Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dman11235 07-04-07, 06:17 PM	Is there a feat anywhere that lets you use dex instead of strength on trip attacks? Thanks in advance!
BugHunter 07-04-07, 07:22 PM	No, if using a spiked chain then weapon finesse can be used to help to ensure you can make the trip attempt. But the opposed check requires the attacker to use their strength (to pull the target off balanced) vs the target's dex or strength (to stay on their feet). But the improved trip feat and a weapon with the properity of sweeping (Magic of Faerun) both improve the chances.
dman11235 07-04-07, 10:26 PM	Dang, that's what I thought. I just makes sense to have a feat or something that adds dex to trip, cause there are ways to do it without strength.
Part-Human2 07-05-07, 12:27 AM	Sort of. The Confound the Big Folk tactical feat (RotW) has a way to make a trip check based on your Dex but it's very specific.
mostholy2 07-05-07, 12:04 PM	The Trip shot "thrown weapon tricks" from the Master Thrower PrC (CWar) allows you to do a trip attack using your DEX mod. +4 on a successful thrown weapon attack.
Kursk 07-05-07, 12:16 PM	Dang, that's what I thought. I just makes sense to have a feat or something that adds dex to trip, cause there are ways to do it without strength. Not always, especially against a large heavy target. Dex won't help you to trip a horse during combat.
dman11235 07-05-07, 01:48 PM	Not a horse, but a person. Take the legs out, pressure on the knees, there are ways. Some actually would work on a horse, it's just harder, +4 against trip for being a quad.
Thorn_Monk 07-05-07, 01:49 PM	Not a feat, but it's an easy houserule to justify -- and my DM has done so. Tripping can be performed just as easily (if not more so) with a dex-type attack as it is with a str-type one. I don't think a tripper ought to have to burn a feat on such a thing even if there were one.
Kursk 07-05-07, 01:56 PM	Not a horse, but a person. Take the legs out, pressure on the knees, there are ways. Some actually would work on a horse, it's just harder, +4 against trip for being a quad. Sorry, I've ridden and owned horses my whole life. In combat it won't fly against a horse. Maybe make the rule to be workable against s/g your own weight or lower?
tui 07-05-07, 02:02 PM	I don't think a tripper ought to have to burn a feat on such a thing even if there were one. Out of curiosity, are you basing this on logic or balance? Because those are pretty different things when it comes to D&D. I always think real hard before I let Dex or Str do something that isn't RAW, since those stats have so many other good uses. For example, I think it makes perfect sense for people to be able to use Dex instead of Str to hit, but RAW that requires a feat. (Although I have heard of people house-rule a free Weapon Finesse to anyone who wants it because it "makes sense.") All I'm saying is something that "makes sense" can lead to serious abuse at the hands of the right power gamer. How has Dex-to-Trip worked in your game? Has anyone tried to abuse it?
tui 07-05-07, 02:14 PM	Not a horse, but a person. Take the legs out, pressure on the knees, there are ways. Some actually would work on a horse, it's just harder, +4 against trip for being a quad. Sorry, I've ridden and owned horses my whole life. In combat it won't fly against a horse. Maybe make the rule to be workable against s/g your own weight or lower? I can't speak to whether tripping a horse with Dexterity is possible, but I just thought I'd point out that to resist a trip, a horse gets +4 for Large size, +4 for # of legs, and +2-+4 for Strength.
Kursk 07-05-07, 02:18 PM	I can't speak to whether tripping a horse with Dexterity is possible, but I just thought I'd point out that to resist a trip, a horse gets +4 for Large size, +4 for # of legs, and +2-+4 for Strength. Without requisite str you aren't going to trip a horse no matter how much dex you have. To illustrate: You have a str of 1 & a dex of 30. You aren't going to trip a horse. That's why str is the modifier & not dex.
Platstud 07-05-07, 02:25 PM	Probably not what you're looking for, but Eberron has a shifter feat(actually, it might be a PrC ability) that allows a shifter to take wolf form and then use dex to trip. I may be mangling this though, as I don't have the book with me.
tui 07-05-07, 02:29 PM	To illustrate: You have a str of 1 & a dex of 30. You aren't going to trip a horse. That's why str is the modifier & not dex. Yep, makes sense. Course if you have a Str 1 and Dex 30 and HIT them, you shouldn't do any damage. Unless you're a 20th level Rogue, in which case you could do 1+10d6, since you know "just where to poke them". I guess all I'm saying is that D&D isn't necessarily logical; what you can do with special training (feats or class abilities) in D&D doesn't always make a ton of sense. Are you saying that Dexterity shouldn't ever be usable for tripping, or just that you shouldn't freely be able to pick which you're going to use?
