DEX Bonus to damage feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

DEX Bonus to damage feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tetsubo
03-02-07, 11:16 PM I was reading the -Dawnforge- book -Ages of Legend- last night and found an interesting feat. It allows your DEX modifier as a damage bonus to finessable melee weapons. The prerequisites are DEX 15 and the Weapon Finesse feat. Does this seem balanced?

I rather like the idea...
jadehawk
03-02-07, 11:25 PM in one word, "no"...that aside, my 19th level rogue would like to know where to sign up.
Tetsubo
03-02-07, 11:27 PM in one word, "no"...that aside, my 19th level rogue would like to know where to sign up.

Why?
jadehawk
03-02-07, 11:36 PM well it definitely isn't uberpowerful, but it does allow some pretty nasty damage to a wide range of attacks for the right character. The problem is, any character who has weapon finesse likely has a good dexterity and a poor strength. That is why they took the feat in the first place, so the prerequisites are sort of moot. As far as game mechanics it makes sense though, like crossbow sniper in a way, though that is restricted to one weapon and only within 60 feet IIRC.

I would suggest making it more difficult to acquire, but not by increasing the dex requisite. I don't know what, but some additional feat requirement probably. Maybe combat expertise?...idonno
unusualsuspect
03-02-07, 11:36 PM As a stat, dexterity already has a LOT going for it.

1. AC. Applies against touch attacks, which, let's be honest, can be pretty damn important when the enemy mages start throwing around Desintegrates like nobody's business.

2. Saves. Reflex saves, to be exact. Taking 18 damage instead of 36 damage when your enemy fireballs you isn't a bad way to go.

3. Initiative. In the higher level game, initiative is, to a certain extent, basically the decider between flawless victory and very, very painful loss.

With Weapon Finesse, you've also added attack bonus to this already impressive list.

For the record, WotC has actually released a Dexterity to Damage feat, albeit one a lot more limited than the one you've outlined. It is called Shadow Blade, and can only be used with Shadow Blade discipline weapons (including but not limited to daggers and spiked chains) and only applies when you're in a Shadow Blade stance (Island of Blades being my favorite, but Assassin's Stance being decidedly awesome to the max when it can be attained).

The Shadow Blade feat applies the dexterity modifier as well as the strength modifier as usual, making it particularly nice for Spiked Chain use and TWFing.

Does the feat you outline give the Dexterity modifer as a bonus to damage INSTEAD OF strength, or AS WELL AS strength?
Drodain
03-02-07, 11:37 PM It's good but pretty much gets rid of the need for strength other than carrying capacity and a portable hole fixes that.
jadehawk
03-02-07, 11:51 PM It's good but pretty much gets rid of the need for strength other than carrying capacity and a portable hole fixes that.

Carry capacity, grapple checks, and some skills actually, but you are on the right track that they can nearly all be taken care of, carry capacity with portable hole, grapple checks with freedom of movement, and you can apply dex to climb and jump with the feat agile athlete...all is left after that is swim, so just get a swim speed or as a matter of coincidence my character has a ring of freedom of movement and a fly speed.

So basically, I've got a rogue that is attempting to abuse every part of dex he can. In fact, his first epic feats will be dexterous fortitude and dexterous will so that 1/rd he can roll a reflex for fort and/or will saves. Basically he applies dexterity to everything except his age.
Drodain
03-03-07, 12:04 AM Well I did not mean EVERYTHING strength did was gone. But a majority of it would be and in a hack n slash game everything would be easily dealt with as you've already said. (Good job abusing the system!)
Tetsubo
03-03-07, 12:56 AM As a stat, dexterity already has a LOT going for it.

1. AC. Applies against touch attacks, which, let's be honest, can be pretty damn important when the enemy mages start throwing around Desintegrates like nobody's business.

2. Saves. Reflex saves, to be exact. Taking 18 damage instead of 36 damage when your enemy fireballs you isn't a bad way to go.

3. Initiative. In the higher level game, initiative is, to a certain extent, basically the decider between flawless victory and very, very painful loss.

With Weapon Finesse, you've also added attack bonus to this already impressive list.

