Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Damned slayer 04-03-08, 12:52 PM	Is there anyway to stop someone from using diplomacy (or make it scale per level or something) because that some PC (lvl 6-8) can easily make those DC20 check It wouldn't be long before they could get all towns to be helpful with them (or at least key NPC) because they like begging for help on those Epic NPCs
Mercurius 04-03-08, 01:00 PM	In general, I prefer Rich Burlew's Diplomacy Varient (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). It's a lot better at dealing with Diplomacy without allowing quite the "Diplomancer" cheese that dedicated characters can pull off.
Wheldrake 04-03-08, 03:22 PM	In general, I prefer Rich Burlew's Diplomacy Varient (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). It's a lot better at dealing with Diplomacy without allowing quite the "Diplomancer" cheese that dedicated characters can pull off. I second the Burlew diplomacy fix. Elegant and simple. Pre-print it and slip it in a plastic page-protector, or paste it to your DM shield, and your golden. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
squidyak 04-03-08, 03:51 PM	I prefer just saying "no, it doesn't work"
katarl 04-03-08, 04:32 PM	I prefer just saying "no, it doesn't work" Unfortunately, if you do that, then players can be discouraged, as they will see you (quite rightfully) as breaking the rules of the game to suit your own purposes. Also, it ruins the legitimate diplomancer character, who talks rather than fights.
squidyak 04-03-08, 04:42 PM	Unfortunately, if you do that, then players can be discouraged, as they will see you (quite rightfully) as breaking the rules of the game to suit your own purposes. Also, it ruins the legitimate diplomancer character, who talks rather than fights. Only power gamers would get discouraged. If you roll a die and expect to be able to talk a pirate into not only leaving your ship be, but also to be given some treasure for your troubles you don't belong in my game. As a DM I can't break the rules, I am the rules. If a player doesn't abuse the system as is easily done with diplomacy, we'll get along just fine. When you want to do something with diplomacy roll the skill check and I will determine what happens based upon what you are trying to do and how difficult that task is. The diplomacy tables mean nothing to me.
Cuindless 04-03-08, 05:08 PM	Squid - What do you mean by power gamer? To the OP: One of the players in my current campaign is an optimized diplomancer bard/heartwarder, so I have ample experience dealing with Diplomacy. If you don't want to use the diplomacy variant, you could try these: First - Circumstance penalties. The greatest negotiator in the world has a difficult time overcoming decades of mental conditioning, brainwashing or a more powerful diplomancer. Of course, the player might think you're saying "no it doesn't work", but at least you'll know you're following the rules. Hopefully your players trust you as much as mine do. Second - Mindless enemies. You can't negotiate with the undead, the borg or the hive. Third - Ambush. Just don't give them time to negotiate. It's much harder to use Diplomacy when the arrows, swords and magic is flying around you. Then, that diplomancer better have something else up their sleeve.
ciaran 04-03-08, 07:14 PM	A player should be allowed to shine with any ability they have invested much of their character options into. If it is problem like you say, I would encourage the player to do more than just roll - to also "role"play the encounter. Many townspeople who have their attitude changed in a positive manner still may not have much to offer the party aside from some information or a warm place to sleep. As was mentioned above, add circumstance modifiers but certainly don't cheat players of an opportunity.
DeathlessJuan 04-03-08, 07:56 PM	You guys actually let your players roll the dice for diplomacy and or social realted skills? o.0 There is your mistake right there. Those rolls should be made by the DM and never seen by players. Only the DM will know how a certain NPC, that the DM created, would react to such a roll. Seriously, that would clear up 99% of your issues right there. If you must, at least let the NPC counter with a Sense Motive or similar roll.
squidyak 04-03-08, 08:00 PM	Squid - What do you mean by power gamer? Someone who uses the rules to create overly powerful characters. Uberdiplomacy is one of the easiest ways for a powergamer to achieve that end.
squidyak 04-03-08, 08:01 PM	You guys actually let your players roll the dice for diplomacy and or social realted skills? o.0 There is your mistake right there. Those rolls should be made by the DM and never seen by players. Only the DM will know how a certain NPC, that the DM created, would react to such a roll. Seriously, that would clear up 99% of your issues right there. If you must, at least let the NPC counter with a Sense Motive or similar roll. When a player knows he has a +40 to diplomacy, rolling behind a screen isn't going to help.