Kursk 07-05-07, 02:39 PM	Are you saying that Dexterity shouldn't ever be usable for tripping, or just that you shouldn't freely be able to pick which you're going to use? It would (at best) be used as a minor modifier (say 1/2 to 1/4 value) and not useful against s/g larger than yourself. I also don't allow char to be the modifier.
Ezurus 07-05-07, 02:48 PM	Yep, makes sense. Course if you have a Str 1 and Dex 30 and HIT them, you shouldn't do any damage. Unless you're a 20th level Rogue, in which case you could do 1+10d6, since you know "just where to poke them". I guess all I'm saying is that D&D isn't necessarily logical; what you can do with special training (feats or class abilities) in D&D doesn't always make a ton of sense. Are you saying that Dexterity shouldn't ever be usable for tripping, or just that you shouldn't freely be able to pick which you're going to use? I agree. If you use a weapon with the weapon finesse feat, I would say you should be able to take a feat and also be able to do a dex based trip. I don't think it would be an overly powerful feat or any more difficult to accept that a weak character might trip a horse with a spiked chain than a strong monk or fighter tripping the horse unarmed.
Thorn_Monk 07-05-07, 03:54 PM	Out of curiosity, are you basing this on logic or balance? Because those are pretty different things when it comes to D&D. I always think real hard before I let Dex or Str do something that isn't RAW, since those stats have so many other good uses. For example, I think it makes perfect sense for people to be able to use Dex instead of Str to hit, but RAW that requires a feat. (Although I have heard of people house-rule a free Weapon Finesse to anyone who wants it because it "makes sense.") All I'm saying is something that "makes sense" can lead to serious abuse at the hands of the right power gamer. How has Dex-to-Trip worked in your game? Has anyone tried to abuse it? I suppose I was speaking in terms of realism and experience (what you call logic), but I think it's fine in terms of balance too. As to realism: I don't want to be one of those guys who claims to be a martial arts master from the anonymity of their keyboards, but I did take a year of judo training and a year of karate -- no expert by any means, but I have some limited experience. Because I'm tall (and judo does not favor the tall), I did a lot with foot sweeps. Foot sweeps are dex attacks, not str attacks. The idea is that you try to time it so that you put a slight bit of pressure on your opponent's foot as he tries to place it, such that it places improperly after he is committed to relying on proper placement, and he falls down. You see this in the school lunch room too -- merely putting your foot out when when your target is walking by with his lunch tray, if timed correctly to catch him mid-step, will cause him to fall. No str exerted. Indeed, I would even go so far as to say that it is likely more common to trip using dex than str. Sure, you could, for example, take a baseball bat and swing it with great strength at one's legs and knock him off his feet, but I suspect that is far from common in any real form of fighting. Although I've never tripped a horse (of course, of course), I would imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to do so, even with low strength, using the same principles. Wait until the horse is about to put down a hoof, move it slightly, down it goes. It would be even more effective if the horse was running. Of course, in real life, that would require being in front of a charging horse, something I would not want to attempt! An elephant would be a different matter, however, because it's foot is so weighty it would take some str, even mid-stride, to move it even slightly. A horse's foot is not so weighty (it is easy to lift a horse's hoof to shoe it, for example). As to balance: I guess I would turn it around and ask, "what is unbalancing about it?" The target of the trip already gets to choose which stat to use, so the game mechanics already recognize that one may at least resist at trip using either means. Both dex and str are good "combat stats," meaning that neither would be a consistent dump stat for a melee fighter. Most meleeists have str as the highest stat anyway, so it's not likely to break the game. Since you asked, in our game this house-rule was used for my monk. He has low-ish str, but high dex. He has Improved Trip and uses dex to make the checks. He is no better than a str-based fighter with the same feat at tripping. Sure, the monk gets the benefit of dex to AC and skills, but the fighter would get the benefit of str to hit, to dmg, and to skills. It seems to me to be a wash. As for weapon finesse, I might even make the same argument. I would imagine that there are weapons that in real life cause damage much more so due to dex than str, so perhaps for those weapons a character should not have to burn a feat and a house-rule might be appropriate. However, I have no experience with melee weapons, so I won't go all the way out on that limb. If not a free house-rule, I certainly would encourage the creation of a feat to allow dex-tripping because it "makes sense" and is not unbalancing in any way.
tui 07-05-07, 06:22 PM	Thanks for sharing your experiences, Thorn_Monk; both IRL and in-game... I don't have anything real new to add; just that I think I'd definitely allow it as a feat.... and if a DM ruled you could use whichever you wanted, I wouldn't contest it. I think that's the closest I'll come to agreeing-without-agreeing. :)
Meep326 07-05-07, 06:33 PM	Sorry, I've ridden and owned horses my whole life. In combat it won't fly against a horse. Maybe make the rule to be workable against s/g your own weight or lower? If your smart a horse is almost as easy to trip as a person, it's all about hitting the right spot (explained as success in D&D.)