For the record, WotC has actually released a Dexterity to Damage feat, albeit one a lot more limited than the one you've outlined. It is called Shadow Blade, and can only be used with Shadow Blade discipline weapons (including but not limited to daggers and spiked chains) and only applies when you're in a Shadow Blade stance (Island of Blades being my favorite, but Assassin's Stance being decidedly awesome to the max when it can be attained).

The Shadow Blade feat applies the dexterity modifier as well as the strength modifier as usual, making it particularly nice for Spiked Chain use and TWFing.

Does the feat you outline give the Dexterity modifer as a bonus to damage INSTEAD OF strength, or AS WELL AS strength?

I would rule it as INSTEAD OF rather then AS WELL AS. The feat itself is a tad unclear...
dragoonspear
03-03-07, 11:26 AM To make this feat more balanced, I'd advise adding feat prequisites like weapon focus & weapon specialisation and say that the feat applies only to that weapon... although I'm not sure whether it would be balanced even then.
Johannixx
03-03-07, 11:55 AM I've used my own version of this feat in several campaigns, and I've always balanced it out with one drawback: it doesn't work against creatures that are immune to Sneak Attack. If strike placement doesn't matter, then what does Dexterity avail you in terms of additional damage?
jameswilliamogle
03-03-07, 01:10 PM The feat Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle already does this; it has prereq: one Shadow Hand Stance, which usually takes either a level of Swordsage or the feats Martial Study (which grants a maneuver, no prereq) and Martial Stance (which grants a stance known, ie Assasin's Stance for 2d6 Sneak Attack, and has prereq: one maneuver from the school).
Khan the Destroyer
03-03-07, 01:17 PM No. It is not overpowered. It just makes a dex-based fighter more viable.
jameswilliamogle
03-03-07, 01:29 PM I agree w/ Khan on this one. Every Dex based character will already have the feats you mention, though, so its essentially a "BAB prereq" feat. I dont think Shadow Blade is overpowered, either, but it requires either a dip for a low BAB class or 2 feats.

I can envision Halfling Monks all taking this feat at 3rd, though (sub level gives Weapon Finesse at 2, if I remember correctly). That isn't bad, really, but if you see a character going for a build like the Other Killer Gnome (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=633443), it just adds more damage earlier.
Qwicksilver
03-03-07, 01:44 PM Yeah the dex to dmg doesn't sound too bad. I would just say that dex to damage for me always implied precision damage, which people often say is covered under sneak attack or skirmish damage or other types of damage like that. I don't think it's a bad idea, game-mechanic wise, just that perhaps the mechanic deals with that kind of damage in other ways already.
jadehawk
03-03-07, 01:55 PM I've used my own version of this feat in several campaigns, and I've always balanced it out with one drawback: it doesn't work against creatures that are immune to Sneak Attack. If strike placement doesn't matter, then what does Dexterity avail you in terms of additional damage?

The Shadowblade feat sounds well balanced, but the feat that this topic was introduced about doesn't to me...And I like Johannixx's way of balancing it. I was trying myself to think of something like saying you need to be able to deal sneak damage as a prerequisite, but that would be unfortunate for straight up dex-warriors who want to access this feat. Only applying to creatures with discernible anatomies does indeed make dex make sense and balances the feat in my opinion. Good call.
Dheran
03-04-07, 07:15 PM I could see a reasonable version of this feat, given one important limitation: it applies to unarmed strikes only (and not other natural weapons). This basically makes it a Jiujitsu-type discipline, where you're manipulating the opponent to use their own weight and momentum against them. This limits the feat's power, as it's pretty hard to add magical bonuses to unarmed strikes.

Comments?
Fallenangel359
03-06-07, 11:19 AM Whats an odd character I made is a pixie swashbuckler rogue, ECL 10.

4LA pixie
3 swashbuckler
3 rogue

I roleplay it as a pirate.

I know pirates traditionally use cutlass, but I wanted rapier, so I went with rapier.

taking one level of swordsage with shadowblade would just make the character decimate, instead of being just good.
starfire311
03-06-07, 11:24 AM Whats an odd character I made is a pixie swashbuckler rogue, ECL 10.

4LA pixie
3 swashbuckler
3 rogue

I roleplay it as a pirate.

