disable device on locked doors? [Archive] - Wizards Community

disable device on locked doors? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Exner
03-13-07, 12:54 AM can you use disable device to open a locked door (by breaking the lock or the door)?
Someone
03-13-07, 01:06 AM Nope. Were you to disable the door device, it wouldn't work as a door anymore.

Note this has its uses- if you wanted to seal a door shut, you could jam something in the right spot to keep the door from opening, even without showing signs the door has been intentionally jammed.
taski
03-13-07, 01:26 AM Yes, you can break the lock, remove the hinges, etc. with disable device. It's not subtle, and you will leave evidence that guard patrols can notice. But it gets you on to the next room.

It is a common house rule to remove the open lock skill and make lock picking part of disable device.
WinterPsionic
03-13-07, 11:45 AM It is a common house rule to remove the open lock skill and make lock picking part of disable device.

....seriously? In 13 campaigns spanning 5 "worlds" I've never had a DM use this rule....it's likin doin away with Hide and replacing Move Silently with Stealth.
tarkin
03-13-07, 11:57 AM Point 1: NEVER believe someone that says "it is a common house rule" In my experience, they have never done a survey. They have in fact, never actually asked a single person what they do. What they are doing is telling you how they play, in a few groups, and what they may have heard once or twice on these boards. They never remember the 100 people that laughed at their idea, they always remember the 2 people that agreed with them. But every idea, no matter how bad has a couple of people that agree with it.

2. Taski gave wrong information.

When you succeed at Disabling a Device you prevent the device from working.

The door is in one of two states, either locked or unlocked. The lock mechanism is a device to CHANGE that state. If you disable it, then state can no longer be changed.

If you read Disable Device, it is very clear:

Simple 1 round 10 Jam a lock

So after succesfully disabling a lock, it becomes JAMMED, in whatever position it was before you started working on it.

If Disable Device worked the way Taski thought it does, it would say: "Simple 1 round 10 Unlock a lock"

It does not do that. Disable Device can be used to Jam a lock. It can not be used to open a locked door, or lock an unlocked door.
============

When you come across a door, there are 4 things you can do.

1. Use the skill Open Lock. Quite. Not so quick.

2. use Magic. Quite and Quick.

3. Attack the door. Doors have relatively low hitpoints, usually. This is the sure way to go, but takes several rounds and makes a lot of noise. You always attack the DOOR, not the lock, because Locks normally have higher hitpoints and higher hardness. They are usually made of stronger materials than the door.

4. Attempt to Break the door with a strength check. Again, doors have lower DC's. This is quicker than attacking the door, but still makes a lot of noise. When you attack a door, you are trying to break it at the weakest point, which includes the Lock. If the lock is the weakest point, then it breaks. But normally, the lock should be stronger than the rest of the door, as it is typically made of better materials.
Thiez
03-13-07, 12:01 PM I've considered merging Open Lock and Disable Device, too.
Kursk
03-13-07, 12:02 PM Point 1: NEVER believe someone that says "it is a common house rule" ...

Great post Tarkin. Good summation.
Exner
03-13-07, 12:51 PM DMG p62 says you can disable device on hinges to open a locked door.
Kursk
03-13-07, 12:54 PM DMG p62 says you can disable device on hinges to open a locked door.

I guess as long as the hinges aren't of the weld type, otherwise it's a break DC
FrostHammer
03-13-07, 01:03 PM I'd houserule that Move silently and Hide be merged into Stealth, and disable device and open lock be merged as well, but I fully recognize them as house rules.
DrMorganes
03-13-07, 01:05 PM DMG p62 says you can disable device on hinges to open a locked door.

Which takes the door off the hinges, essentially disabling the door. This will work, but it's definitely an unsubtle way of going about it. No Spot Check needed to notice someone has tampered with the door, and getting it closed again may not be possible. "Disabling" the hinges may require more than simply tapping out a hinge pin. The hinges could be permanently damaged.
Exner
03-13-07, 01:34 PM Which takes the door off the hinges, essentially disabling the door. This will work, but it's definitely an unsubtle way of going about it. No Spot Check needed to notice someone has tampered with the door, and getting it closed again may not be possible. "Disabling" the hinges may require more than simply tapping out a hinge pin. The hinges could be permanently damaged.

and the hinges have to be on your side of the door.
Zherog
03-13-07, 01:44 PM ...it's likin doin away with Hide and replacing Move Silently with Stealth.

