Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Agroth5223 07-29-07, 04:01 PM	I'm pretty new to the game, to bare with me. I'm playing a Human Fighter/Cleric at level 17. List of feats known: -Weapon Focus(Hand Crossbow) -Weapon Specialization -Greater Weapon Focus -Greater Weapon Specialization -Two-Weapon Fighting -Improved Two-Weapon Fighting -Greater Two-Weapon Fighting -Point Blank Shot -Precise Shot -Rapid Shot -Ambidexterity(Netbook of Feats) -Two-Weapon Harmony(Netbook of Feats) -Oppertunity Shot(Netbook of Feats) -Expert Aim(Netbook of Feats) -Rapid Reload -Far Shot -Combat Reflexes -Lightning Reflexes -Extra Turning -Quicken Spell I'm trying to figure out how many attacks I'm supposed to get with my primary and off-hand weapons and at what BAB. Sorry if I'm being to general. If there are any questions, please, don't hesitate to ask. Thank you.
Unholy_King 07-29-07, 04:26 PM	Couple of questions first. 1. Are you a multi-class Fighter/Cleric, or are you a Gestalt? 2. -Ambidexterity(Netbook of Feats) -Two-Weapon Harmony(Netbook of Feats) -Oppertunity Shot(Netbook of Feats) -Expert Aim(Netbook of Feats) What do these feats do? Also, TWF already gives you Ambidexterity. 3. Rapid Re-load lets you reload your Hand crossbow as a free action, but reloading still requires two hands. You would have to drop one to reload the other. Or do you have something special I don't see to take care of this?
tyrecian 07-29-07, 04:47 PM	just based in 3.5 rules... not even looking at all those feats... you would get (assuming your BAB is +17, or you are a gestalt character... ) 4 attacks from BA @ +17, +12, +7, +2. With 2 weapon fighting you get another off-hand attack at -2 to all attacks, so now you add an attack. +15, +15 (offhand), +10, +5, +0, for 5 attacks. w/ improved2WF, you get an additional offhand attack @-5, for a 6th attack, or +15, +15(offhand), +10, +10 (offhand), +5, +0. W/ G2WF you get a 3rd offhand attack, at -10 :D for a 7th attack, sequence looking like +15, +15(offhand), +10, +10(offhand), +5, +5(offhand), +0 I couldnt find "Ambidexterity" in the Netbook fo feats search engine, and 2weapHarmony was about AoOs, so that looks like it. That is all melee bear in mind, the 2wf proficiencies should work with the Xbow but you are not going to get all bonuses because you must reload that guy. UK coverred that.
Agroth5223 07-29-07, 04:49 PM	Couple of questions first. 1. Are you a multi-class Fighter/Cleric, or are you a Gestalt? 2. -Ambidexterity(Netbook of Feats)(Negates penalties when using an off hand weapon) -Two-Weapon Harmony(Netbook of Feats)(Allows attacks of oppertunity with ranged weapon) -Oppertunity Shot(Netbook of Feats)(Allows ranged attacks of oppertunity, within 30ft.) -Expert Aim(Netbook of Feats)(If you take the Full Attack action when using a device missile weapon (e.g. bow, crossbow), you may choose to make a single attack with a range of 30 ft. or less using your Expert Aim. While you normally apply your Dexterity bonus only to attack, in this case you also apply your Dexterity bonus to damage.) What do these feats do? Also, TWF already gives you Ambidexterity.(But you still have a penalty.) 3. Rapid Re-load lets you reload your Hand crossbow as a free action, but reloading still requires two hands. You would have to drop one to reload the other. Or do you have something special I don't see to take care of this? My bad, I was reading an old sheet. Replace Far Shot and Quicken Spell with Quick Draw and Weapon Juggle(Netbook of Feats)(You can juggle weapons and similarly sized objects during combat. You can draw, sheathe, or shift them from hand to hand as a free action. You can even pick them up from the ground as a free action, as long as you can kick at them. You can do this at the start and end of your turn, but not on somebody else's turn or in the middle of an attack sequence. These actions never trigger attacks of opportunity.)
strenoth 07-30-07, 10:28 AM	The most important question: what is yoru base Attack Bonus? You told us you are a 17th level multiclass fighter/cleric, but you didn't tell us if you are fighter10/cleric7, or cleric 7/fighter10, or what ever combination of levels you have taken to equal 17, so we can't figure out your BAB. Once your BAB is known, in a full attack you get the nromal set of iterative attacks for that BAB (Note, the additional attacks listed in a given class is a short hand to show you your attacks, for multiclass characters you just add up the actual BAB, then figure your iterative attacks. like, a fighter 10 has +10 BaB, and a cleric7 has +5, so total BAB would be +15, giving you iterative attacks of +10 and +5) You have greater TWF, so assuming the above +15 BAB, BOTH sets of attacks would get reduced by the -2 penalty for TWF, so using the default primarcy/secondary weapon routine: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 before any other bonuses are calculated. if yoru bases BAB was +16, it would look like this: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1 GTW gets you a total of three attacks with yoru off hand weapon. add appropriate attacks form other feats as needed.