Kursk 04-03-08, 08:02 PM	Is there anyway to stop someone from using diplomacy (or make it scale per level or something) because that some PC (lvl 6-8) can easily make those DC20 check It wouldn't be long before they could get all towns to be helpful with them (or at least key NPC) because they like begging for help on those Epic NPCs I don't treat diplomacy as a charm type spell. A dice roll never overrides common sense. Take a page from 1st Ed DMG.
Kalis Atrud 04-03-08, 08:24 PM	I don't treat diplomacy as a charm type spell. A dice roll never overrides common sense. Take a page from 1st Ed DMG. A dice roll lets a rogue be in the center of an explosion and take no damage, lets a fighter kill a dragon, and allows people to fight while standing on top of saddles, among other things.
Cuindless 04-03-08, 08:34 PM	Someone who uses the rules to create overly powerful characters. Uberdiplomacy is one of the easiest ways for a powergamer to achieve that end. Now define overly powerful. Is being able to turn into a Dire Triceratops and still cast 9th level spells overly powerful?
wraithstrike 04-03-08, 08:52 PM	I did not read all the post so don't get upset if I repeat something. First thing to consider, well not necessarily first but it is still important is that it takes a certain amount of time to use diplomacy(minutes). Another thing to a DC 20 check is not that hard even for an unoptomized character to make. A 6 level character can put 9 ranks into a skill, and if he has a +2 modifier not including synergies or magic item he already has a +11 which means he only needs a 9 or less. Another thing I do is put in circumstance modifiers. One of my players was on the way to talking the party past an encounter when another PC shot an arrow at the leader of the NPC's. After that there was nothing that could be said to stop combat. At that point no nonmagical solution is going to convince the NPC's to back down, at least not those NPC's. I also use Rich's diplomacy method. There is nothing wrong with rolling for diplomacy. Remember it is the character's skill not the players that is being tested. I also don't allow noncharasmatic(sp) PC's to use the player's real life skills to negotiate. If he wanted to be able to negotiate he should not have dumped charisma As long as the player does not do something stupid his character determines what happens.
nightwyrm 04-03-08, 09:01 PM	Rich's diplomacy mod makes a lot more sense. But as for arguing about how common sense should be applied to D&D, there's a post somewhere on the board that describes how even skills like jump or using survival to track essentially blows pass the point of everyday common sense by the time someone gets to lv 9. I'll try to find it.
wraithstrike 04-03-08, 09:50 PM	Rich's diplomacy mod makes a lot more sense. But as for arguing about how common sense should be applied to D&D, there's a post somewhere on the board that describes how even skills like jump or using survival to track essentially blows pass the point of everyday common sense by the time someone gets to lv 9. I'll try to find it. I understand that D&D involves a high level of suspension of belief, but there are some things talent won't overcome. If I punch someone in the face I could be the best talker in the world, but I am sure that if it is definitely intentionally I would have the same chance as altering reality as stopping them from retaliating.* *There might be cops or 20 guys behind me(to back me up), but without some outside influence I expect to get punched in return, and even those circumstances would not stop some people.
nightwyrm 04-03-08, 10:01 PM	I understand that D&D involves a high level of suspension of belief, but there are some things talent won't overcome. If I punch someone in the face I could be the best talker in the world, but I am sure that if it is definitely intentionally I would have the same chance as altering reality as stopping them from retaliating.* *There might be cops or 20 guys behind me(to back me up), but without some outside influence I expect to get punched in return, and even those circumstances would not stop some people. Oh, my post about common sense wasn't directed at you, sorry. I find your example to be quite reasonable. It was more towards someone who said that diplomacy isn't a charm spell. My personal view on that is that if you somehow have a +40 to diplomacy, you basically are a walking charm spell.
