Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokenarin 10-02-07, 12:38 PM	Is the art of deception by appearing as someone else a bluff check or a disguise check? disguise is opposed by spot. bluff is opposed by sense motive. A character shapechanging by use of polymorph into a another race for example gets a +10 to their disguise check. example: a goblin magicly changing into a human for example gets a +10 to his disguise. When mixing into say a human city those who have interaction with the changed goblin get a spot or a sense motive to see if the disguise is fake? (seems like spot for just the visual aspects) My question is thus...in order to pull off the deception, is it only regulated to a disguise check or do you need a bluff as well to be successful in interacting with others? If you need only 1 check then that is easy disguise. It seems to me that the act of disguise is not only just theatrical makeup but acting as well, thus no need for bluff. help?
BW0222 10-02-07, 01:24 PM	Lokenarin, My question is thus...in order to pull off the deception, is it only regulated to a disguise check or do you need a bluff as well to be successful in interacting with others? It depends... do you need to lie? Disquise allows you to look, act, and (possibly) sound like someone else. Bluff allows you to lie to someone without being noticed. It is possible to deceive someone using only the disquise check -- presumably appearing as someone else -- provided that you don't lie. For example, if you disquise yourself as a sergeant, head up to a pair of town guards on duty and say "Take a walk." there is no bluff check. You aren't lying to them. However, if you said, "There is a fire in the next district, the captain wants you to report to main guard post." then you are lying (there isn't a fire and the captain doesn't want them to report to the main guard post) and you need to also make bluff check. Failure means they'll things something is suspicious, but they still think you are a sergeant. It really depends upon how you plan and handle yourself and how untrusting the others are. If you aren't terribly good at bluffing, you typically don't want to enter into complex 'tales' which require lying. Select a disquise which extended conversation, questioning, or stories aren't needed for. For example, if you are trying to sneak into town, you might have a better chance disquised as a dumb mute carrying a box of fishing gear labelled "Deliver to Harbormaster's Office" than a fish merchant. With the former, you can grunt at every question and point to the box... while with the later you are likely to be asked question you know you will need to lie to "Where do you buy your fish? Which ships do you use to transport your fish?, Where are you going to be staying?" all of which require bluff checks.
Kouk 10-02-07, 02:44 PM	I disagree with the statement "Take a walk" not requiring a Bluff check. I think you would be saying that in a manner of authority, trying to sound like you are even allowed to say such a thing (anyway, that would probably be breaking the rules for them to just wander away from their post, even if a CO told them to). You would also have to deal with modifiers like "The Bluff puts the target at some risk" and "The target wants to believe you". You aren't actually "lying" but you are presenting a statement you want them to believe comes from a superior. It's a fine line though, and I can understand ruling either way. For Disguise, that is purely a visual thing. You want to look like a guard perhaps, and as long as nobody pays any attention to you they don't get a Spot check. As soon as you open your mouth, I would say you have to start with the Bluffing and Diplomacy checks. Admittedly this makes the skill very situational. Keep in mind that 5 ranks in Bluff grants a Synergy to Disguise, so they are not quite the same thing, but closely related. You could use Disguise mostly to not look like yourself, if you were going to commit some act that you wanted to do anonymously, or if you were trying to avoid notice from a previous act, typically. If you want to infiltrate a Human-only bar, but you were an Elf, you would use Disguise. I would say you could make minor gestures or brief statements (like stroking your fake beard, or saying a traditional greeting of some sort) as long as nobody was suspicious of you. If the guy stops you at the door, and says "Are you a Human?" anything you say after that would be a Bluff check though (in my opinion). EDIT: A good Disguise would prevent him from stopping you in the first place.