The World of Warcraft RPG does exactly that - merges Hide and Move Silently into one skill called Stealth.
FrostHammer
03-13-07, 01:56 PM I think so does neverwinter nights 2
Exner
03-13-07, 02:57 PM i personally dont think its a bad idea to merge some skills like hide/ms and dd/ol. they are too specific. when they made the switch from 3.0 to 3.5 they did a good thing in condensing the skills. condesning it even more and making the skills more general would be a really good thing imo to simplify things more. 1 roll vs 1 roll is better than 2 rolls vs 2 rolls.

in fact, i think it would be a good idea to merge the following:
diplomacy+bluff+intimidate
disable device+open locks
move silently+hide
paladin2019
03-13-07, 03:55 PM The World of Warcraft RPG does exactly that - merges Hide and Move Silently into one skill called Stealth.

Because the computer game it's based on does it this way. Truth to the source material and all.

I think so does neverwinter nights 2
It doesn't, but there is only one stealth action which uses both skills and both counters to determine success. DDO does the same.
fatal error
03-13-07, 07:44 PM I merge Disable Device and Open Lock. I find both to be painfully specific, and hate making Skill Monkeys, looking at all the skills I need to take, and finding both of these on that list.

Hide and Move Silently I'm a little more wary of merging simply because I think they're very useful, and so perhaps should come with a higher price. However, I think the idea of skill groups (I like Iron Heroes' version of it the best) is a good idea to let characters make their skill points go farther. But then, I've never been a fan of Skill Monkey being a single character's single role.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-13-07, 08:00 PM and the hinges have to be on your side of the door.

As an interesting historical side-note, in Faerun, Greyhawk, and every other setting worth a damn, carpentry was revolutionized by innovations in quantum hardware. Screws that never rust, fasteners that are nuts and bolts until observed, and nails that tunnel through substrate nuclei. The unfortunate consequence of this technology- the hinges are always on the side of the door opposite to the observer.

The price you pay for progress, I suppose.
MerlintheTuna
03-13-07, 08:19 PM ....seriously? In 13 campaigns spanning 5 "worlds" I've never had a DM use this rule....it's likin doin away with Hide and replacing Move Silently with Stealth.Well, clearly none of your 5 worlds have been "Earth." D20 Modern does exactly this, and it works just fine.
Willie the Duck
03-13-07, 08:48 PM i personally dont think its a bad idea to merge some skills like hide/ms and dd/ol. they are too specific. when they made the switch from 3.0 to 3.5 they did a good thing in condensing the skills. condesning it even more and making the skills more general would be a really good thing imo to simplify things more. 1 roll vs 1 roll is better than 2 rolls vs 2 rolls.

in fact, i think it would be a good idea to merge the following:
diplomacy+bluff+intimidate
disable device+open locks
move silently+hide

Disable device and open locks are almost always done by the exact same character in a nearly identicle situation (you come upon a dungeon feature and wish to bypass it). Move silently and hide are almost always done by the exact same character at the exact same time (you very rarely have to hide when you don't have to MS, and vice versa). Combining those skills and then shrinking the skill point totals for skill monkey classes would barely effect the game. combining bluff, diplomacy and intimidate would change the game. Lots of people have just one of those skills, and if it fails can't fall back on the others, and their roles would thus change if the skills were merged.