I know pirates traditionally use cutlass, but I wanted rapier, so I went with rapier.

taking one level of swordsage with shadowblade would just make the character decimate, instead of being just good.

lol, we have a half-dragon pixie swashbuckler 3/rogue 3 in our current game.
wonlee76
03-06-07, 04:36 PM Well, there are two WOTC ways to get this.

Champion of Correllon Lantheran (sp?): Prestige class that grants Dex to Damage that stacks with strength for all finesseable weapons.

Disadvantage: Pre-reqs for this prestige class are brutal but its Dex to Damage that does stack with Strength so that's a nice boost.

Shadow Blade: Dex to Damage (replacing strength) with Shadow Blade weapons only while in a Shadow Blade Stance. There are enough restrictions on this feat that it seems to be reasonable as a feat.

Looking at the OP's suggestion of Dex to Damage feat instead of Strength with a pre-req of Dex 15 and Weapon Finesse and the only restriction is that it works only a finesseable weapons is overpowered compared to other variations on this theme that have been published by WOTC.

The concept in general doesn't seem overpowered to me but there should be a hefty restriction on it in line with the way the Shadow Blade feat works from ToB.

Example Restrictions:
Only applies to 1 specific finesseable weapon (but can be taken multiple times for different finesseable weapons). Yhis one I think is the weakest restriction since most PCs rely on one specific weapon for most of their PC's life but it is still a pretty big restriction.

Can only be used as a standard action with any finesseable weapon.

My suggestion:
Finesseable Strike:
Pre-reqs: Int 13+, Dex 13+, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
Benefit: When picking this feat, you choose one specific weapon that can benefit from the Weapon Finesse feat. Whenever you use that weapon, you apply your dexterity modifier to damage instead of your strength modifier to damage.
Note: You can take this feat multiple times but each time you take this feat, you must choose a different weapon.
Kursk
03-06-07, 04:41 PM It's good but pretty much gets rid of the need for strength other than carrying capacity and a portable hole fixes that.

Wait, how about a Feat that let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are.
Moccanime
03-06-07, 05:11 PM My group have added a similiar feat and modified the weapon finesse feat. We uses the weapon group rule from Unearthed Arcana.

WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Proficiency with selected weapon group.
Benefit: With the light weapons of your selected weapon group you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.

IMPROVED WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13, Dex 15, Proficiency with selected weapon group, Weapon Finesse with selected weapon group, Weapon Focus with selected weapon group.
Benefit: With the light weapons of your selected weapon group you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.

There are two reasons for the str prerequisite: 1 it dosn't matter how agile you are, if you don't have the strength to put force behind your attack it won't cause much damage; 2 to prevent using str as a dumb stat too much.

For those who don't use weapon group rule, use weapon finesse as normal and improved weapon finesse with any light weapon the char have weapon focus with.
gwiber
03-06-07, 06:28 PM Could just make the feat apply ONLY to the use of piercing weapons. where damage is all about placement anyway. MIght even make an argument about it working for slashing too I suppose, say light slashing weapons. Were-as bludgeoning and heavier slashing weapons basically rely on just pounding the tar out of someone. Finesse there is not particularly needed.

Call it ...

-----

Finesse Damage
Requirements : BAB +5, Weapon Finesse.
Description : Character may apply Dexterity bonus to damage with any piercing weapons(Non-polearm), simple or light slashing weapon, instead of using the normal Strength bonus to damage.

-----

The High BAB would be an indicator of how much skill the character would need to start placing the weapon in such a fashion. And it's high enough that it isn't unbalancing by the time Fighters are doing horrible amounts of damage with their usual weapon of choice.
bob_the_great
03-06-07, 07:52 PM No no no no no no no.

The one scenario where I wouldn't mind this feat is with a fighter level prereq of at least 6 (preferably 10-12), but then again light fighters already have the Int to damage swashbuckler option. Maybe tell your player that it's ok as a fighter feat but it doesn't stack with swashbuckler's Int to damage to avoid abuse.

Dex classes like rogue get other things like sneak attack and skills to make up for reduced damage. They don't need to be doing Dex damage comparable to a fighter's Str damage. The only class which needs the help is a Dex-based fighter (using the fighter class).

Wait, how about a Feat that let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are.