squidyak 04-03-08, 10:15 PM	Now define overly powerful. Is being able to turn into a Dire Triceratops and still cast 9th level spells overly powerful? A 3rd level elf with an 18 charisma, 6 ranks in diplomacy, 5 ranks in bluff, 5 ranks in knowledge (nobility), 5 ranks in sense motive, skill focus diplomacy and the negotiator feat has a diplomacy score of +23. A roll of 2 on a 20 sided die changes a hostile great wyrm red dragon into an indifferent great wyrm red dragon. That same character can make a great wyrm red dragon go from hostile to friendly on a roll of 1 by level 13. There is no saving throw. A lone 13th level character dedicated to diplomacy can defeat a cr26 encounter with automatic success and no save by just saying a few words. All for the cost of 2 feats and some skill points. That is overpowered.
Cuindless 04-03-08, 10:51 PM	A 3rd level elf with an 18 charisma, 6 ranks in diplomacy, 5 ranks in bluff, 5 ranks in knowledge (nobility), 5 ranks in sense motive, skill focus diplomacy and the negotiator feat has a diplomacy score of +23. A roll of 2 on a 20 sided die changes a hostile great wyrm red dragon into an indifferent great wyrm red dragon. That same character can make a great wyrm red dragon go from hostile to friendly on a roll of 1 by level 13. There is no saving throw. A lone 13th level character dedicated to diplomacy can defeat a cr26 encounter with automatic success and no save by just saying a few words. All for the cost of 2 feats and some skill points. That is overpowered. And it takes one minute of uninterrupted talking. If a DM allows that to happen, that's his fault. The rules don't state that the dragon has to sit and wait until the bard is done. Also, there's ambush. I understand that D&D involves a high level of suspension of belief, but there are some things talent won't overcome. If I punch someone in the face I could be the best talker in the world, but I am sure that if it is definitely intentionally I would have the same chance as altering reality as stopping them from retaliating.* *There might be cops or 20 guys behind me(to back me up), but without some outside influence I expect to get punched in return, and even those circumstances would not stop some people. Best place for a circumstance penalty if I ever saw one. That, and see what I said above about it taking a full minute of talking. Likely, he punches you back before the minute is up. Diplomacy isn't broken, just misapplied and misunderstood. Ask my player with their level 14 half-elf bard/heartwarder diplomancer (+38 diplomacy check) how often she gets to use it against opponents...
squidyak 04-03-08, 10:59 PM	And it takes one minute of uninterrupted talking. If a DM allows that to happen, that's his fault. The rules don't state that the dragon has to sit and wait until the bard is done. Also, there's ambush. Diplomacy isn't broken, just misapplied and misunderstood. Ask my player with their level 14 half-elf bard/heartwarder diplomancer (+38 diplomacy check) how often she gets to use it against opponents... One minute isn't hard to come by. That's pretty much any situation in which combat doesn't start immediately. The character can also take a -10 penalty to complete the action as a full round action. Giving a lone 13th level character a 50/50 shot at completely neutralizing a cr 26 is overpowered.
StruckingFuggle 04-03-08, 11:11 PM	I found a good solution for Diplomacy. "Diplomacy works on PCs, too".
nightwyrm 04-04-08, 12:02 AM	Ah.. here's the link about skills and what a 9th lv char can do, I don't know how to do the quote and link thing so just click on the link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=12393614#post12393614
wraithstrike 04-04-08, 12:27 AM	One minute isn't hard to come by. That's pretty much any situation in which combat doesn't start immediately. The character can also take a -10 penalty to complete the action as a full round action. Giving a lone 13th level character a 50/50 shot at completely neutralizing a cr 26 is overpowered. Unless Mr BBEG is monologing(sp?) that full round wont ever take place. PC: "I am going to...." DM: interruption takes place...."Roll initiative."
