Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Olskool 02-23-07, 01:57 PM	I personally don't own Complete Divine. One of my players wants to use the Divine Metamagic rules in it in my camapign. Now I've given it a brief examination, and on it's own, DMM doesn't seem that ridiculously overpowered. But I still have my reservations. What are the most common abuses of this feat? What can I expect from my players with it? Is DMM acceptable if I don't allow persistant spell with it? Any of all y'all's thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thiez 02-23-07, 02:03 PM	There is an item from Libris Mortis (IIRC) that gives you extra Turns/day (Nightsticks?). In combination with a few of those, Divine Metamagic (Persistant) becomes very attractive.
Tempest Stormwind 02-23-07, 02:09 PM	The most common abuses involve using it with Quicken or Persistent spell to cast spells that you should never be able to. Persistent Divine Power is a common one (normally, that would be a 10th level spell, if I recall correctly, but you're casting it at level 7). If Persistent is banned, they'll just use Quicken. The simplest fix to all of it is one or both of the following: 1) Ban the nightstick, or change it so that it only applies if you have it in hand. (Currently, the nightstick gives you +4 turn attempts for merely owning the thing and having it stuffed in your backpack. A lot of divine metamagic clerics pack a lot of these and forget about them. Having it apply only in hand means that you can't use a nightstickfor more than 4 turns at once and that you can't carry a weapon and a shield at the same time.) 2) Say that the metamagic spell is bound by your maximum spell level. That is, you cannot use Divine Metamagic to cast a spell you couldn't normally cast (if a metamagic feat raises the spell to level 10, you can't cast it unless you have a 10th level spell slot). The second one REALLY should be enough, though. Do note the errata on it, though -- you have to choose a metamagic feat that you know to apply Divine Metamagic to.
jameswilliamogle 02-23-07, 02:11 PM	Everything that reduces metamagic costs such that you can cast spells that would've taken Epic level spell slots is pretty broken. That being said, the only thing thats really broken is combining DMM with Persistant spell. Even this doesn't get out of hand if you disallow the Nightstick item from Libris Mortis (which gives +4 turns per day). Still, the average Cleric given full access will have 1-2 persistant spells per day. If they chose Divine Power, they can basically do the Fighter's job, and can heal themselves. ________________________________________ _________ I've house ruled for my campaign that you can't reduce the cost of a metamagic through any ability such that it would use a spell slot that is of higher level than you could normally cast, plus one. Thus, you could Persist up to 4th level spells, but not until you could cast 9th level spells, and this would take only a 4th level slot as normal. It works really well; usually, the Clerics with this rule take DMM: Quicken instead, and Quicken low-level buff spells at the start of combat a few times per day, which isn't broken at all. He did take Persistant, and DMM: Persistant eventually, but at 18th level it was hardly broken. Also, this keeps the Incanatrix from getting out of hand, but also doesn't totally nerf them completely (the Wizard, since I first laid down this rule, didn't go w/ Incanatrix, though, opting for Master Specialist / Archmage / Fatespinner instead).
Olskool 02-23-07, 02:15 PM	Thanks Y'all. Appreciate it.
ccubed 02-23-07, 02:19 PM	Funny, I just replied to a thread detailing some fun with DM Persist here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11567939&postcount=2)
Qooroo 02-23-07, 04:31 PM	A really good observation I saw on (I believe) the RPGnet boards is that a) The only time Persistant Spell is ever used when not used in conjunction with an alternate way to pay for its costs is Gish builds using it to persist Wraithstrike, which is also kind of ridiculous. b) Whenever people discuss the brokenness of abilities that let you pay for metamagic costs without using spell slots, they inevitably focus their arguments on persistant spell. Now, you could use different bannings/house rules to get around different abuses (ban DMM, disallow persistant spell with swift one-round spells, etc. etc.), but it ultimately seems that the most effective way to reduce abuse without reducing potential for non-abusive behaviours is to ban Persistant Spell. If DMM is still causing problems, not allowing it to be used to apply metamagic effects that would normally cost slots above 9th level and/or disallowing the use of nightsticks to power the feat should solve those problems. DMM's a pretty cool feat, it's just got some powerfully exploits. Banning it strikes me as a bit of a 'baby with the bathwater' type of situation. EDIT: Upon further consideration, not letting Nightsticks power the feat might also eliminate most of the abuse. Yeah, characters can still divinely persist things, but it'll take a lot of feat-purchasing/charisma boosting to do it. Banning Persistant is probably more effective/reliable, but this should be another option. It can also be coupled with the cap on effective spell level.