I agree. My barbarian wants a feat which allows me to add my Str to AC. If your rogue gets to entirely ignore Str while still doing good damage I want to be able to entirely ignore Dex while keeping a high AC.
gwiber
03-08-07, 04:18 PM �let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are. �

Only problem with this is Strength really doesn't determine your �speed�, it does determine whether you are slowed due to bulk. But you aren't going any faster in the end because of greater strength. A 13 Str Human and a 18 Str Human go the same speed unencumbered.

Dex, however. Already has a precedent for doing damage based on precision, otherwise it would not factor into being able to hit someone for ranged weapons; and yes, being able to-hit someone does of course directly translate into damage.

The flip-side of the question is. Why does Strength get to do both to-hit, AND damage, and Dexterity only gets to do one of the two? If a feat exists that allows the ability of Strength to be replaced in determining to hit, why can't the other ability of strength also be moved based on the same reasons by using yet another Feat? That reason being attack precision.

Once again however, I would of course make the requirements on getting extra damage from dexterity high. You have to be very skilled at getting a weapon exactly where you want it to do the most damage.

As for the possibility of adding something to AC? I'd come closer to letting Con add to AC than Str, for obvious reasons. It already determines how tough you are by giving you extra Hit Points. Even then I wouldn't make a feat for this and allow it. It's bad enough you're adding a mechanic to the game that doesn't already exist with Dex becoming extra damage. But at least there is a partial precedent for it in the Feat rules (Dex adding to hit like Str does), and in the form of prestige commentary. I can't think of a precedent for Con ever having a modifier to AC in the rules or Prestige classes.
Nat_20
03-08-07, 04:27 PM Inst it already a class ability? Like the Champion of Corellon or something?
kalstrand
03-08-07, 08:37 PM Champion of Correllen lets you add Dex to damage and there is a prestige class (cant' think of name off the top of my head but someone will prolly come along with the name) that allows you to use Con to replace max Dex on your armor.
KurenaiYami
03-08-07, 08:43 PM You can also do it with the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle.
Mystic Theurge
03-08-07, 09:27 PM I'm not sure I see where a problem with this is. Really, a fighter with a high strengh can pretty much do this without feats, and better with using a two-handed weapon (1.5 x bonus damage). A rogue has to burn precious feats to even get this ability where he might be better served elsewhere. I don't have a problem with anyone trying to maximize the benefits of a particular ability with feats, especially when there are so many other cool feats out there, but that's just me.

I can see where the feat wouldn't apply to creatures immune to crit damage, though.
IbanezNinja
03-08-07, 09:33 PM I agree. My barbarian wants a feat which allows me to add my Str to AC. If your rogue gets to entirely ignore Str while still doing good damage I want to be able to entirely ignore Dex while keeping a high AC.

If only they made some sort of...heavy armor...in which you could have good ac with low dex....something like Mithril Full Plate? You know, it's considered medium armor so he can wear it.
Mystic Theurge
03-08-07, 09:47 PM If only they made some sort of...heavy armor...in which you could have good ac with low dex....something like Mithril Full Plate? You know, it's considered medium armor so he can wear it.That's where the high str allowing a higher AC comes in, and you still don't have to get a feat for it, just buy the right aquipment.

A suit of Mithril Full Plate for a Barbarian... That's quite expensive.
Kursk
03-09-07, 11:54 AM �let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are. �

Only problem with this is Strength really doesn't determine your �speed�, it does determine whether you are slowed due to bulk. But you aren't going any faster in the end because of greater strength. A 13 Str Human and a 18 Str Human go the same speed unencumbered.

I was being facetious. It's a balance issue for me as stated earlier re: dump stat.
bob_the_great
03-09-07, 02:50 PM If only they made some sort of...heavy armor...in which you could have good ac with low dex....something like Mithril Full Plate? You know, it's considered medium armor so he can wear it.

I want to wear light armor and keep my 40' movement, and mithrall chainmail is better anyway if I can take a feat for Str to AC.