As to the original question: yes, DD can effect a door, but it effects it as a device to be broken or bypassed, not as a portal to be opened. How that differs will depend on the situation.
ravenshrike
03-14-07, 01:41 AM Apparently greyhawk, faerun, and ebberon have revolutionary loking mechanisms that are completely different in every way from complicated devices. Lockpicking is EASY. Especially if it's a pin tumbler. Then you can just bump it. But even traditional lockpicking is relatively simple. Anyone who can disable a major trap could learn lockpicking damned easily. How about if you have 5 or more ranks in Disable Device you can gain 4 ranks for every 1 point you put into Open Lock? Much more realistic than the current setup.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Exner 03-13-07, 12:54 AM	can you use disable device to open a locked door (by breaking the lock or the door)?
Someone 03-13-07, 01:06 AM	Nope. Were you to disable the door device, it wouldn't work as a door anymore. Note this has its uses- if you wanted to seal a door shut, you could jam something in the right spot to keep the door from opening, even without showing signs the door has been intentionally jammed.
taski 03-13-07, 01:26 AM	Yes, you can break the lock, remove the hinges, etc. with disable device. It's not subtle, and you will leave evidence that guard patrols can notice. But it gets you on to the next room. It is a common house rule to remove the open lock skill and make lock picking part of disable device.
WinterPsionic 03-13-07, 11:45 AM	It is a common house rule to remove the open lock skill and make lock picking part of disable device. ....seriously? In 13 campaigns spanning 5 "worlds" I've never had a DM use this rule....it's likin doin away with Hide and replacing Move Silently with Stealth.
tarkin 03-13-07, 11:57 AM	Point 1: NEVER believe someone that says "it is a common house rule" In my experience, they have never done a survey. They have in fact, never actually asked a single person what they do. What they are doing is telling you how they play, in a few groups, and what they may have heard once or twice on these boards. They never remember the 100 people that laughed at their idea, they always remember the 2 people that agreed with them. But every idea, no matter how bad has a couple of people that agree with it. 2. Taski gave wrong information. When you succeed at Disabling a Device you prevent the device from working. The door is in one of two states, either locked or unlocked. The lock mechanism is a device to CHANGE that state. If you disable it, then state can no longer be changed. If you read Disable Device, it is very clear: Simple 1 round 10 Jam a lock So after succesfully disabling a lock, it becomes JAMMED, in whatever position it was before you started working on it. If Disable Device worked the way Taski thought it does, it would say: "Simple 1 round 10 Unlock a lock" It does not do that. Disable Device can be used to Jam a lock. It can not be used to open a locked door, or lock an unlocked door. ============ When you come across a door, there are 4 things you can do. 1. Use the skill Open Lock. Quite. Not so quick. 2. use Magic. Quite and Quick. 3. Attack the door. Doors have relatively low hitpoints, usually. This is the sure way to go, but takes several rounds and makes a lot of noise. You always attack the DOOR, not the lock, because Locks normally have higher hitpoints and higher hardness. They are usually made of stronger materials than the door. 4. Attempt to Break the door with a strength check. Again, doors have lower DC's. This is quicker than attacking the door, but still makes a lot of noise. When you attack a door, you are trying to break it at the weakest point, which includes the Lock. If the lock is the weakest point, then it breaks. But normally, the lock should be stronger than the rest of the door, as it is typically made of better materials.
Thiez 03-13-07, 12:01 PM	I've considered merging Open Lock and Disable Device, too.
Kursk 03-13-07, 12:02 PM	Point 1: NEVER believe someone that says "it is a common house rule" ... Great post Tarkin. Good summation.
Exner 03-13-07, 12:51 PM	DMG p62 says you can disable device on hinges to open a locked door.
Kursk 03-13-07, 12:54 PM	DMG p62 says you can disable device on hinges to open a locked door. I guess as long as the hinges aren't of the weld type, otherwise it's a break DC
FrostHammer 03-13-07, 01:03 PM	I'd houserule that Move silently and Hide be merged into Stealth, and disable device and open lock be merged as well, but I fully recognize them as house rules.
DrMorganes 03-13-07, 01:05 PM	DMG p62 says you can disable device on hinges to open a locked door. Which takes the door off the hinges, essentially disabling the door. This will work, but it's definitely an unsubtle way of going about it. No Spot Check needed to notice someone has tampered with the door, and getting it closed again may not be possible. "Disabling" the hinges may require more than simply tapping out a hinge pin. The hinges could be permanently damaged.