Kalis Atrud 07-05-07, 07:43 PM	Not a horse, but a person. Take the legs out, pressure on the knees, there are ways. Some actually would work on a horse, it's just harder, +4 against trip for being a quad. Not to get on your case, but those sound more like skill(aka improved trip feat or base attack bonus) than finesse. I don't know why, but people seem to think that if you use your strength mod for attacks you have no skill at all and are just a mindless brute when it is more there to represent things being easier to damage/knockdown/throw if you have a higher strength. All of those things would be easier if you had more strength to apply to the attempt. If you really want dex tripping, the setting sun style revolves around trips and lets you use your dex or strength mod as you like for the trip attempts.
Meep326 07-05-07, 07:48 PM	Not to get on your case, but those sound more like skill(aka improved trip feat or base attack bonus) than finesse. I don't know why, but people seem to think that if you use your strength mod for attacks you have no skill at all and are just a mindless brute. All of those things would be easier if you had more strength to apply to the attempt. So you want to add both? Precise placement of the tripping attempt is more important when trying to trip with dex, strength is more 'I knock your leg from you in a somewhat crass manner.'
Kalis Atrud 07-05-07, 08:20 PM	So you want to add both? Precise placement of the tripping attempt is more important when trying to trip with dex, strength is more 'I knock your leg from you in a somewhat crass manner.' Knowing where to put precise placements for tripping attempts is what improved trip's +4 represents(though I think that it should be a opposed bab+str rolls to make things easier for old martial sages with declining physical stats). Knowing where to place the trip is useless if you don't have enough strength to help you apply pressure to the point.
Thorn_Monk 07-06-07, 09:04 AM	So you want to add both? Precise placement of the tripping attempt is more important when trying to trip with dex, strength is more 'I knock your leg from you in a somewhat crass manner.' Actually, adding both str and dex DOES make sense ... but that definitely would be unbalancing.
Fuzzly 07-06-07, 09:28 AM	Knowing where to put precise placements for tripping attempts is what improved trip's +4 represents(though I think that it should be a opposed bab+str rolls to make things easier for old martial sages with declining physical stats). Knowing where to place the trip is useless if you don't have enough strength to help you apply pressure to the point. Thank god all those Judo and JJ guys spend 8 hours a week in the gym, or they'd be screwed.
Leilond 07-06-07, 10:30 AM	Pherapse it can sound logical, but it will be very unbalancing, making rougues as crazy whip trippers No, if a feat like that exists, I will sure forbit it
Kursk 07-06-07, 10:34 AM	If your smart a horse is almost as easy to trip as a person, it's all about hitting the right spot (explained as success in D&D.) Ya, I'll invite you over and as I bear down with my 18 hand horse you try and trip him since it is almost as easy as tripping me. :rofl:
tui 07-06-07, 11:13 AM	Pherapse it can sound logical, but it will be very unbalancing, making rougues as crazy whip trippers No, if a feat like that exists, I will sure forbit it You don't think Chain Trippers are bad enough? All you need for that is Strength... although if you want to go totally crazy with Combat Reflexes, you need some dex... but you can't make AoO with a whip anyway, so I don't see how a Dex-based whip tripper is even close to as bad as a Str-based Spiked Chain tripper.
Kalis Atrud 07-06-07, 05:53 PM	Thank god all those Judo and JJ guys spend 8 hours a week in the gym, or they'd be screwed. Judo and JJ guys are probably stronger than the average human. They also generally stick to fights in their own weight class and only fight humans(no bugbear ju jutsu stylists in the real world) with similar str modifiers. Also people who are serious about judo and jujutsu probably do work out with bodyweight exercises such as push ups to increase str. The ones with high dex have an easier time resisting the trips and throws from other judo/jujutsu practicing humans. Whether their dex would help them trip an ogre is something else entirely.