Killydd 10-02-07, 04:37 PM	Note that bluff has large circumstance bonuses put on it for how willing they are to believe you. Also, your typical town guard probably doesn't have much invested in sense motive: his job is to notice things happening and respond. This is why we have passwords, so that the poor guards don't need sense motive to discern whether this person is allowed to wander into camp, for a different example. If its something even slightly suspicious, they get the sergeant out(who probably was chosen for his ability to see through plotsto get into camp). So, for the goblin trying to mix intoa human city, the polymorph of course gives you the bonus, different race gives the penalty, but since you're not pretending to be a specific human, the lack of penalty will probably let you pass the spot check they get on seeing you. IF they then try to interact with you, you'll need to make a bluff check. If you're in a reasonable disguise, it just wont' effect them much, and your skill should let you pass. for the sergeant, it really depends on the situation. If the guards know there's only 5 sergeants in the city guard and play cards with them off-duty(NCO after all) it'll probably fail the spot check, unless you can bluff them into thinking you're a new sergeant. From there, it will depend on how much risk is involved in believing you for now: if they're just patrolling, they'll of course go to the fire. If they have a post, there's likely large risk to abandoning the post, and if they don't know you, they'll likely stick to the post. Of course, in a larger town it would be easier to be an officer that they don't know, and reduce the disguise penalty.
BW0222 10-02-07, 04:59 PM	Kouk, I disagree with the statement "Take a walk" not requiring a Bluff check. I think you would be saying that in a manner of authority, trying to sound like you are even allowed to say such a thing (anyway, that would probably be breaking the rules for them to just wander away from their post, even if a CO told them to). You would also have to deal with modifiers like "The Bluff puts the target at some risk" and "The target wants to believe you". You aren't bluffing someone when you tell them to "Take a walk". A successful sense motive check would reveal that you are genuine in wanting them to take a walk. Disguise checks to not preclude acting in character or talking to folks. It is a charisma based skill and bluff ranks provide a synergy bonus when acting in character. A senior guard telling junior guards to "Take a walk" is acting in character. That's how senior guards are. They don't explain things to underlings. Military-style commands. You'd be far more likely to beleive he is a sergeant than if he said, "Gee guys... how is it going? I'm new here? Say, would you like to take a walk for a few minutes?". The later being bad acting. Disguise is opposed by spot. If you start ruling that any noise, action, or look which the disguised person makes requires a bluff check, then you might as well skip the disguise skill. Anyone can dress up as a sergeant. Just slap on some armor, weapons, and a coat of arms. The reason it is a charisma-based skill is the key is acting -- including speaking, manorisms, movement, tone, etc. Issuing orders is acting like a guard. For Disguise, that is purely a visual thing. Says who? Nothing in the description says that it can't involve speaking in character. Further, it even includes the word "acting" and you get a synergy bonus for acting in character. As soon as you open your mouth, I would say you have to start with the Bluffing and Diplomacy checks. Admittedly this makes the skill very situational. No way. Part of acting is talking. It is a charisma-based skill. Keep in mind that 5 ranks in Bluff grants a Synergy to Disguise, so they are not quite the same thing, but closely related. Which furthers my position. You don't need to make bluff checks to act in character, because your ranks in bluff are already included in your disguise check. You could use Disguise mostly to not look like yourself, if you were going to commit some act that you wanted to do anonymously, or if you were trying to avoid notice from a previous act, typically. If you want to infiltrate a Human-only bar, but you were an Elf, you would use Disguise. I would say you could make minor gestures or brief statements (like stroking your fake beard, or saying a traditional greeting of some sort) as long as nobody was suspicious of you. Disquise includes acting. Acting includes speech. Your example of falking a traditional greating is no different than a guard getting junior guards to "Take a walk". That's how senior guards act. If the guy stops you at the door, and says "Are you a Human?" anything you say after that would be a Bluff check though (in my opinion). EDIT: A good Disguise would prevent him from stopping you in the first place. In this case, I agree. The guard is doubtful that you are human and is asking you a specific question. He is looking for how you respond. If you dodge the question, he might be suspicious. However, if he asked you how are you, and you said "Fine", or he asked you if it is raining outside and you said "Just a little." you aren't lying -- that is part of your disguise and no bluff checks are needed. However, my guard example is clearly different. You are merely telling two junior guards to "Take a walk." you aren't responding to questions, you aren't giving them a chance to question you. If (in my example), you walked up to the guards and they asked, "Sir, are you new here?" almost any response you can give some type of clue. You'd likely need a bluff check to dodge the likely suspicion of any answer.
