Divine Metamagic, A Refresher [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine Metamagic, A Refresher [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PhantomTrain
10-17-07, 09:35 AM Bouncing around the boards, I have seen many instances of the abuse of divine metamagic, mostly at the hands of a device called a nightstick. I'm sorry to be the last rat to the cheese, but can someone explain to me precisely what we're talking about when we say 'divine metamagic'? And what the heck is a Nightstick?

I'm not new at this, I swear.
vorpo
10-17-07, 10:45 AM Divine Metamagic is a divine feat introduced in CDiv.
Tempest Stormwind
10-17-07, 11:03 AM Bouncing around the boards, I have seen many instances of the abuse of divine metamagic, mostly at the hands of a device called a nightstick. I'm sorry to be the last rat to the cheese, but can someone explain to me precisely what we're talking about when we say 'divine metamagic'? And what the heck is a Nightstick?

I'm not new at this, I swear.

Divine Metamagic: Feat in Complete Munchkin Divine that allows you to spend Turn Undead attempts instead of extra spell levels when using a particular metamagic feat. Note that it *doesn't* prevent you from casting a spell of a slot level you couldn't cast (i.e. if you only have access to 3rd level spells and have Divine Metamagic: Extend, you could extend a 3rd level spell, despite not having any 4th level slots.)

This is usually combined with Persistent Spell, letting you cast your best buff spells so that they last all day. Persistent Divine Power is usually cited as the worst of the lot. (Note that dispels are a non-factor: If you're using DMM: Persist, you have cheap ways of boosting your caster level by around 10 or more. So not only do they last all day and resist dispelling, they scale as if you were a much higher level character.)

This can get expensive: even though no one was using those turn attempts anyway, you only have so many of them. This is where the Nightstick comes into play. Most recently from Libris Mortis, it's something like 7500 GP for a rod that gives you an Extra Turning feat just for *owning* it and throwing it in your bag. Since Extra Turning stacks with itself, most people buy dozens of Nightsticks, and all of a sudden the cost to use DMM(Persist) is completely negligable.
Sigfried
10-17-07, 11:37 AM A house-rule solution to nightstick cheese: they don't stack. Carrying two or more nightsticks still gives only +4 turn attempts per day. The DMM persistent cheese is nerfed a bit. You can still persist some spells, but not all of them. If you have a 20 charisma and Extra turning twice, then a nightstick will yield a total 20 turn attempts per day. Persisting a spell takes 9 (if I remember correctly), so you can persist two of your highest level spells.

Don't get me wrong, this is still a powerful tactic. I think, however, that the above isn't so bad.

Forgive me if this is a rehash of previous arguments: I don't have the books in front of me, but doesn't persistent spell have a huge list of prereqs? Given the limited number of feats a cleric gets, then it seems like a dmm-persist cleric pays a lot for his two persistent spells using the house rule above. Maybe not.
Grax
10-17-07, 12:20 PM doesn't persistent spell have a huge list of prereqs? Given the limited number of feats a cleric gets, then it seems like a dmm-persist cleric pays a lot for his two persistent spells using the house rule above. Maybe not.

You would need:
extend spell
persistent spell
divine metamagic

then at least one extra turning and high charisma

The planning domain's granted power is the extend spell feat so a human cleric could knock-out the first three feats at level one. By third level he should be pick up extra turning and/or a nightstick. And really it only takes 7 turning attempts (six for persistent spell, one for DMM) unless I'm reading something wrong.
Killydd
10-17-07, 04:12 PM How would the nightstick stack with itself? It would be providing a second bonus from the same source(the nightstick) and so would overlap with itself, even though the feat itself can be granted multiple times?
Sigfried
10-17-07, 07:36 PM You would need:
extend spell
persistent spell
divine metamagic

then at least one extra turning and high charisma

The planning domain's granted power is the extend spell feat so a human cleric could knock-out the first three feats at level one. By third level he should be pick up extra turning and/or a nightstick. And really it only takes 7 turning attempts (six for persistent spell, one for DMM) unless I'm reading something wrong.

Thanks Grax, you're probably right. I was under the impression that Persistent spell added 8 levels.

Yes, that's disgustingly easy to pull off. Do you think my house rule nerfs this enough?
Grax
10-17-07, 08:06 PM How 'bout this for a house rule (along with nightsticks not stacking, 'cause that one makes a lot of sense), you can only use as many turning attempts on DMM to a maximum of your charisma modifier. So to use DMM persistent spell you would need a modifier of +7 (charisma 24). That makes it so it won't happen for a long time and it's costly.

It picks on DMM persistent spell the most making it more likely that a PC will go for something like empower spell or the like, and no domai (that I know of) gives you those feats. characters can still have the feats they need by first level and possibly the charisma, but at least they are not strutting about with divine power.