I get your point, but I counter that there are already other ways for low Str characters to get damage. If this facetious "Str to AC" feat is redundant with mithrall full plate than "Dex to damage" is redundant with magic weapon enhancements and precision based damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tetsubo 03-02-07, 11:16 PM	I was reading the -Dawnforge- book -Ages of Legend- last night and found an interesting feat. It allows your DEX modifier as a damage bonus to finessable melee weapons. The prerequisites are DEX 15 and the Weapon Finesse feat. Does this seem balanced? I rather like the idea...
jadehawk 03-02-07, 11:25 PM	in one word, "no"...that aside, my 19th level rogue would like to know where to sign up.
Tetsubo 03-02-07, 11:27 PM	in one word, "no"...that aside, my 19th level rogue would like to know where to sign up. Why?
jadehawk 03-02-07, 11:36 PM	well it definitely isn't uberpowerful, but it does allow some pretty nasty damage to a wide range of attacks for the right character. The problem is, any character who has weapon finesse likely has a good dexterity and a poor strength. That is why they took the feat in the first place, so the prerequisites are sort of moot. As far as game mechanics it makes sense though, like crossbow sniper in a way, though that is restricted to one weapon and only within 60 feet IIRC. I would suggest making it more difficult to acquire, but not by increasing the dex requisite. I don't know what, but some additional feat requirement probably. Maybe combat expertise?...idonno
unusualsuspect 03-02-07, 11:36 PM	As a stat, dexterity already has a LOT going for it. 1. AC. Applies against touch attacks, which, let's be honest, can be pretty damn important when the enemy mages start throwing around Desintegrates like nobody's business. 2. Saves. Reflex saves, to be exact. Taking 18 damage instead of 36 damage when your enemy fireballs you isn't a bad way to go. 3. Initiative. In the higher level game, initiative is, to a certain extent, basically the decider between flawless victory and very, very painful loss. With Weapon Finesse, you've also added attack bonus to this already impressive list. For the record, WotC has actually released a Dexterity to Damage feat, albeit one a lot more limited than the one you've outlined. It is called Shadow Blade, and can only be used with Shadow Blade discipline weapons (including but not limited to daggers and spiked chains) and only applies when you're in a Shadow Blade stance (Island of Blades being my favorite, but Assassin's Stance being decidedly awesome to the max when it can be attained). The Shadow Blade feat applies the dexterity modifier as well as the strength modifier as usual, making it particularly nice for Spiked Chain use and TWFing. Does the feat you outline give the Dexterity modifer as a bonus to damage INSTEAD OF strength, or AS WELL AS strength?
Drodain 03-02-07, 11:37 PM	It's good but pretty much gets rid of the need for strength other than carrying capacity and a portable hole fixes that.
jadehawk 03-02-07, 11:51 PM	It's good but pretty much gets rid of the need for strength other than carrying capacity and a portable hole fixes that. Carry capacity, grapple checks, and some skills actually, but you are on the right track that they can nearly all be taken care of, carry capacity with portable hole, grapple checks with freedom of movement, and you can apply dex to climb and jump with the feat agile athlete...all is left after that is swim, so just get a swim speed or as a matter of coincidence my character has a ring of freedom of movement and a fly speed. So basically, I've got a rogue that is attempting to abuse every part of dex he can. In fact, his first epic feats will be dexterous fortitude and dexterous will so that 1/rd he can roll a reflex for fort and/or will saves. Basically he applies dexterity to everything except his age.
Drodain 03-03-07, 12:04 AM	Well I did not mean EVERYTHING strength did was gone. But a majority of it would be and in a hack n slash game everything would be easily dealt with as you've already said. (Good job abusing the system!)
Tetsubo 03-03-07, 12:56 AM	As a stat, dexterity already has a LOT going for it. 1. AC. Applies against touch attacks, which, let's be honest, can be pretty damn important when the enemy mages start throwing around Desintegrates like nobody's business. 2. Saves. Reflex saves, to be exact. Taking 18 damage instead of 36 damage when your enemy fireballs you isn't a bad way to go. 3. Initiative. In the higher level game, initiative is, to a certain extent, basically the decider between flawless victory and very, very painful loss. With Weapon Finesse, you've also added attack bonus to this already impressive list. For the record, WotC has actually released a Dexterity to Damage feat, albeit one a lot more limited than the one you've outlined. It is called Shadow Blade, and can only be used with Shadow Blade discipline weapons (including but not limited to daggers and spiked chains) and only applies when you're in a Shadow Blade stance (Island of Blades being my favorite, but Assassin's Stance being decidedly awesome to the max when it can be attained). The Shadow Blade feat applies the dexterity modifier as well as the strength modifier as usual, making it particularly nice for Spiked Chain use and TWFing. Does the feat you outline give the Dexterity modifer as a bonus to damage INSTEAD OF strength, or AS WELL AS strength? I would rule it as INSTEAD OF rather then AS WELL AS. The feat itself is a tad unclear...