Cuindless 04-04-08, 12:33 AM	Unless Mr BBEG is monologing(sp?) that full round wont ever take place. PC: "I am going to...." DM: interruption takes place...."Roll initiative." Couldn't have phrased it better myself. Any DM who simply allows the roll is being steamrollered by their players. I've already given three good examples of dealing with Diplomancy without changing the RAW.
wraithstrike 04-04-08, 12:39 AM	I understand that D&D involves a high level of suspension of belief, but there are some things talent won't overcome. If I punch someone in the face I could be the best talker in the world, but I am sure that if it is definitely intentionally I would have the same chance as altering reality as stopping them from retaliating.* *There might be cops or 20 guys behind me(to back me up), but without some outside influence I expect to get punched in return, and even those circumstances would not stop some people. I thought you were making the "common sense/real world logic can't be applied in D&D" argument, sorry about that.* *I do realize that sometimes you do have to look the other way, to anyone who was about to throw the "survive the fireball" example out there.
squidyak 04-04-08, 12:40 AM	Unless Mr BBEG is monologing(sp?) that full round wont ever take place. PC: "I am going to...." DM: interruption takes place...."Roll initiative." Or if anybody gives an ultimatum. Or any other social interaction of any kind.
squidyak 04-04-08, 12:42 AM	Couldn't have phrased it better myself. Any DM who simply allows the roll is being steamrollered by their players. I've already given three good examples of dealing with Diplomancy without changing the RAW. If you run just a hack and slash campaign you're right. If you have any kind of role playing it can be a problem. It sounds like your argument is to never have more than one minute of rping outside of combat.
wraithstrike 04-04-08, 12:47 AM	If you run just a hack and slash campaign you're right. If you have any kind of role playing it can be a problem. It sounds like your argument is to never have more than one minute of rping outside of combat. I have no problem with players using diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff, but there are times when they just don't work. You might roll a high enough intimidate check to frighten a balor, but unless you have done something of significant worth, his thousand of years of having to watch out for backstabbers, experience in the blood wars, and the fact that he is a balor and you are mortal etc.... just gave you a big negative on that intimidate check. Another example is 20/20/confirm rule=instant death rule. If a commoner attacks a dragon(great wyrm) with a table leg, and triple 20's the dragon still does not die. Sometimes you just have to look past the rules.
StruckingFuggle 04-04-08, 12:50 AM	Unless Mr BBEG is monologing(sp?) that full round wont ever take place. PC: "I am going to...." DM: interruption takes place...."Roll initiative." ... What, your players can't take full-round actions in combat? Or your BBEG defeats them in one round? Another example is 20/20/confirm rule=instant death rule. If a commoner attacks a dragon(great wyrm) with a table leg, and triple 20's the dragon still does not die. Sometimes you just have to look past the rules. That's... not a rule.
squidyak 04-04-08, 12:52 AM	I have no problem with players using diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff, but there are times when they just don't work. You might roll a high enough intimidate check to frighten a balor, but unless you have done something of significant worth, his thousand of years of having to watch out for backstabbers, experience in the blood wars, and the fact that he is a balor and you are mortal etc.... just gave you a big negative on that intimidate check. Another example is 20/20/confirm rule=instant death rule. If a commoner attacks a dragon(great wyrm) with a table leg, and triple 20's the dragon still does not die. Sometimes you just have to look past the rules. That's been my point this whole thread. Some people feel that doing that is cheating the players though. I flat out ignore almost all the DCs in the PHB, as they're ridiculously low. It's going to be as tough as I say it is. If you roll a 55 on your diplomacy I'll take that into account, but don't expect magic to happen.