Just an idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PhantomTrain 10-17-07, 09:35 AM	Bouncing around the boards, I have seen many instances of the abuse of divine metamagic, mostly at the hands of a device called a nightstick. I'm sorry to be the last rat to the cheese, but can someone explain to me precisely what we're talking about when we say 'divine metamagic'? And what the heck is a Nightstick? I'm not new at this, I swear.
vorpo 10-17-07, 10:45 AM	Divine Metamagic is a divine feat introduced in CDiv.
Tempest Stormwind 10-17-07, 11:03 AM	Bouncing around the boards, I have seen many instances of the abuse of divine metamagic, mostly at the hands of a device called a nightstick. I'm sorry to be the last rat to the cheese, but can someone explain to me precisely what we're talking about when we say 'divine metamagic'? And what the heck is a Nightstick? I'm not new at this, I swear. Divine Metamagic: Feat in Complete Munchkin Divine that allows you to spend Turn Undead attempts instead of extra spell levels when using a particular metamagic feat. Note that it doesn't prevent you from casting a spell of a slot level you couldn't cast (i.e. if you only have access to 3rd level spells and have Divine Metamagic: Extend, you could extend a 3rd level spell, despite not having any 4th level slots.) This is usually combined with Persistent Spell, letting you cast your best buff spells so that they last all day. Persistent Divine Power is usually cited as the worst of the lot. (Note that dispels are a non-factor: If you're using DMM: Persist, you have cheap ways of boosting your caster level by around 10 or more. So not only do they last all day and resist dispelling, they scale as if you were a much higher level character.) This can get expensive: even though no one was using those turn attempts anyway, you only have so many of them. This is where the Nightstick comes into play. Most recently from Libris Mortis, it's something like 7500 GP for a rod that gives you an Extra Turning feat just for owning it and throwing it in your bag. Since Extra Turning stacks with itself, most people buy dozens of Nightsticks, and all of a sudden the cost to use DMM(Persist) is completely negligable.
Sigfried 10-17-07, 11:37 AM	A house-rule solution to nightstick cheese: they don't stack. Carrying two or more nightsticks still gives only +4 turn attempts per day. The DMM persistent cheese is nerfed a bit. You can still persist some spells, but not all of them. If you have a 20 charisma and Extra turning twice, then a nightstick will yield a total 20 turn attempts per day. Persisting a spell takes 9 (if I remember correctly), so you can persist two of your highest level spells. Don't get me wrong, this is still a powerful tactic. I think, however, that the above isn't so bad. Forgive me if this is a rehash of previous arguments: I don't have the books in front of me, but doesn't persistent spell have a huge list of prereqs? Given the limited number of feats a cleric gets, then it seems like a dmm-persist cleric pays a lot for his two persistent spells using the house rule above. Maybe not.
Grax 10-17-07, 12:20 PM	doesn't persistent spell have a huge list of prereqs? Given the limited number of feats a cleric gets, then it seems like a dmm-persist cleric pays a lot for his two persistent spells using the house rule above. Maybe not. You would need: extend spell persistent spell divine metamagic then at least one extra turning and high charisma The planning domain's granted power is the extend spell feat so a human cleric could knock-out the first three feats at level one. By third level he should be pick up extra turning and/or a nightstick. And really it only takes 7 turning attempts (six for persistent spell, one for DMM) unless I'm reading something wrong.
Killydd 10-17-07, 04:12 PM	How would the nightstick stack with itself? It would be providing a second bonus from the same source(the nightstick) and so would overlap with itself, even though the feat itself can be granted multiple times?
Sigfried 10-17-07, 07:36 PM	You would need: extend spell persistent spell divine metamagic then at least one extra turning and high charisma The planning domain's granted power is the extend spell feat so a human cleric could knock-out the first three feats at level one. By third level he should be pick up extra turning and/or a nightstick. And really it only takes 7 turning attempts (six for persistent spell, one for DMM) unless I'm reading something wrong. Thanks Grax, you're probably right. I was under the impression that Persistent spell added 8 levels. Yes, that's disgustingly easy to pull off. Do you think my house rule nerfs this enough?
Grax 10-17-07, 08:06 PM	How 'bout this for a house rule (along with nightsticks not stacking, 'cause that one makes a lot of sense), you can only use as many turning attempts on DMM to a maximum of your charisma modifier. So to use DMM persistent spell you would need a modifier of +7 (charisma 24). That makes it so it won't happen for a long time and it's costly. It picks on DMM persistent spell the most making it more likely that a PC will go for something like empower spell or the like, and no domai (that I know of) gives you those feats. characters can still have the feats they need by first level and possibly the charisma, but at least they are not strutting about with divine power. Just an idea.