dragoonspear 03-03-07, 11:26 AM	To make this feat more balanced, I'd advise adding feat prequisites like weapon focus & weapon specialisation and say that the feat applies only to that weapon... although I'm not sure whether it would be balanced even then.
Johannixx 03-03-07, 11:55 AM	I've used my own version of this feat in several campaigns, and I've always balanced it out with one drawback: it doesn't work against creatures that are immune to Sneak Attack. If strike placement doesn't matter, then what does Dexterity avail you in terms of additional damage?
jameswilliamogle 03-03-07, 01:10 PM	The feat Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle already does this; it has prereq: one Shadow Hand Stance, which usually takes either a level of Swordsage or the feats Martial Study (which grants a maneuver, no prereq) and Martial Stance (which grants a stance known, ie Assasin's Stance for 2d6 Sneak Attack, and has prereq: one maneuver from the school).
Khan the Destroyer 03-03-07, 01:17 PM	No. It is not overpowered. It just makes a dex-based fighter more viable.
jameswilliamogle 03-03-07, 01:29 PM	I agree w/ Khan on this one. Every Dex based character will already have the feats you mention, though, so its essentially a "BAB prereq" feat. I dont think Shadow Blade is overpowered, either, but it requires either a dip for a low BAB class or 2 feats. I can envision Halfling Monks all taking this feat at 3rd, though (sub level gives Weapon Finesse at 2, if I remember correctly). That isn't bad, really, but if you see a character going for a build like the Other Killer Gnome (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=633443), it just adds more damage earlier.
Qwicksilver 03-03-07, 01:44 PM	Yeah the dex to dmg doesn't sound too bad. I would just say that dex to damage for me always implied precision damage, which people often say is covered under sneak attack or skirmish damage or other types of damage like that. I don't think it's a bad idea, game-mechanic wise, just that perhaps the mechanic deals with that kind of damage in other ways already.
jadehawk 03-03-07, 01:55 PM	I've used my own version of this feat in several campaigns, and I've always balanced it out with one drawback: it doesn't work against creatures that are immune to Sneak Attack. If strike placement doesn't matter, then what does Dexterity avail you in terms of additional damage? The Shadowblade feat sounds well balanced, but the feat that this topic was introduced about doesn't to me...And I like Johannixx's way of balancing it. I was trying myself to think of something like saying you need to be able to deal sneak damage as a prerequisite, but that would be unfortunate for straight up dex-warriors who want to access this feat. Only applying to creatures with discernible anatomies does indeed make dex make sense and balances the feat in my opinion. Good call.
Dheran 03-04-07, 07:15 PM	I could see a reasonable version of this feat, given one important limitation: it applies to unarmed strikes only (and not other natural weapons). This basically makes it a Jiujitsu-type discipline, where you're manipulating the opponent to use their own weight and momentum against them. This limits the feat's power, as it's pretty hard to add magical bonuses to unarmed strikes. Comments?
Fallenangel359 03-06-07, 11:19 AM	Whats an odd character I made is a pixie swashbuckler rogue, ECL 10. 4LA pixie 3 swashbuckler 3 rogue I roleplay it as a pirate. I know pirates traditionally use cutlass, but I wanted rapier, so I went with rapier. taking one level of swordsage with shadowblade would just make the character decimate, instead of being just good.
starfire311 03-06-07, 11:24 AM	Whats an odd character I made is a pixie swashbuckler rogue, ECL 10. 4LA pixie 3 swashbuckler 3 rogue I roleplay it as a pirate. I know pirates traditionally use cutlass, but I wanted rapier, so I went with rapier. taking one level of swordsage with shadowblade would just make the character decimate, instead of being just good. lol, we have a half-dragon pixie swashbuckler 3/rogue 3 in our current game.