Tempest Stormwind 02-23-07, 04:44 PM	The one, and only, version of Persistent I would ever allow is the psionic one from Hyperconscious -- it requires them to maintain their psionic focus, and since powers scale with power points and Persist costs +12 power points, that's an effective -12 ML. Thus, they have to choose between keeping their uber-expensive and weak power running and using a HUGE array of other feats -- including other metapsionic feats. The instant they lose their focus (because, say, they used another metapsi feat, or they were hit with an unfocusing strike, or any other reason), they lose their persistent effects. Obviously, this would take some tweaking to fit the magic system, but a caster level penalty on it and the inability to use other metamagic feats without ending the spell would be a good place to start.
DarkRhystar 02-23-07, 06:11 PM	Meh, folks should keep in mind that to persist even one spell you're spending: 3 feats: Extend, Persist, DMM 7 Turn Undead uses 1 spell slot That is a lot of resources. The value of that expenditure should be pretty darn good. It's not the people that persist one or two spells that break DMM/Persistent Spell. They're just making fair use of a good combination. It's the people who take Extra Turning, buy Nightsticks by the dozen, Beads of Karma, and the like that break it. Most of that is solved by saying that Nightsticks aren't available.
Gnarl 02-23-07, 06:20 PM	That is a lot of resources. The value of that expenditure should be pretty darn good. Of course it should be good, but DMM and Persistent Spell (or Quicken) makes any other combination of feats look ridiculous. That usually means something is a bit too good.
Tempest Stormwind 02-23-07, 06:20 PM	Meh, folks should keep in mind that to persist even one spell you're spending: 3 feats: Extend, Persist, DMM 7 Turn Undead uses 1 spell slot That is a lot of resources. The value of that expenditure should be pretty darn good. It's not the people that persist one or two spells that break DMM/Persistent Spell. They're just making fair use of a good combination. It's the people who take Extra Turning, buy Nightsticks by the dozen, Beads of Karma, and the like that break it. Most of that is solved by saying that Nightsticks aren't available. You can get it all at level 1, by the way, if you have a very high Charisma or the Undeath domin is available. Furthermore, consider what else a character can do with 3 feats -- I guarantee it's nowhere near as powerful or as versatile as that particular trick. To me, there's nothing fair about a spell that's so strong its only balancing factor is its rounds/level duration... being made to last all day. Especially when combined with other such spells. Consider the XP, caster level requirements, and so forth involved in Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). Now throw them all out the window for something infinitely better.
DarkRhystar 02-23-07, 06:25 PM	You can get it all at level 1, by the way, if you have a very high Charisma or the Undeath domin is available. Domains are more valuable than feats (see the epic bonus domain feat). If you're spending a valuable domain slot on this combination, you deserve it and then some. To me, there's nothing fair about a spell that's so strong its only balancing factor is its rounds/level duration... being made to last all day. Especially when combined with other such spells. Because it really changes how the Cleric is played so very much? A Cleric that persists Divine Power is how different than one who simply casts it before/during every fight? A few slots ahead (if he/she assumes it'll never be dispelled)? A single round ahead? This combination doesn't radically change how the Cleric may be played. It just gets the player to the fight without the prebuff stage. Consider the XP, caster level requirements, and so forth involved in Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). Now throw them all out the window for something infinitely better. Permanency isn't that great IMO so the loss is minimal.