wraithstrike 04-04-08, 12:53 AM	... What, your players can't take full-round actions in combat? Or your BBEG defeats them in one round? That's... not a rule. Fighting someone is also a negative modifier(not RAW)...see my previous post The 20/20..instakill is a variant rule in the DMG
Cuindless 04-04-08, 02:12 AM	I think of it more like this: Scenario 1: Int 6 orc get bored with talky human. Smash before time up. Scenario 2: Int 26 dragon sees what you're up to well before you've convinced him and attacks you. Scenario 3: Hoards of mindless undead. Scenario 4: Your attackers have been told "Don't let them talk, just attack." So they do. Scenario 5: Your attackers have been brainwashed from day 1 to ignore your "sweet sounding lies" and attack you, no matter what. Scenario 6: The evil baron has heard of your notoriously sweet tongue and orders his guards to attack you mid-sentence. Scenario 7: You actually do convince a monster to be your friend! Yay! Good for you! Scenario 8: The peasants love you. Scenario 9: Everyone who talks to you is your friend! This list could go on for pages. The OP was asking for ways to deal with diplomacy based characters so that his game didn't become a series of one-roll wins. These are all valid options. Never did I say that my campaign was one long gorefest of combat with no roleplay. What I did say is that diplomacy doesn't always work and there are perfectly viable solutions within the RAW. Jeez...
StruckingFuggle 04-04-08, 02:20 AM	And my point is-ish that except for 3, none of 1-6 are on their own functional solutions by RAW.
Cuindless 04-04-08, 02:50 AM	And my point is-ish that except for 3, none of 1-6 are on their own functional solutions by RAW. Wait, you're saying that attacking before the minute is up isn't supported by RAW? How so... PS> There really isn't a RAW. It's RAIIT...
StruckingFuggle 04-04-08, 03:15 AM	Wait, you're saying that attacking before the minute is up isn't supported by RAW? How so... Oh, sure, you can do that, and it prevents that; but nothing says the rushed "do it as a full-round action at a -10 penalty" can't be used in combat. And some specifics: "Your attackers have been told "Don't let them talk, just attack." So they do." D&D does not work this way. They can attack, but unless they're silenced, or silencing you, you still get to talk, and they'll still hear it. "Your attackers have been brainwashed from day 1 to ignore your "sweet sounding lies" and attack you, no matter what." Unless they have some sort of immunity to diplomacy, all that 'brainwashing' won't work except maybe as a circumstance bonus, without dm fiat. "The evil baron has heard of your notoriously sweet tongue and orders his guards to attack you mid-sentence." Again, you can still take a full-round action and do it rushed.
Cuindless 04-04-08, 03:38 AM	Oh, sure, you can do that, and it prevents that; but nothing says the rushed "do it as a full-round action at a -10 penalty" can't be used in combat. True. That's why ambush and Improved Initiative are so handy. And some specifics: "Your attackers have been told "Don't let them talk, just attack." So they do." D&D does not work this way. They can attack, but unless they're silenced, or silencing you, you still get to talk, and they'll still hear it. Throat Punch, Staggering Strike and Stunning Fist are all good options too. "Your attackers have been brainwashed from day 1 to ignore your "sweet sounding lies" and attack you, no matter what." Unless they have some sort of immunity to diplomacy, all that 'brainwashing' won't work except maybe as a circumstance bonus, without dm fiat. Actually, the circumstance bonus was what I was kind of implying. I mentioned it a few posts ago. "The evil baron has heard of your notoriously sweet tongue and orders his guards to attack you mid-sentence." Again, you can still take a full-round action and do it rushed. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Just what do you think a baron does all day anyway? I'm sure he can convince his troops to fight instead, especially with the court minstrel and the court sorcerer both aiding another or making checks of their own. In fact, a circumstance bonus for loyalty seems to be just what the DM ordered...
Aleolus 04-04-08, 04:12 AM	On this subject, but one thing to say, have I. http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Aleolus/1195616508154.jpg :rofl: Seriously, though, if you wanna make Diplomacy checks harder to make, then have your guys with massive mods for Sense Motive, since the opposed check for Diplo is Sense Motive.