wonlee76 03-06-07, 04:36 PM	Well, there are two WOTC ways to get this. Champion of Correllon Lantheran (sp?): Prestige class that grants Dex to Damage that stacks with strength for all finesseable weapons. Disadvantage: Pre-reqs for this prestige class are brutal but its Dex to Damage that does stack with Strength so that's a nice boost. Shadow Blade: Dex to Damage (replacing strength) with Shadow Blade weapons only while in a Shadow Blade Stance. There are enough restrictions on this feat that it seems to be reasonable as a feat. Looking at the OP's suggestion of Dex to Damage feat instead of Strength with a pre-req of Dex 15 and Weapon Finesse and the only restriction is that it works only a finesseable weapons is overpowered compared to other variations on this theme that have been published by WOTC. The concept in general doesn't seem overpowered to me but there should be a hefty restriction on it in line with the way the Shadow Blade feat works from ToB. Example Restrictions: Only applies to 1 specific finesseable weapon (but can be taken multiple times for different finesseable weapons). Yhis one I think is the weakest restriction since most PCs rely on one specific weapon for most of their PC's life but it is still a pretty big restriction. Can only be used as a standard action with any finesseable weapon. My suggestion: Finesseable Strike: Pre-reqs: Int 13+, Dex 13+, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise Benefit: When picking this feat, you choose one specific weapon that can benefit from the Weapon Finesse feat. Whenever you use that weapon, you apply your dexterity modifier to damage instead of your strength modifier to damage. Note: You can take this feat multiple times but each time you take this feat, you must choose a different weapon.
Kursk 03-06-07, 04:41 PM	It's good but pretty much gets rid of the need for strength other than carrying capacity and a portable hole fixes that. Wait, how about a Feat that let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are.
Moccanime 03-06-07, 05:11 PM	My group have added a similiar feat and modified the weapon finesse feat. We uses the weapon group rule from Unearthed Arcana. WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Proficiency with selected weapon group. Benefit: With the light weapons of your selected weapon group you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls. Special: A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats. Natural weapons are always considered light weapons. IMPROVED WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Str 13, Dex 15, Proficiency with selected weapon group, Weapon Finesse with selected weapon group, Weapon Focus with selected weapon group. Benefit: With the light weapons of your selected weapon group you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Special: A fighter may select Improved Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats. Natural weapons are always considered light weapons. There are two reasons for the str prerequisite: 1 it dosn't matter how agile you are, if you don't have the strength to put force behind your attack it won't cause much damage; 2 to prevent using str as a dumb stat too much. For those who don't use weapon group rule, use weapon finesse as normal and improved weapon finesse with any light weapon the char have weapon focus with.
gwiber 03-06-07, 06:28 PM	Could just make the feat apply ONLY to the use of piercing weapons. where damage is all about placement anyway. MIght even make an argument about it working for slashing too I suppose, say light slashing weapons. Were-as bludgeoning and heavier slashing weapons basically rely on just pounding the tar out of someone. Finesse there is not particularly needed. Call it ... ----- Finesse Damage Requirements : BAB +5, Weapon Finesse. Description : Character may apply Dexterity bonus to damage with any piercing weapons(Non-polearm), simple or light slashing weapon, instead of using the normal Strength bonus to damage. ----- The High BAB would be an indicator of how much skill the character would need to start placing the weapon in such a fashion. And it's high enough that it isn't unbalancing by the time Fighters are doing horrible amounts of damage with their usual weapon of choice.
bob_the_great 03-06-07, 07:52 PM	No no no no no no no. The one scenario where I wouldn't mind this feat is with a fighter level prereq of at least 6 (preferably 10-12), but then again light fighters already have the Int to damage swashbuckler option. Maybe tell your player that it's ok as a fighter feat but it doesn't stack with swashbuckler's Int to damage to avoid abuse. Dex classes like rogue get other things like sneak attack and skills to make up for reduced damage. They don't need to be doing Dex damage comparable to a fighter's Str damage. The only class which needs the help is a Dex-based fighter (using the fighter class). Wait, how about a Feat that let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are. I agree. My barbarian wants a feat which allows me to add my Str to AC. If your rogue gets to entirely ignore Str while still doing good damage I want to be able to entirely ignore Dex while keeping a high AC.