Killydd 10-02-07, 06:45 PM	In my opinion, even those interactions do require a bluff check. However, since you probably have most of them planned out and there is no specific distraction, you can take 10 on the bluff check. And if the target is predisposed to believe you, he takes the -5 penalty on his sense motive and also takes 10, and will only rarely see through things unless something raises his guard. Agreed, the disguise check does include things like mannerisms, but specific orders do include the implicit lie "I'm allowed to give you orders." If they don't contradict prior orders, the target is more willing to believe you than if you are changing their orders and deserting the post or whatever would have harsh penalties. This is the reason that faking a greeting is different from tellling the guards to take a walk: people are willing to believe that you're human in a human bar, but they might be far less willing to desert their post without making some verification that you are actually authorized to countermand their orders.
Kouk 10-02-07, 09:48 PM	However, if he asked you how are you, and you said "Fine", or he asked you if it is raining outside and you said "Just a little." you aren't lying -- that is part of your disguise and no bluff checks are needed. You make some interesting points. This is the sort of thing I meant by "brief statements". I will admit you could extend this to longer issues as long as they are in no way related to the identity you are trying to take: You could look like a guard, but if a shopkeeper wants to talk about the weather or events you know about full well, then you probably don't have to make any other checks. Your knowledge doesn't particularly impact your Disguise in any way. If he believes you are a guard from your successful Disguise, he has no reason to be suspicious of anything "mundane" that you say (or maybe now he does have reason, depending on the person). If you start saying stuff like "Oh it's much better today than the last 2 weeks" then you may or may not be lying or saying something you aren't entirely sure about. As long as you aren't discussing anything about your Disguise, or try to lie or get someone to believe something you say, I don't think you would have to start Bluffing. I agree Disguise handles things like the way you walk, or your accent, or strange mannerisms like a twitch or a lazy eye. Also just convincing someone you are who you say you are even though that is probably a lie. This is a very related skill (in my opinion). I think you go away from Disguise and move to Bluff when you want to convey something that may not be true (other than your identity), or when you are hiding certain information from the person you are talking to, or just trying to get someone to do something. I agree with a previous poster that it is implicit that you are lying by trying to get the guards to do something for you. I consider ordering a guard away from his post just because you are dressed appropriately to be asking them to do something suspicious, so they would probably at least question it. Even if they believe you are a genuine sergeant I don't think it is a given that they will listen to you if they don't know you. You aren't lying per se, but you are presenting something that is probably unbelievable, and you definitely would have to make some sort of check if either of the mook guards simply ask "Why, Sarge?". If they believe your Disguise, failing a Bluff check doesn't mean the NPC won't believe you are who you say you are, they may just figure you are in a bad mood or something today. It would depend on how bad you fail the check I would think. I'm wondering now if Disguise shouldn't just be rolled into Bluff at this point... P.S. I was probably rambling the entire time, so I apologize if I made no sense.
Dheran 10-03-07, 06:29 AM	Is the art of deception by appearing as someone else a bluff check or a disguise check? ... My question is thus...in order to pull off the deception, is it only regulated to a disguise check or do you need a bluff as well to be successful in interacting with others? You've asked two different questions here. If you want to just appear as someone else, that's all Disguise. If you also want to interact with someone else, you need Bluff.
Steevo 10-03-07, 04:43 PM	Is the art of deception by appearing as someone else a bluff check or a disguise check? disguise is opposed by spot. bluff is opposed by sense motive. A character shapechanging by use of polymorph into a another race for example gets a +10 to their disguise check. Making yourself appear to be someone else is Disguise. This includes a certain amount of personal interaction as well as visual alterations. As a general rule, I would have the acting character roll disguise, opposed by either spot or sense motive as I felt appropriate. I've never felt the need to adhere exactly to the rules as written, especially when it seems inappropriate to use spot if the entire subterfuge is behavioural. I would only call for bluff checks in situations where the character had to spitball to maintain his cover. For example, if he was cornered by someone who recognized the person he was disguised as and they got into a conversation about "old times." Or if the disguised character tried to do something decidedly out of character for his persona, a bluff check could be used to explain his odd behaviour. While we're on the subject of bending rules, I also wouldn't be having every single person the disguised character crossed paths with roll a disguise check. If you were disguised as the Captain of the Guard, I'd have the first two guards at the gate roll spot vs disguise. I'd have the captain's wife roll disguise, and the city mayor. But I wouldn't bother rolling for all the other guards you passed by on the street. Too many dice spoil the flow of the action.
