Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mostholy2 03-08-07, 04:34 PM	An interesting point was brought up in my game today. Can you defensive fight while doing a ToB maneuver strike? Now I am of the opinion that since you can defensive fight with either a standard action or full-round action, that defensive fighting takes no more time than a normal attack would, just at penalties to hit and bonus AC. However, my opponent points out that defensive fighting is listed as a standard action or a full-round action. Use of either action would then preclude the use of another standard action (ToB strike maneuver) when attacking defensively. Opinions on how to rule on this?
Mr_Teapot 03-08-07, 05:09 PM	Fighting Defensively is a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saStandardAction) or a full round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saFullRoundAction) and so can't be combined with martial strikes or a lot of other things, like Bull Rushes or Feinting. I'm not sure why it is that way, but that's the rule.
Kouk 03-08-07, 11:19 PM	Well, you always have stances.
fatal error 03-08-07, 11:32 PM	You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. This would seem to imply whenever you make an attack, you can choose to fight defensively for the round, much like Power Attack, or Combat Expertise. Now, what is an attack? Well, Bull Rush says: You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. Seems you can fight defensively while Bull Rushing, as it is an attack. Disarm, same story: As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. So, it would seem you can fight defensively during all these special combat actions that take the place of a normal melee attack. Now, for strikes. Given a strike that involves "As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack." (such as Adamantine Bones), I see no reason you could not take a -4 penalty on such an attack and gain a +2 to AC. Just as I see no reason you cannot also utilize Power Attack or Combat Expertise while executing strikes.
DogBackward 03-08-07, 11:36 PM	Or you could just realize that the ToB was made well after the PHb, and as such the rules in the Handbook don't take into account such things as maneuvers. People need to stop asking "Is it in the rules?" and start asking "Will it cause problems?" In this case, not really. Maybe if you're worried about it, apply a -2 penalty to any save DC's and lower the IL by 2 as well. Apparently the rules do support it anyway. I still stand by my statement. There's too much rule-mongering, and too little time actually looking at the balance and how it will actually affect the game.
Mr_Teapot 03-09-07, 02:26 PM	This would seem to imply whenever you make an attack, you can choose to fight defensively for the round, much like Power Attack, or Combat Expertise. The SRD info you quoted comes from a section titled "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saStandardAction)" which means that Fighting Defensively is a standard action, not an effect that can be applied to other attacks (like Power Attack, Trip, Disarm, etc.)
fatal error 03-09-07, 03:51 PM	The SRD info you quoted comes from a section titled "Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fightingDefensivelya saStandardAction)" which means that Fighting Defensively is a standard action, not an effect that can be applied to other attacks (like Power Attack, Trip, Disarm, etc.) So, because the section is titled Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action, I can't combine it with an attack? Because that interpretation of the title directly contradicts both the entire purpose of the ability (to be more defensive while still attacking) and the first sentence describing its use: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If it is a standard action all by itself, tell me how one can use it when attacking? Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action says you get to use it while attacking, Fighting Defensively as a Full Round Action says you get to use it when making a full attack. I'll admit, the title is a bit confusing, but Fighting Defensively is not an action, it is a modifier of an action (like Combat Expertise and Power Attack), Total Defense is an action. Note that it doesn't say, "as part of Fighting Defensively you make a melee attack." No, it says, "you can choose to fight defensively when attacking." Thus, whenever you are "attacking" you may do so with the -4 to hit, +2 to AC modifier of Fighting Defensively. As to why Fighting Defensively is listed in two separate places and by actions, it doesn't make much sense, but the actual text is quite clear.
mostholy2 03-09-07, 04:46 PM	Well the main argument that fighting defensively is an distinct standard or full-round action unto itself is the titles of the subtopics for the SRD description. Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action and Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action. However, defensive fighting is not listed in the table of actions (as total defense is). In addition, if you look at the actual descriptions after the titles, it would seem to imply that defensive fighting is not an action unto itself, but a choice for a type of attack.Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. AND Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.for the standard action description it is more vague, however, when looking at the full-round action description it clearly states that you can fight defensively when "taking a full attack action", implying that fighting defensively as a full-round action is not a separate and distinct action from the full attack action. I don't believe that fighting defensively should be considered as a distinct action different from an attack action, it is just a choice to make when you are choosing the attack action.
WinDReiN 03-09-07, 05:16 PM	I agree with fatal error... As I see it you could fight defensively while making disarm, grapple, sunder or trip attacks as well...
ibayboy 03-10-07, 08:23 AM	I agree with fatal error... As I see it you could fight defensively while making disarm, grapple, sunder or trip attacks as well... Only on the touch attack to start the grapple, not on grapple checks themselves. Grapple checks are not attacks.
WinDReiN 03-10-07, 08:30 AM	Agreed, grapple has an exception there...
ibayboy 03-10-07, 08:41 AM	Agreed, grapple has an exception there... No wurries, it came up in todays game. We found a luck stone, which gives a +1 to Ability checks, skill checks and saves. So we realised not to grapple or attacks, it is very specific.