Eerongal 07-30-07, 11:04 AM	First of all, you have to be playing gestalt, because of the number of feats you have, so you would be a gestalt cleric/fighter, not multi-classed. Multiclassed/gestalt plays a big role in your number of attacks here, so that's important info. Second of all, HOW did you get so many feats? even with gestalting cleric/fighter my count of feats: 1st - 3 feats (1 fighter, 1 human, 1 first level) 2nd - 1 feat (1 fighter) 3rd - 1 feat (3rd level) 4th - 1 feat (1 fighter) 6th - 2 feat (1 fighter, 6th level) 8th - 1 feat (1 fighter) 9th - 1 feat (9th level) 10th - 1 feat (1 fighter) 12th - 2 feats (1 fighter, 12th level) 14th - 1 feat (1 fighter) 15th - 1 feat (15th level) 16th - 1 feat (1 fighter) ------------- 16 Feats your current feats: 1-Weapon Focus(Hand Crossbow) 2-Weapon Specialization 3-Greater Weapon Focus 4-Greater Weapon Specialization 5-Two-Weapon Fighting 6-Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 7-Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 8-Point Blank Shot 9-Precise Shot 10-Rapid Shot 11-Ambidexterity(Netbook of Feats) 12-Two-Weapon Harmony(Netbook of Feats) 13-Oppertunity Shot(Netbook of Feats) 14-Expert Aim(Netbook of Feats) 15-Rapid Reload 16-Far Shot 17-Combat Reflexes 18-Lightning Reflexes 19-Extra Turning 20-Quicken Spell Even if you were to use the flaws varient which allows you to take a flaw to get a feat, the max number allowed is 2, which puts you at 18 feats. Edit: Oops, hit the wrong number on my feats total, bringing it up by one
Paper_Weasel 07-30-07, 11:11 AM	I'm a bit confused as to how you have that many feats. I counted 20; even a straight human Fighter 17 should only have 16, by my count.
tarkin 07-30-07, 01:32 PM	If he is a gestalt cleric/fighter, he gets two domains. If both of those domains grant a feat, that brings his count upto 18 feats. Throw in two flaws and he has the full 20 feats.
Eerongal 07-30-07, 03:26 PM	the only domain i can think of that grants a feat of those listed there is the war domain, which provides weapon focus with the deity's weapon, and unless he has a custom deity, i dont think any deity's favored weapon is hand crossbow. But that's why i'm asking for clarification, i'm just coming here to scream 'liar', or knock his build, i just need to know more specifics about the build. Heck, he could have bonus feats from some house rule for all i know. Also, there's the possible chance that, as he said he's fairly new, maybe he screwed up somewhere along the lines and didnt know it. If so, i would happy to point this out so he can learn the system better. As far as answering his question, we do need to know quite a bit more to give him a definite answer on it, regardless of what the cases are. We can conjecture all day, but we can't give him the absoloute answer :P
Agroth5223 07-30-07, 03:36 PM	I'm sorry for all the confusion guys, my DM told me to make a character and level it up to 17. He said I had this amount of feats and everything was okayed when I was done. Like I said, I'm pretty new to this game and I just need to figure out how many attacks I can get with it.
Eerongal 07-30-07, 03:38 PM	I'm sorry for all the confusion guys, my DM told me to make a character and level it up to 17. He said I had this amount of feats and everything was okayed when I was done. Like I said, I'm pretty new to this game and I just need to figure out how many attacks I can get with it. heh, it's ok, that's what we're here for, to help you get things right. Now, how many levels of cleric, and how many of fighter?
Agroth5223 07-30-07, 03:41 PM	As far as I know they're both 17. That's what I was told.
tarkin 07-30-07, 05:03 PM	Then that is definitely called a Gestalt character, at least by the rest of the world. Also, I think that explains how your DM got the wrong number of feats. He did 15 feats as a 17th level Fighter plus 5 feats for being a 17th level cleric (3/6/9/12/15) Which is wrong by the way. A Gestalt fighter/cleric only gets the straight 15 feats for being a fighter, none for cleric. Ask your DM if he is sure he is giving you the right number of feats, he may just be House Ruling some wierd home brew Gestalt game.
Eerongal 07-30-07, 05:51 PM	also, i would just like to say that if you and your group (i know you are, but i dont know about the group) are all new to D&D, i would highly reccomend against gestalt AND high level, especially all in one game like that. Now, i'm not going to tell you NOT to do it, just that i reccommend starting out with basic, low level adventuring, because it's easier to learn the ropes than with the former, as it requires a bit more intricate knowledge of the rules Now, that being said, you BAB is going to be 17/12/7/2 for your base primary hand. Now with your offhand, your BAB will be 17/12/7, note that this once again is only your BAB, which doesnt take into account your str, any feats (except of course TWF chain, because that adds the attacks with the other hand), or the negative penatly assosciated with two-weapon fighting. Now if you want your total attack bonus, which is your BAB +all bonuses - all penalties, that's different. Now, i don't know all of the feats on your list, namely: -Ambidexterity(Netbook of Feats) -i know the 3.0 version, but that no longer applies in 3.5, and is outdated. I dont know if this is different -Two-Weapon Harmony(Netbook of Feats) -Oppertunity Shot(Netbook of Feats) -Expert Aim(Netbook of Feats) The only ones that look like they would affect your attack bonus with a melee weapon are the first two, but i dont know what they do. The others look like they are for ranged weapons, and may potentially apply if you're dual-wielding range
Agroth5223 07-31-07, 03:27 PM	I agree that that it is very difficult starting out with a gestault character at such a high level, and my team and I are voting to scrap this campain to start an easier, less complicated one. Thank you for all your help guys, and I hope that I will be able to do the same for you somewhere along the road.
Sigfried Trent 07-31-07, 04:27 PM	I would guess that the DM and the players don't have a full grasp of the rules. Or.. they are playing a level 34 character... (scary!) although that would peg the number of feats he has about perfectly. BTW: Ambidexterity from the NBOF lets you do full strength damage with off hand attacks instead of the normal 1/2 strenth bonus to damage. Two Weapon Harmony lets you use the same weapon off hand as main and not suffer the additional penalty for a non-light off hand weapon. None of the NBOF feats he lists will effect the number of attacks.