gwiber 03-08-07, 04:18 PM	�let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are. � Only problem with this is Strength really doesn't determine your �speed�, it does determine whether you are slowed due to bulk. But you aren't going any faster in the end because of greater strength. A 13 Str Human and a 18 Str Human go the same speed unencumbered. Dex, however. Already has a precedent for doing damage based on precision, otherwise it would not factor into being able to hit someone for ranged weapons; and yes, being able to-hit someone does of course directly translate into damage. The flip-side of the question is. Why does Strength get to do both to-hit, AND damage, and Dexterity only gets to do one of the two? If a feat exists that allows the ability of Strength to be replaced in determining to hit, why can't the other ability of strength also be moved based on the same reasons by using yet another Feat? That reason being attack precision. Once again however, I would of course make the requirements on getting extra damage from dexterity high. You have to be very skilled at getting a weapon exactly where you want it to do the most damage. As for the possibility of adding something to AC? I'd come closer to letting Con add to AC than Str, for obvious reasons. It already determines how tough you are by giving you extra Hit Points. Even then I wouldn't make a feat for this and allow it. It's bad enough you're adding a mechanic to the game that doesn't already exist with Dex becoming extra damage. But at least there is a partial precedent for it in the Feat rules (Dex adding to hit like Str does), and in the form of prestige commentary. I can't think of a precedent for Con ever having a modifier to AC in the rules or Prestige classes.
Nat_20 03-08-07, 04:27 PM	Inst it already a class ability? Like the Champion of Corellon or something?
kalstrand 03-08-07, 08:37 PM	Champion of Correllen lets you add Dex to damage and there is a prestige class (cant' think of name off the top of my head but someone will prolly come along with the name) that allows you to use Con to replace max Dex on your armor.
KurenaiYami 03-08-07, 08:43 PM	You can also do it with the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle.
Mystic Theurge 03-08-07, 09:27 PM	I'm not sure I see where a problem with this is. Really, a fighter with a high strengh can pretty much do this without feats, and better with using a two-handed weapon (1.5 x bonus damage). A rogue has to burn precious feats to even get this ability where he might be better served elsewhere. I don't have a problem with anyone trying to maximize the benefits of a particular ability with feats, especially when there are so many other cool feats out there, but that's just me. I can see where the feat wouldn't apply to creatures immune to crit damage, though.
IbanezNinja 03-08-07, 09:33 PM	I agree. My barbarian wants a feat which allows me to add my Str to AC. If your rogue gets to entirely ignore Str while still doing good damage I want to be able to entirely ignore Dex while keeping a high AC. If only they made some sort of...heavy armor...in which you could have good ac with low dex....something like Mithril Full Plate? You know, it's considered medium armor so he can wear it.
Mystic Theurge 03-08-07, 09:47 PM	If only they made some sort of...heavy armor...in which you could have good ac with low dex....something like Mithril Full Plate? You know, it's considered medium armor so he can wear it.That's where the high str allowing a higher AC comes in, and you still don't have to get a feat for it, just buy the right aquipment. A suit of Mithril Full Plate for a Barbarian... That's quite expensive.
Kursk 03-09-07, 11:54 AM	�let's you add your Str bonus to AC like Dex? Ya know you can move the mass of your body faster the stronger you are. � Only problem with this is Strength really doesn't determine your �speed�, it does determine whether you are slowed due to bulk. But you aren't going any faster in the end because of greater strength. A 13 Str Human and a 18 Str Human go the same speed unencumbered. I was being facetious. It's a balance issue for me as stated earlier re: dump stat.
bob_the_great 03-09-07, 02:50 PM	If only they made some sort of...heavy armor...in which you could have good ac with low dex....something like Mithril Full Plate? You know, it's considered medium armor so he can wear it. I want to wear light armor and keep my 40' movement, and mithrall chainmail is better anyway if I can take a feat for Str to AC. I get your point, but I counter that there are already other ways for low Str characters to get damage. If this facetious "Str to AC" feat is redundant with mithrall full plate than "Dex to damage" is redundant with magic weapon enhancements and precision based damage.