TessarrianDM 02-23-07, 08:00 PM	I have houseruled that the nightstick must be in hand to activate. That being said, I used to be concerned about "gamebreaking" items or combinations until I realized just how many options I had as a DM to counter them. At the very least, anything a character can do, or has access to, so does an NPC. What prevents the BBEG from doing the same thing, with the same combination of feats/items? Nothing...except the DM. If you feel the player is abusing the combination, hit him with a greater dispel, or swamp the party with undead-he will soon regret using all those turn undead attempts to power divine feats. Don't let him buy nightsticks; force him to craft them (level 10 and Craft Rod, requiring the use of a fourth feat to maximize this combination), spending the 4 days, 3,750 gp, and 300 xp per rod to do it. At 10th level he has 13 nightsticks weighing 65 pounds, 250 gp worth of other gear, 3,900 less experience points and nothing else. Is he willing to take that risk? I doubt it. Over-specialization can kill you.
NoldorForce 02-23-07, 08:06 PM	Domains are more valuable than feats (see the epic bonus domain feat). If you're spending a valuable domain slot on this combination, you deserve it and then some.Just because there's an epic feat that does it doesn't mean it's all that great. Look at Epic Prowess, for instance. And in many cases, domain spells simply overlap with regular clerical spells.Because it really changes how the Cleric is played so very much? A Cleric that persists Divine Power is how different than one who simply casts it before/during every fight? A few slots ahead (if he/she assumes it'll never be dispelled)? A single round ahead?That single round or handful of spell slots can be very important, especially the former in a game where combats last three/four rounds on average.This combination doesn't radically change how the Cleric may be played. It just gets the player to the fight without the prebuff stage.Having a collection of buffs up ahead of time - all day, mind you, so they only need to be prepared once - removes a number of rounds required to prebuff. That makes for a rather large difference in combat ability when you have an extra attack and +10 to hit and damage at mid-levels. (These values scale to a certain degree with your level range, so they allow for wackiness at all levels but high epic.)
DarkRhystar 02-24-07, 01:22 AM	Please quote your items farther apart, it makes it a pain to parse them. :) Just because there's an epic feat that does it doesn't mean it's all that great. Look at Epic Prowess, for instance. And in many cases, domain spells simply overlap with regular clerical spells. Domains are that great. Undeath and Planning domains which are usually make their appearances in DMM builds not only give you domain spells, but also a feat. Also, domain spells may be on your spell list already, but if they're good an extra casting of them is always nice. That single round or handful of spell slots can be very important, especially the former in a game where combats last three/four rounds on average. A single round can be useful and at certain levels of power, it can decide the outcome of a battle. However, this is usually only found at extremely low levels (where everyone is one/two hits from death) or extremely high levels (where instant death isn't far away). At the mid levels where I would guess most folks play (5-15) range, battles (IME) last between 5 to 15 rounds. It's good, but don't overstate its utility just for the sake of argument. The handful of spellslots is a moot issue because one of two things will happen: 1) The Cleric doesn't memorize copies of the spell which frees up all those spellslots and a dispel will actually do more harm than it would to a non-DMM Cleric. 2) The Cleric memorizes backups in case something like that happens in which case those spellslots aren't really free. Having a collection of buffs up ahead of time - all day, mind you, so they only need to be prepared once - removes a number of rounds required to prebuff. That makes for a rather large difference in combat ability when you have an extra attack and +10 to hit and damage at mid-levels. (These values scale to a certain degree with your level range, so they allow for wackiness at all levels but high epic.) There are several assumptions here: 1) You are DMM'ing multiple spells. My belief about DMM is that it is fine with 1 or 2 spells as I mentioned above. Assuming more than that treads a realm I myself believe to be a little much. 2) You're assuming the resources expended to achieve all this DMM's could not have been put to an equally good use. If you have full access to gear and Wealth-By-Level guidelines, you actually notice that buying Nightsticks and relying on DMM/P for certain protections can actually be less efficient than simply buying items at certain levels. Divine Metamagic/Persistent Spell is a good solid combination and at a certain level of use (with certain items) it may become broken, but this doesn't necessarily hold true for all levels of use.