pupilofyah 07-06-07, 07:56 PM	Dang, that's what I thought. I just makes sense to have a feat or something that adds dex to trip, cause there are ways to do it without strength. leverage! there is a feat in a non-WotC book that using dex instead of str. the concept is based off of leverage. ask the DM if he will allow and their is nothing broken about it. the book is called ultimate feats. personally i will allow a player the chance to write their own feats with my help to keep them balanced.
pupilofyah 07-06-07, 08:02 PM	Knowing where to put precise placements for tripping attempts is what improved trip's +4 represents(though I think that it should be a opposed bab+str rolls to make things easier for old martial sages with declining physical stats). Knowing where to place the trip is useless if you don't have enough strength to help you apply pressure to the point. so the next time you trip over a cat remember that it is strength that counts not anything else. therefor you are weaker than a cat. if that isnt a good enough example i will simply assume that the cat is also smarter than you as well.
Kalis Atrud 07-07-07, 12:39 AM	so the next time you trip over a cat remember that it is strength that counts not anything else. therefor you are weaker than a cat. if that isnt a good enough example i will simply assume that the cat is also smarter than you as well. Who is the cat really smarter than again? You also realize that as long as the cat is off its feet without serious injury to the cat it is a trip right? The hardest part about knocking a cat down, without hurting the cat, is making the touch attack because it is a tiny creature that tends to react violently to sudden movements towards it. Or are you saying that a cat regularly intentionally trips you with its high dex(rather than getting under your feet and you trying to avoid hurting the cat)?
Dazzer 07-07-07, 02:16 AM	I actually take Hungar (style of kung-fu) and some Tai-Chi. I have been taught a move where, Mugger punches I dodge, place hands and arms in certain way and perform motion using a stance change to add a little more power without any effort. Mugger falls over It takes me almost no effort, but it requires alot of being in the right place. It also requires me to dodge the punch exactly in a certain way. It is a VERY difficult manuever to pull on anyone with even 1 day of training unless you yourself are very quick, and very good at what you do in terms of fighting style. Essentially, the more trained you are, the better you'd be at performing this type of action. The closest I can approximate it to in terms of DnD is either A feat, where if the attacker misses you get a free AOP that must used as a trip attempt, this trip attempt uses your dexterity rather than your strength. A manuever from the tome of battle that works along the same lines as above. Either way, it would NEVER work on a horse, it would never work on anything large than me in terms of size DnD terms. It would probably not work on anything smaller than me either for similar reasons. This is because the manuever requires me to place my front arm underneath their punching arm while placing my front leg behind their foot, and I'm essentially stepping right into them as I do it. If they were 14ft tall, I'd be placing my front arm...well...it wouldn't be under their punching arm...lets just say that shall we! Horses can't punch me...so it wouldn't work XD I hope this helps in terms of examples.
Fuzzly 07-07-07, 09:22 AM	Judo and JJ guys are probably stronger than the average human. They also generally stick to fights in their own weight class and only fight humans(no bugbear ju jutsu stylists in the real world) with similar str modifiers. Also people who are serious about judo and jujutsu probably do work out with bodyweight exercises such as push ups to increase str. The ones with high dex have an easier time resisting the trips and throws from other judo/jujutsu practicing humans. Whether their dex would help them trip an ogre is something else entirely. Increasing your strength would help, obviously. Increasing your physical attributes is always a good idea, but skill is more important. Judokas (hope I'm using the term correctly) and JJ players will work out, but there's a reason they train. The argument can continue either way, and in D&D is up for each group/DM to decide. However, who would have a better chance at tripping someone a lot stronger than them, a Judoka or a weight lifter? I don't want to get too deep into comparing D&D with RL, but tripping has it's own rules, all of which I won't pretend to know. More legs, more stability. Move an object's center of balance past it's base, and it will fall a lot easier. How do people tip cows? They push from the side. It's practically impossible for a human to trip a horse from the front/back, but it gets a lot easier when you go to the side. Dazzer- Nice example there, however I would point out that there are many ways to trip people than what you mentioned. I do have some questions about the technique you posted at the beginning/end (assuming it's the same one.) Does this require you to be in an open/closed stance? How are you safely avoiding their punch? Is this technique assuming the puncher is throwing a "John Wayne" type of hook? Do you have a vid of this technique? Sorry if I sound like I'm being nosy, I just want a clear picture.
Kalis Atrud 07-07-07, 02:03 PM	Increasing your physical attributes is always a good idea, but skill is more important. Judokas (hope I'm using the term correctly) and JJ players will work out, but there's a reason they train. Again, the reason I suggested that opposed BAB be rolled in addition to Str earlier. As written: Skill in combat = base attack bonus; Skill in tripping = Improved trip feat; Dex =/= skill.