Kursk 04-04-08, 09:51 AM	A dice roll lets a rogue be in the center of an explosion and take no damage, lets a fighter kill a dragon, and allows people to fight while standing on top of saddles, among other things. You obviously didn't read the page. :rolleyes:
Damned slayer 04-04-08, 10:27 AM	wow so much fast replies lol 1st thing I let them use any skill and it's 70%RP 30%fight 2- My major problems comes when they use it on NPC that aren't ennemies they use it on allies to try to convince them to help or buy out at higher price or sell cheaper (the problem is that some NPCs that are allies are more than 4times their lvl and could screw lot of quest without even moving) 3- doesn't say you have to replie to ppl so a full round action is really hard to be stopped 4- just noticed didn't read 2nd page 5- it would be really stupid not to allow him to use that skill because it's a prerequisite for a PrC edit: 6- diplocy is contered by diplomacy in a set of circumstances (trial, ...) 7- how would you handle converting ppl to a new religion (best I found was diplomacy)
Count Arioch the 28th 04-05-08, 12:04 AM	First off, Rich Berlew's variant only delays the inevitable. You just need a higher check to do things, which is totally achievable easily. Not to mention that you can charm person someone to friendly, then diplomacy them up to helpful very easily, which is permanent. In my world, evil warlords either order their minions to plug their ears, or use deaf minions, or minions that don't speak common to fight charismatic heroes, simply because a higher level mastermind will know that a charismatic heroe can and will diplomacy the crap out of them.
Cuindless 04-05-08, 12:10 AM	So, Count, what do you think of my techniques from page one? I respect your opinion on rules and gameplay. Do those at least seem somewhat doable?
runestar 04-05-08, 12:15 AM	In my world, evil warlords either order their minions to plug their ears, or use deaf minions, or minions that don't speak common to fight charismatic heroes, simply because a higher level mastermind will know that a charismatic heroe can and will diplomacy the crap out of them. IIRC, exemplar lets you substitute diplomacy with a skill check of your choice. So your PC could use any skill of his choice, such as jump, hide, tumble or even craft to turn any foe into a fanatic follower (which is a measly dc150, easily attainable, especially with jump checks).:P
Metafictional 04-05-08, 12:34 AM	I think what people are forgetting about here is that Diplomacy is literally the art of the deal. You can't offer someone something for nothing, no matter how well you word it. Diplomacy does not function in a vacuum, you must offer the other side something worth their time. While a high Diplomacy check will cinch the deal, you cannot simply expect a dragon to become your fanatical cohort if you offer it nothing for it's time. It's really that simple, and there's no need to deconstruct the way the skills system works, adjust DC's, or disallow a legitimate option available to players. If a player wants to be a Diplomancer, what of it? Really, I think what you need to examine is what kind of game you and your players want, rather than fume about a Diplomacy check bypassing a high-CR encounter. I mean, think about it, your whole problem is that instead of destroying monsters to get treasure, you have a player who wants REAL power, not just some magic items. By gathering allies and political favors from powerful opponents, the player is setting themselves up to take over the world. In other words, if they succeed, you now have a ready-made BBEG for your NEXT game. DND is not a game that can be "won", but it can be lost. Your characters can die. For some people, that means it's time to roll up new characters and start over. But if a campaign is good enough, some people are going to want to leave their mark on the world, rather than be known as "Nameless Rogue X, who died to a dragon's flame." Why do that, when you can be "Lord Reynard, the Wily, who allied with the Red Dragon Infernus to destroy the evil kingdom of Kasten, and was elected it's new ruler by a grateful populace"? The problem isn't that the rules allow someone to do this. The problem is that one player decided on this course of action, and you weren't ready to run that kind of game. I think this is something the players and the DM need to discuss, rather than have it be some "me vs. them" scenario. Maybe the other players aren't too happy about it? Maybe this is the game they want? Find out, before you decide to ambush the party with Improved Initiative Ninjas just because one of them has superior elocution skills. If you're not ready to run a game with such a grand scale, don't be angry, aren't these people your friends? Just say "look, guys, seriously, I know you're having fun, but I really don't have any ideas for how this will play out. This is beyond me, I can create enemies for you to fight, and challenge your ability to take on lethal opponents, but um, taking over kingdoms...I'm in over my head." There's nothing wrong with this. Really. Your games will be a lot more fun if the players and the DM have a good understanding of their respective strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps your players will have ideas, which you can then use to give them new kinds of challenges? In closing, all I want to say is that Diplomacy isn't broken. At worst, it's being misused. The only thing that is broken is a player pursuing an option that's only fun for him. Being a DM is an unpaid job, you do it because you want to tell a story and have fun with your friends. If it's not fun for you, the game won't last long. Any player who enjoys the game will understand if you tell them they may need to adjust their playstyle. Any player that isn't willing to compromise so that the game can continue, is someone you really can't run a game for. Thank you for your time and patience.