Bopple 02-24-07, 03:53 AM	At the mid levels where I would guess most folks play (5-15) range, battles (IME) last between 5 to 15 rounds. No, this is not true. Most battles end in 10 rounds. The average is about 5 rounds. That is why DMM persisted spells are valued. Combat action is the single most important resource in D&D3.5. If cleric can have neither Persisted Divine Power/Righteous Might nor Quickened DP/RM, people wouldn't claim a cleric is a better fighter than a fighter. Without them, cleric would waste his rounds buffing himself, then only to see the battle is half-over already.
Gnarl 02-24-07, 04:11 AM	A single round can be useful and at certain levels of power, it can decide the outcome of a battle. However, this is usually only found at extremely low levels (where everyone is one/two hits from death) or extremely high levels (where instant death isn't far away). At the mid levels where I would guess most folks play (5-15) range, battles (IME) last between 5 to 15 rounds. In my experience, a single round is important no matter what the level and battles last arround 4-5 rounds (ok 10 for the very strong fights). I guess play style has a lot to do with it though. 1) The Cleric doesn't memorize copies of the spell which frees up all those spellslots and a dispel will actually do more harm than it would to a non-DMM Cleric. 2) The Cleric memorizes backups in case something like that happens in which case those spellslots aren't really free. I guess your players haven't found Spell Girding and the Ring of Enduring Arcana yet. ;) Plus there aren't that many monsters with dispel magic and we all know NPCs suck for their CR. You can always put MDJ traps but that's kind of lame. 1) You are DMM'ing multiple spells. My belief about DMM is that it is fine with 1 or 2 spells as I mentioned above. Assuming more than that treads a realm I myself believe to be a little much. Personal buffs aren't that bad when made persistent. If you put enough combat pressure, the cleric is going to end up buffing and healing his team mates anyway. So I partially agree with you on that one. But 1 or 2 spells is a very big deal when properly chosen. The worst my players ever did was persistent Recitation and Righteous Might of the Faithful. The whole party had 24h buffs: +5 to hit, +3 to damage, +2 to saves, +2 AC, +1 attack per round. And all of these are moral and luck bonuses (the cleric gets another +1 to hit, saves and AC). 2) You're assuming the resources expended to achieve all this DMM's could not have been put to an equally good use. I really would appreciate your input on this one. Ever since I removed DMM from my games, my players are having a very hard time picking their feats.
DarkRhystar 02-24-07, 04:12 AM	No, this is not true. Most battles end in 10 rounds. The average is about 5 rounds. Are you seriously trying to tell me how long battles in my experience take? I added IME there for that reason you know. If your experience is different that's fine, your mileage may vary; however don't argue on what mine is. :) That is why DMM persisted spells are valued. Combat action is the single most important resource in D&D3.5. If cleric can have neither Persisted Divine Power/Righteous Might nor Quickened DP/RM, people wouldn't claim a cleric is a better fighter than a fighter. Without them, cleric would waste his rounds buffing himself, then only to see the battle is half-over already. Funny, I don't recall folks considering Divine Power or Righteous Might as "wasted rounds" before Divine Metamagic (though RM's errata is another story...). Now they suddenly are? I can't buy that because I disagree with your premise. :)
Bopple 02-24-07, 04:29 AM	Are you seriously trying to tell me how long battles in my experience take? I added IME there for that reason you know. It's rather your personal experience does not have significant meaning. Authors mentioned it's designed to be about 4-5 rounds combat. And with the new splatbooks, the battle ends even more faster than it used to do. I don't recall folks considering Divine Power or Righteous Might as "wasted rounds" Well, that's ambiguity of words. I used 'wasted', as no harm directly done to the foes. I can't buy that because I disagree with your premise. What premise? The meaning of 'wasted rounds'? Well, a bit rushed, I guess. Because I personally think 1 or 2 DMM persisted spells are actually good for the party mechanics. Without DMM, clerics waste too many rounds buffing. And by the time the buffings are finished, the party fighter has exchanged some blows with the enemies and usually needs some healing. After then, finally the cleric can have some fun, for himself. Maybe I hate the band-aid role too much.