Exner 03-13-07, 01:34 PM	Which takes the door off the hinges, essentially disabling the door. This will work, but it's definitely an unsubtle way of going about it. No Spot Check needed to notice someone has tampered with the door, and getting it closed again may not be possible. "Disabling" the hinges may require more than simply tapping out a hinge pin. The hinges could be permanently damaged. and the hinges have to be on your side of the door.
Zherog 03-13-07, 01:44 PM	...it's likin doin away with Hide and replacing Move Silently with Stealth. The World of Warcraft RPG does exactly that - merges Hide and Move Silently into one skill called Stealth.
FrostHammer 03-13-07, 01:56 PM	I think so does neverwinter nights 2
Exner 03-13-07, 02:57 PM	i personally dont think its a bad idea to merge some skills like hide/ms and dd/ol. they are too specific. when they made the switch from 3.0 to 3.5 they did a good thing in condensing the skills. condesning it even more and making the skills more general would be a really good thing imo to simplify things more. 1 roll vs 1 roll is better than 2 rolls vs 2 rolls. in fact, i think it would be a good idea to merge the following: diplomacy+bluff+intimidate disable device+open locks move silently+hide
paladin2019 03-13-07, 03:55 PM	The World of Warcraft RPG does exactly that - merges Hide and Move Silently into one skill called Stealth. Because the computer game it's based on does it this way. Truth to the source material and all. I think so does neverwinter nights 2 It doesn't, but there is only one stealth action which uses both skills and both counters to determine success. DDO does the same.
fatal error 03-13-07, 07:44 PM	I merge Disable Device and Open Lock. I find both to be painfully specific, and hate making Skill Monkeys, looking at all the skills I need to take, and finding both of these on that list. Hide and Move Silently I'm a little more wary of merging simply because I think they're very useful, and so perhaps should come with a higher price. However, I think the idea of skill groups (I like Iron Heroes' version of it the best) is a good idea to let characters make their skill points go farther. But then, I've never been a fan of Skill Monkey being a single character's single role.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-13-07, 08:00 PM	and the hinges have to be on your side of the door. As an interesting historical side-note, in Faerun, Greyhawk, and every other setting worth a damn, carpentry was revolutionized by innovations in quantum hardware. Screws that never rust, fasteners that are nuts and bolts until observed, and nails that tunnel through substrate nuclei. The unfortunate consequence of this technology- the hinges are always on the side of the door opposite to the observer. The price you pay for progress, I suppose.
MerlintheTuna 03-13-07, 08:19 PM	....seriously? In 13 campaigns spanning 5 "worlds" I've never had a DM use this rule....it's likin doin away with Hide and replacing Move Silently with Stealth.Well, clearly none of your 5 worlds have been "Earth." D20 Modern does exactly this, and it works just fine.
Willie the Duck 03-13-07, 08:48 PM	i personally dont think its a bad idea to merge some skills like hide/ms and dd/ol. they are too specific. when they made the switch from 3.0 to 3.5 they did a good thing in condensing the skills. condesning it even more and making the skills more general would be a really good thing imo to simplify things more. 1 roll vs 1 roll is better than 2 rolls vs 2 rolls. in fact, i think it would be a good idea to merge the following: diplomacy+bluff+intimidate disable device+open locks move silently+hide Disable device and open locks are almost always done by the exact same character in a nearly identicle situation (you come upon a dungeon feature and wish to bypass it). Move silently and hide are almost always done by the exact same character at the exact same time (you very rarely have to hide when you don't have to MS, and vice versa). Combining those skills and then shrinking the skill point totals for skill monkey classes would barely effect the game. combining bluff, diplomacy and intimidate would change the game. Lots of people have just one of those skills, and if it fails can't fall back on the others, and their roles would thus change if the skills were merged. As to the original question: yes, DD can effect a door, but it effects it as a device to be broken or bypassed, not as a portal to be opened. How that differs will depend on the situation.
ravenshrike 03-14-07, 01:41 AM	Apparently greyhawk, faerun, and ebberon have revolutionary loking mechanisms that are completely different in every way from complicated devices. Lockpicking is EASY. Especially if it's a pin tumbler. Then you can just bump it. But even traditional lockpicking is relatively simple. Anyone who can disable a major trap could learn lockpicking damned easily. How about if you have 5 or more ranks in Disable Device you can gain 4 ranks for every 1 point you put into Open Lock? Much more realistic than the current setup.