Cariyaga 04-05-08, 12:56 AM	*claps* Bravo.
Kelb_Havoc 04-05-08, 01:08 AM	With my group, I use the table in the phb for inconsequential characters. When the pc's want to influence an important npc I use one of a couple of options. If they're talking to someone who'd have no vested interest in helping or hindering them (ie: shopkeepers, spell casters that enhance their equipment etc..) I use opposed diplomacy checks. If they beat the npc's check by 10 he moves up a mood category, if they lose by 10 they p**s him off and his mood goes down a category. For npc's that *do* have an interest in the pc's success/failure (ie: any baddy they might be facing) they get a check based on the situation. The npc's get int checks (ie: if I buy this load, how will it affect my/ the boss's plans?) and/or a sense motive check (ie: are they just trying to save their hides?) If they try to pull a diplomacy check in combat, either/both of those are preceded by will saves (ie: I don't have time to listen to this idiot, his friends are trying to kill me and my companions.) Of a matter of course, a successful diplomacy check isn't an enchantment spell, and as such npc's will never do something they know would be immediately hazardous to their health. Helpful npc's will do whatever they can to help if they can reasonably expect some good to come to them for their help, and only helpful npc's with full bab's will enter a combat on the pc's behalf. At least that's how we do it. P.S. If you want the dc's for those other checks I mentioned PM me :P
runestar 04-05-08, 01:10 AM	I think what people are forgetting about here is that Diplomacy is literally the art of the deal. You can't offer someone something for nothing, no matter how well you word it. Actually, by the rules, we can. Nothing states that we must say, offer the target a gift with a gp value of cr*1000gp or something as a prelude to diplomacy. Diplomacy does not function in a vacuum, you must offer the other side something worth their time. While a high Diplomacy check will cinch the deal, you cannot simply expect a dragon to become your fanatical cohort if you offer it nothing for it's time. Nothing in the skill desc for diplomacy suggests this. A reward would likely make it easier to succeed, in the form of an ad-hoc bonus on your diplomacy check, but that would pretty much be it. The rules do allow you to say, turn a dragon into a fanatic follower simply by farting in its face (perform: wind instruments check). It's really that simple Perhaps as a reasonable houserule, but not when we are dissecting the use of the diplomacy skill RAW-wise. The rest of what you said makes perfect sense, though. But I believe that we want is an internally consistent version that does not require a ton of adjudication to use effectively. It is not that we are unwilling to houserule, but more that we should not have to. :)
wraithstrike 04-05-08, 01:26 AM	Runestar is correct raw-wise, and I think he sees the point that is being made. Many PC's that are one trick ponies are overpowered in that one aspect. The diplomacy skill situation could be applied to pretty much any other skill. It could be bluff, intimidate, move silent, hide, and so on. When a character is performing to far beyond his level, and it causes the DM trouble with the campaign it is time to reel him in. * *Also see the tripping fighter build.