Flan 02-24-07, 11:16 AM	No, this is not true. Most battles end in 10 rounds. The average is about 5 rounds. That is why DMM persisted spells are valued. 10 rounds? Try 1. Wizard + Cleric with metamagic rods, sudden metamagic and divine metamagic on maximize and our melee are basically useless. Stuff just explodes in the first round to assay spell resistance + maximized empowered sound lances, bolt of glory, orbs or whatever.
CaoSlayer 02-24-07, 11:37 AM	well, the feat is obiously broken when you compare it with the sudden metamagic feats. While for getting a sudden feat you need the regular one and only can be used once per day, you only need to take divine metamagic once and it works like sudden everything as long as you have turn uses.. by example with empower spell and 4 turn undead uses this feat allows you to "sudden empower" two spells while sudden only allows one and with silent or still the feat is four times more powerful than sudden silent. And sudden feats are very powerful themselves allowing to cast a more powerful spell once per day that you should be able to.
EvilVegan 02-24-07, 12:17 PM	Last time I checked persistent spells were dispellable. At worst I could see a cleric getting something like +8 to hit for 24 hours (with divine power at 20th level) and its very easy to dispel. Allow the feat, allow nightsticks, allow extra turning. Make the BBEG (or his cohort) a warlock with flying and dispel magic at will.
Merestil Haye 02-24-07, 12:40 PM	well, the feat is obiously broken when you compare it with the sudden metamagic feats. While for getting a sudden feat you need the regular one and only can be used once per day, you only need to take divine metamagic once and it works like sudden everything as long as you have turn uses..Wrong on two counts. Unless specifically stated, you do not need to have a regular metamagic feat to obtain the Sudden version. iirc the only Sudden feat with the regular one as a prereq is Sudden Quicken. Secondly, when you take DMM, you must choose a metamagic feat you already possess, and DMM can apply only to that metamagic feat. See the errata document on the Wizards website. by example with empower spell and 4 turn undead uses this feat allows you to "sudden empower" two spells while sudden only allows one and with silent or still the feat is four times more powerful than sudden silent.Nonsense. Read DMM again. To apply Empower with DMM requires three turning attempts. Silent or Still require 2. And having taken DMM multiple times. At worst I could see a cleric getting something like +8 to hit for 24 hours (with divine power at 20th level) and its very easy to dispel.Let's not forget the +3 damage. And the fact that the character's base attack is now +20, with all that that implies - 4 iterative attacks, better use of Power Attack and/or Combat Expertise. Also that 20th level cleric may well have a caster level of 24 or 25, meaning that Greater Dispel has only a 30 or 35% chance per spell of working. The cleric's likely to have a few other buff spells running - Greater Visage of the Deity, Righteous Might and Divine Favour come to mind. Personally? Yes I do allow them - but I then have to (every now and again) come up with ways to neuter the character to allow others to shine. My last campaign, actually everyone seemed to get some quality spotlight time in crushing foes. (But then, they're all spellcasters of one form or another.)
TessarrianDM 02-24-07, 01:22 PM	Allow the feat, allow nightsticks, allow extra turning. Agreed. There is nothing the player can do that the DM cannot counter in some manner. It just takes a little imagination.:D As for divine feats in particular, many of them can be powered just as well by rebuke attempts, so they can be used against the party just as easily as the party can use them. If Divine Metamagic + Persitent Spell is so great, why doesn't every NPC divine caster that can rebuke undead take full advantage of them on a daily basis? The answer? There is no combination of feats, abilities, items, etc. that will make any PC or NPC immune to damage in any possible situation. They will always have a weakness somewhere. You just have to find it.
