +5 monk levels instead of +4 for SUS. Also the feat is absolutely useless once you hit 20 as Monk damage does not progress after that point. If you do keep it, look to retrain at that point.

I don't know what the prereqs are for Versatile Strike, but it sounds like a better option.
dman11235
12-07-07, 04:40 PM SUS is still good if you only have 11 or fewer monk levels (or effective). Thatnks to it I was able to get 2d10 base medium with only 6 levels in monk. I can do even better if I was able to get a Maonk's Tattoo (down to a lower monk level).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Huxleyboy 12-05-07, 03:56 PM	OK, So I've been out of the D&D loop for a couple years, but I'm trying to get back in it. I made a Monk, and I was looking at the PHB II and saw the decisive strike technique could be substituted for flurry of blows, however something about the wording threw me off. "As a full round action, make an attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon using your highest attack bonus but taking a -2 penalty on this roll." It then goes on to say that "if your attack hits it deals double damage." Now here's the part that confuses me, "(as does any other attack you make before the start of your next turn)" Are they mainly reffering to attacks of opportunity? If you're utilizing a full round action, you forfeit your extra attacks don't you? Or am I wrong about that? If so, it doesn't really seem worth it to have one attack doubled... Your flurry of blows is at a lower attack bonus, but it's not that bad. Yes, you can potential deal double damage every round and deal an attack of opportunity whose damage is also doubled. And scoring a critical hit would mean quadruple damage, just trying to get some feedback on this, however, is it better than possibly having 3 4 or 5 successful attacks?
Tordak 12-05-07, 04:35 PM	Yeah, using a full attack action means you wont get many other attack, so it is mainly aimed at AoO, unless you have a special feat that allows you to take an extra standard action in the round (there are some feats) or make an attack as a swift or free or immediate action. There are some feats, however, that will allow you many attack of opportunity, and against opponents attacking you too. This could benefit you a lot if you have combat reflexes, Robilard Gambit (PHB II), karmic strike (CW), or the opportunist ability (rogue have this ability, but also some PrC). It is also good if you're dealing with a creature with a very high Damage Reduction, which could block all your regular attacks.
dman11235 12-05-07, 05:11 PM	As Tordak said, it's made for AoOs. It would be interesting to build a character for that. Make one attack a round, and take karmic strike and that other feat, so that they merely need to attack you to recieve an AoO. I think that if you also have Robilar's Gambit you can make two if they hit.
Salla 12-05-07, 05:21 PM	There's also Snap Kick from ToB.
dman11235 12-05-07, 06:30 PM	Well yeah. That too. What is that feat that lets you take that AoO though? I can't remember. It's if they miss you. Combine that with Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike and you get two AoOs every time they swing for double damage. That's painful.
Tordak 12-05-07, 06:50 PM	Actually, Robillard Gambit allows you (if memory serves me well) to make an AoO everytime your opponent swings at you (whether he hits or not is irrelevant), each swing representing one opportunity. You can waste all you AoOs on the same foe. Downside : the opponent gets +4 to hit and damages against you while you use this ability. There's one where you get AoO if he misses you, you can find it in (amongst other books) the DragonMagazine Compedium. I don't think the feats (even combined) allow you to take more then one attack per opportunity (that is a very basic rules of AoO). Robillard gambits kind of make Karmic Strikes and the other feat not so usefull anymore, but you do so at risk so you need to choose which one you want and what you're ready to give up. If I recall correctly, they other feat work if you fight on the defensive (or use combat expertise), so you could cancel Karmic Strikes and fight on the defensive for a total AC penalty/bonus of +0 and get an AoO whether or not your opponent hits.
dman11235 12-06-07, 12:47 AM	Agile Riposte. That's the one if they miss. And you're right abour that second paragraph. My bad. Well, one attack per their attacks is still really good. Especially if you can get your AC high enough that the -4 penalty makes it so that they actually have a chance to hit on a 15, and then pump it higher. And then there's that other way. Take Kung Fu genius. Might help reduce MAD.