1 ton ghost 10-04-07, 12:21 PM	familiarity w/ intended disguisee is a big issue. most ppl just want the opposed roll, but even city guards have a degree of familiarity, but that does not take into account village vs. metropolis and so forth. bigger spot bonus depending on how intimate you are w/ alleged persona. even if it's a "no name plain jane", a guard is not always "just a guard". being in character is a pretty damn big grey area. swagger (do guards have clout here, what about the ghetto?), assimliation of local flair and customs (ppl say "i'm sorry?" around here often compared to "what?"), and those unsaid social textures and subtelties are paramount. if you're just strolling along, the Disguise check should carry you for a while (that unaccounted for time/disguise if odd)...until there's social interaction. normally, you can RP through most of this unless it's really abstract (human posing as drow guard in drow city). you have to take into account language firstly though. dialect is a big issue and you could argue Knowledge Geography/Local to influence this given accents and the like. how many can differentiate between the various american accents let alone brit? not easy. if it's not mechanical, RP, but for important lies that drive plot, Bluff. simple. and of course the obligatory circumstance modifier. i'm a big fan of this as it encourages PC initiative. in most instances, ppl say, "i search this room". if they are specific in said request ie)"search room, check for loose floor boards, under bed, in chimney, etc." that should be worth +1 or 2 if target is truly hidden in fireplace or under bed, etc. w/ Disguise/Bluff it should be no different. that is, if you borrow pieces of guard regalia, coif your hair to milspec, and so on, surely that's worth a small bonus. and oddball stuff via other skills should count as well. a guard (cop) is sobering, but one w/ documentation (forgery) to push his Bluff/disguise is definetly worth a plus in many respects.
Lokenarin 12-18-07, 08:17 PM	Disguise is the art of not only looking like something your not but also to act the part. I agree to the above, 1 ton ghost in some things. Disguise will get you far in your disecption in reguards to looking and to a lesser part acting the roll. But as far as pivitol plot driven aspects go, bluff will for sure be needed in excess. You can spin falsehood without really actually liying. The act of pretending to be something your not is lying, hence the bluff. So to be effective you will need both if you wish to go deep undercover.
Olik 01-02-08, 03:52 PM	I would just assume that Disguise covers an unspoken lie. the guards / wife / merchant / assassin looks at you and thinks one of two things: "hey, its bob" or "hey, is that bob?". you didnt say anything or do anything. what influences their decision to be suspisious or not, is how good your disguise is. if someone aproaches you and says "hey bob". and bob happens to be a dwarf with a thick rusty accent, you assumedly disguised your voice aswell. pretending to have an accent is just as good as having one in most cases. as for the guards being told to "take a walk". from personal experience, if im guarding something, and some dude ive never seen before comes walking up and has some brass on his colar / chest, you dont say "i dont think so.. sir." you walk. you might walk to where your SOG is at and ask about the guy that just made you go for a strole, but you dont ignore the guy because you've never seen him before. the higher rank you get (assuming guards are bottom of the barrel), the more people you know and thus the more likely you are to know if someone is hood-winking you or not. Peons obey first, and question later. it saves their ass every time. When you start talking to someone, its pretty situational whether you are bluffing them or just talking to them. If that guy comes over and says "hey, bob, how about this weather, huh!" and pats me on the back, i see no reason why id need to roll bluff for a "yeah" response. if he says "hey bob, i heard about the wife.." and i say "i dont want to talk about it." again, no bluff. honestly i dont want to talk about it because i know nothing about it, and at the same time, its not a suspicious response. Now if i responded "yeah, shes not doing so well." and the guy says "doing so well? id say so, bob. shes dead." well, then id be pretty screwed without a high +bluff mod and some good rolling. Looking, acting, sounding, etc to be someone = disguise. physically or verbally trying to manipulate someone = bluff Watching it all go down the drain because of a poor bluff roll = HiPS + SA