DarkRhystar 02-24-07, 01:38 PM	Just noticed I accidentally skipped Gnarl. Sorry about that. :) In my experience, a single round is important no matter what the level and battles last arround 4-5 rounds (ok 10 for the very strong fights). I guess play style has a lot to do with it though. Very much so. I guess your players haven't found Spell Girding and the Ring of Enduring Arcana yet. ;) Plus there aren't that many monsters with dispel magic and we all know NPCs suck for their CR. You can always put MDJ traps but that's kind of lame. You're correct on the former. On the latter, you don't have to have every NPC carrying a dispel magic. Just use it enough in the game to make the Cleric prepare a copy buff or two (whether or not they actually use it). I don't use MDJ (mostly because my games usually don't get that high level-wise). Personal buffs aren't that bad when made persistent. If you put enough combat pressure, the cleric is going to end up buffing and healing his team mates anyway. So I partially agree with you on that one. But 1 or 2 spells is a very big deal when properly chosen. The worst my players ever did was persistent Recitation and Righteous Might of the Faithful. The whole party had 24h buffs: +5 to hit, +3 to damage, +2 to saves, +2 AC, +1 attack per round. And all of these are moral and luck bonuses (the cleric gets another +1 to hit, saves and AC). 1 or 2 spells should be a big deal if you're sacrificing 3 feats, 7-14 turn undead uses, and 1-2 spells. I really would appreciate your input on this one. Ever since I removed DMM from my games, my players are having a very hard time picking their feats. I was actually speaking from the equipment purchasing point of view (hence why I mentioned the WBL). Take a mid-teen level Cleric (12 maybe) and buy as many Nightsticks as you can and see what you can get. Then take that same Cleric and see how far you can get with just Extend spell and regular equipment. When I did it (this was a while back), the two weren't so very different. This was assuming a few items that increased caster level too (Bead of Karma). It's rather your personal experience does not have significant meaning. It does to me. Authors mentioned it's designed to be about 4-5 rounds combat. Because we all know that the authors in their infinite wisdom are always right and have never given bad information or advice in books... :P And with the new splatbooks, the battle ends even more faster than it used to do. Nice broad generalization about the power level of "new" splat books. Well, that's ambiguity of words. I used 'wasted', as no harm directly done to the foes. So every round you must be dealing direct harm to foes? There's more ambiguity in harm than in entire posts of this thread. What premise? The meaning of 'wasted rounds'? Well, a bit rushed, I guess. The premise that all combat is as short as you describe, therefore DMM is that powerful. Because I personally think 1 or 2 DMM persisted spells are actually good for the party mechanics. Without DMM, clerics waste too many rounds buffing. And by the time the buffings are finished, the party fighter has exchanged some blows with the enemies and usually needs some healing. After then, finally the cleric can have some fun, for himself. Maybe I hate the band-aid role too much. Interesting.
Gnarl 02-24-07, 06:53 PM	Just noticed I accidentally skipped Gnarl. Sorry about that. :) No problem. You're correct on the former. On the latter, you don't have to have every NPC carrying a dispel magic. Just use it enough in the game to make the Cleric prepare a copy buff or two (whether or not they actually use it). I don't use MDJ (mostly because my games usually don't get that high level-wise). Of course there is always some way to counter your player's vicious plans. I try to keep it fair on the players as much as possible. I consider having an unusual amount of dispel magic unfair in this situation. If one of your players has some ability so strong that you need to adapt your adventure to make a suitable challenge, then that usually means something is wrong. 1 or 2 spells should be a big deal if you're sacrificing 3 feats, 7-14 turn undead uses, and 1-2 spells. When I make a cleric, I try to make sure I have something to do with all those usually useless turning checks so I usually go for one of those divine feats. As I mentioned before, I usually consider something to be unbalanced when any other option looks suboptimal. I'm not saying that a cleric shouldn't get a decent return on investment with his choice of feats, it's just that those 3 feats are much much much better than any other combination of feats. All in all, what I'm saying is that of course you can live with divine metamagic but it all comes down to whether a DM wants to spend more time adapting his adventures to take feats such as Divine Metamagic into account. I'm not one of them.
TheDarkLord 02-24-07, 07:37 PM	Wow, since when do battles average 5 rounds? I deal with tactical players and I myself am a Tactical DM. If an encounter lasts less than 5 rounds (30 seconds) then my players start getting Irritated because I am doing something wrong. Out of curiosity, do your BBEG's know they can fall back and regroup? Have you ever tried a "Battle on the Run" type of encounter? It's part of the reason we love ToB so much. It's rare during an encounter that a melee fighter will get more than 2 full attacks, many times he only has the opportunity for one before enemies start moving and falling back to regroup and heal themselves.