Jaxgaret 04-05-08, 01:48 AM	Is there anything in the Diplomacy skill description that states for how long the NPC's attitude is adjusted? So your 13th level Diplomancer just turned the CR26 Great Wyrm Red Dragon from Unfriendly to Helpful. Good for them! The Great Wyrm figures out that you just sweet-talked them with your silver tongue, says "Hey, wait a second", and now they're Hostile a round or a couple rounds later. That's a completely by-the-RAW interpretation of Diplomacy and NPC attitudes, and the best part is that it preserves verisimilitude. This of course is ignoring the Epic usage of Diplomacy, but it is absolutely within the DM's purview to disallow that rule, as it is 100% optional. I'm not saying that the DM needs to screw over the Diplomancer at every turn, but neither does the DM need to allow the Diplomancer to run roughshod over every encounter. A balance can be struck.
Wheldrake 04-05-08, 03:55 AM	I think what people are forgetting about here is that Diplomacy is literally the art of the deal. You can't offer someone something for nothing, no matter how well you word it. Actually, by the rules, we can. Nothing states that we must say, offer the target a gift with a gp value of cr*1000gp or something as a prelude to diplomacy. I agree with Runestar that the RAW do not cover the intricacies necessary for an effective diplomacy skill rule. But that doesn't mean we as DMs should allow players to roll their diplomacy checks "in a vacuum". Metafictional has it right: diplomacy is highly situational. The result of a good diplomacy check can't simply be measured by a five-step attitude scale, from hostile to indifferent to helpful. The end result depends on the mindset and attitudes of the target and the details of what is being suggested as much as the raw persuasive powers of the diplomat. A PC who tells a hostile monster "Don't eat me, be my friend because my diplomacy check is 63" is just dreaming. But if he goes on about how he is all skin and bones, tastes terrible and would give indigestion, and then counters that he knows where a real gourmet meal can be had nearby, and wouldn't the monster really appreciate a friend who could help him get his hands on something so yummy, that's a different kettle of fish. That's the heart of Burlew's diplomacy fix (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html), and the dual modifiers for the diplomat's relationship to the target and for the risk vs reward judgement. And I would add that the end result still depends on the philosophy and predilections of the target, and properly preparing the situation. You can't try to diplomatize a homicidal killer charging you with blood in his eyes and a battle axe in his hands: properly preparing the diplomacy attempt is a must (hence the requirement for 1 minute of speech) and the end result, even if the dice say it should be highly favorable, doesn't necessarily mean the target lays down like a lamb, gives the diplomat everything he owns, betrays his tribe or commits hara-kiri. Measure in all things. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Count Arioch the 28th 04-05-08, 09:34 AM	So, Count, what do you think of my techniques from page one? I respect your opinion on rules and gameplay. Do those at least seem somewhat doable? One is entirely reasonable. You can't diplomacy a golem. Two is in fact used in several supplements that I've run ("Due to the fanatic nature of the hobgoblins, diplomacy checks are made a -4), I wouldn't have an issue with that. In fact, I use them extensively, giving conditional bonuses and penalties depending on the situation. Three is less useful when you can take -10 to diplomacy as a full round action. Even when a fight has rang out, there's still time for negotiations if you're skilled enough.
katarl 04-05-08, 11:56 AM	I played in an oriental game where an optimised courtier did use diplomacy on a regular basis, and i think the dm responded well to the situation, he ruled that the though the rushed checks that he made were always successful, the sudden improvement in attitude only applied to the courtier, and not the rest of the party. That person wouldn't attack him, but that didn't stop them attacking the rest of us. It's a balancing act between keeping diplomacy useful as a skill (which, frankly won't happen if you play with some of these dms), and not turn the game into a tambourine-fest, where everyone gets along, and no fighting actually takes place. You can't simply ban it because fast-talking monsters into not eating you is a fantasy staple (remember the trolls in The Hobbit?). Use the fix.