Huxleyboy 12-06-07, 06:54 AM	What is Kung Fu genius? Also, is there a good list of feats and skills anywhere out there? I've found them throughout different things I've looked at, but they're all so scattered.
Asurya 12-06-07, 07:50 AM	Kung-Fu genius lets you use your Int on all your Wis based monk ability (replace, not add)
Tordak 12-06-07, 08:35 AM	For a monk, improved natural weapon will work well for a start (essentially, you'll use the table for large sized monk for unarmed strikes damage). Combat reflexes is good (you could get it as a bonus at level 2, but you should take stunning fist because it has high prerequisites), so take it, and improved initiative is never a lost. Dodge, mobility and spring attack are all very good for monk because of his very high mobility, and dodge and mobility qualifies you for elusive target (CWarrior), which allow you (amongst other thing) to avoid some power attack and cause flanking opponents to attack each other. Freezing the lifeblood : you'll paralyze an opponent using your stunning fist (instead of stunning). Close-quarter fighting allow you to better avoid grappling, but improved grapple is good for you cause your unarmed strikes damage is high (look at grapple to see why this is good). If you take decisive strikes, then karmic strikes, Robillard's gambit or Agile riposte will give you the benefit of more versatile attacks of opportunity, as said in previous posts. Some very specific monk feats exist too, and they are quite interesting. Versatile unarmed strikes (PHB II) allows you to choose the type of damage your unarmed strikes deal (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning). Ki Blast (PHB II)allows you to project a ball af KI energy to a distance by spending stunning attempts (2 I think, and I don't remember the prereq. for the feat). Ring the golden bell (Dragon Compedium) allows you to, a number of time per day equal to 1+wis modifier i think, deal your unarmed strikes damage from distance (don't remember the exact range). Superior unarmed strikes (Tome of Battle) make your unarmed strikes count as 4 monk level higher, which can be good if you multiclass (or take a PrC not stacking with monk level). One not as well known combo is Empty hand mastery, found in oriental adventure. You need the following feats : power attack, sunder, ki shout, fist of iron, improved unarmed strikes, eagle claw attack (all found in PHB, CW and Oriental Adventures), as well as bluff 4 ranks. These will give you a synergy, called Empty Hand Mastery, which increase the damage of your unarmed strikes by one dice size category, as if you were one size category larger. Oh, I just realized I missread your question, there is a consolidated list you can acces from the main D&D page (on WoTC website) by typing feat in the search bar. The list will tell you the feat and which book to find it in (won't give much description though). There aren't so many skill, pretty much all of them are in the PHB.
Huxleyboy 12-06-07, 11:07 AM	No, this was a big help! Thanks! You've given me a lot of things to look at that I hadn't considered. I actually did pick up the Superior Unarmed Strike, and was looking at the Versatile strike as well... now I've got even more options. I guess it really depends on what type of monk I want to create. I've created a pretty good striker, but his AC is still pretty low. Thanks again!
dman11235 12-06-07, 08:18 PM	Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) has a larger list than the consolidated lists archive. It even has classes, monsters, and spells, well, look at it.
edventure 12-07-07, 10:32 AM	I actually did pick up the Superior Unarmed Strike, and was looking at the Versatile strike as well... now I've got even more options. It's really a waste of a feat slot. Get a Monk belt instead. +5 monk levels instead of +4 for SUS. Also the feat is absolutely useless once you hit 20 as Monk damage does not progress after that point. If you do keep it, look to retrain at that point. I don't know what the prereqs are for Versatile Strike, but it sounds like a better option.
dman11235 12-07-07, 04:40 PM	SUS is still good if you only have 11 or fewer monk levels (or effective). Thatnks to it I was able to get 2d10 base medium with only 6 levels in monk. I can do even better if I was able to get a Maonk's Tattoo (down to a lower monk level).