Bopple 02-25-07, 01:20 AM	It does to me. So what? Because we all know that the authors in their infinite wisdom are always right and have never given bad information or advice in books... Your exaggeration and sarcasm does not make your argument more valid. Nice broad generalization about the power level of "new" splat books. Wraithstrike, Assay Resistance, Moon Bolt, Divine Metamagic, Shivering Touch, Orb spells, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, so many PrCs, ToB and ectectect. What? Broad generalization? So every round you must be dealing direct harm to foes? When did I say so? You are exaggerating again. No, I said watching others having fun for more than half the battle is not fun. There's more ambiguity in harm than in entire posts of this thread. Again, your sarcasm does not make your opinion more valid. The premise that all combat is as short as you describe, therefore DMM is that powerful. Mine is based on my experience and on authors' intention. My premise is wrong? Yeah, whatever. But how about yours which is solely on your experience? Are you in a place to criticise my premise? I don't think so.
Paragon_of_Tyr 02-25-07, 01:42 AM	I don't think it's broken. I think the DM can take steps to guard against combos with it using Dispel and limiting item combos. It gives players options. I think that strengthening what was already powerful Magic classes at high levels to begin with is what the designers should have looked at. The DM then has to adjust his game to have spellcasters on the opposing side to balance things out. But then that's the fate of the DM, he has to adjust to his groups. Ever since we got Tome of Blood we've had an all-warrior group come out at 1st level which would probably be killed by skeletons.
Bopple 02-25-07, 01:56 AM	Wow, since when do battles average 5 rounds? Well, let's see. How much damage a round can a 20th lvl fighter do to a balor, CR20. HP 290. AC35? Starts with Str16. +5 lvl increase, +5 Inherent bonus, +6 Enh bonus = 32. Feats: Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, WF, GWF, WS, GWS, MWM, Weapon Supremacy Atk: 40 = 20(BAB) +11(Str) +5(Enh) +4(feats) Dmg: 61 = 2d6(greatsword) +5(Enh) +16(Str) +6(feats) +2d6(Holy) +20(greater wounding) Power Attack: 80 = 40*2(Shock Trooper And Leap Attack) Total 141 damage. If you don't want to use Shock Trooper, just PA 8 and total damage would be about 93. On top of that, put some like Greater Heroism, Haste, Robilar's Gambit, Rage(well 1 lvl of barbie is good enough), Valorous weapon ability, Wrathful Healing ability, and ect. If you multiclass a bit more, stack up True Strike, Wraithstrike, Arcane Strike, and ect. He is only one of the 4 men. And it's only a pure 20 lvl fighter - one of the weakest character type. It gets out of hand so quickly. 5-rounds is even an underestimated value.
TheDarkLord 02-25-07, 02:31 AM	To Bopple with no offence meant ;). If you set up an encounter with a Balor he isn't going to be stupid enough to just let you waltz up to him and hit him. What about his henchmen? His SLA's? Why don't we just give him some feats that don't suck? Let's take a look at the Balor: BALOR Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (290 hp) Initiative: +11 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (good) Armor Class: 35 (–1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 28 Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+36 Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +33 melee (2d6+8/19–20) Full Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d6+8/19–20) and +1 flaming whip +30/+25 melee (1d4+4 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle); or 2 slams +31 melee (1d10+7) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with +1 flaming whip) Special Attacks: Death throes, entangle, spell-like abilities, summon demon, vorpal sword Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Saves: Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19 Abilities: Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26 Skills: Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Spot +38, Survival +7 (+9 following tracks), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls) Feats: Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword) Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane Organization: Solitary or troupe (1 balor, 1 marilith, and 2–5 hezrous) Challenge Rating: 20 Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus +1 vorpal greatsword and +1 flaming whip Alignment: Always chaotic evil Advancement: 21–30 HD (Large); 31–60 HD (Huge) Death Throes (Ex):When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half ). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based. Entangle (Ex): A balor’s +1 flaming whip entangles foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has 20 hit points. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and the balor immediately make opposed Strength checks; if the balor wins, it drags the target against its flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against the balor’s body until it escapes the whip. Spell-Like Abilities: At will— blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Vorpal Sword (Su): Every balor carries a +1 vorpal longsword that looks like a flame or a bolt of lightning. Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell. Flaming Body (Su): The body of a balor is wreathed in flame. Anyone grappling a balor takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round. True Seeing (Su): Balors have a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell (caster level 20th). Skills: Balors have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Ok. As a DM who deal's with players who are, all in all, pure walking Swiss, I ask myself how can I challenge them. Say we use the Standard Archetype 4. The Wizard, The Cleric, The Rogue, the Fighter. The Balor has with him, some of his treasure, which includes various wands, potions, rods, and staffs. Not only that he's got his little Troup along with counts towards it's CR. 1 Balor, 1 Marilith, and 1d4+1 Hezrou, let's average and give him 3 hezrou. Ok. Say combat starts at 100 ft. This is a relatively open place with light cover. He see's his enemies are well equipped and whatnot. He immediatly summons another Balor. That is now 2 balors, 1 marilith and 3 Hezrou. He then takes his move action and flys back and up away from the opponents. He also commands his Troup and the summon balor to run interference, IE stay between him and the PC's. Engage them by using grapple, trip, and striking, just keep them at a distance, and hold them up slightly. As the battle ensues, he uses greater dispel magic on players and such, also using implosion on the Fort weak characters, Dominate on the will weak characters. He also has Greater Teleport and Blasphemy at will to which he could use to great effect. He is built to stay at range and not enter into melee. His minions while weaker than him, can effectivly hold up fighter type characters and casters. Say he has wands. He might have a wand that boosts his charisma, he might have Items that have already boosted his charisma as well, such as tomes, wishes, and whatnot. I would also trade out the TWF tree for some quicken spell like ability, and ability boosts. That way he can quicken some of his offensive things while still buffing himself. He can keep a good range between himself and any fighter type character pretty easily. Once he leaves easy melee range he can then have what's left of his henchmen move in on the spellcasters of the party. The rogue while quick is definatly lacking in hit points and that would be the main target of the Marility, the Hezrous could bull rush the casters while that second balor could enter melee with the fighter. To get really in depth, I'd need four characters and have to know their feats, stats, and spells from a DM's perspective. This way I could and would switch the balor's feats around, not to mention give some more thought into magic Item selection. Death ward effects would be a must. All in all, this combat could last well past 5 rounds.
Bopple 02-25-07, 02:43 AM	Yeah, it could be longer. But you set up a higher CR encounter. And you are assuming balor would win the initiative and can counter every single move by the party. To get really in depth, I'd need four characters and have to know their feats, stats, and spells from a DM's perspective. Yeah, if you customize every encounter, to counter a specific party, you can squash any single party. However, what does it prove, other than metagaming is an awful thing to do?
TheDarkLord 02-25-07, 02:46 AM	Yeah, it could be long. But you set up a higher CR encounter. And you are assuming balor would win the initiative and can counter every single move by the party. You know, I thought that the CR included it's Group thing and it's summon ability? It doesn't? And yeah, I'm assuming the Balor got initiative over at least some members of the party concidering it has a +11 to dex or more with magic Items and such.
Bopple 02-25-07, 02:55 AM	Summon is included in CR. But adding a creature will increase CR.
TheDarkLord 02-25-07, 03:00 AM	My first ever Double Post... My cable must have glitched.
TheDarkLord 02-25-07, 03:01 AM	Yeah I know adding a creature and summoning will, I just thought the group was involved as well. Ah well, my player's will never know the difference :D. But seriously, If you can kill a balor in one round, is the CR really justified? Because it is Definately justified if you use the whole group thing in the line. And at High levels you really have to customize every incounter. At least in my experience anyway.
navar100 02-25-07, 03:23 AM	My group's last campaign started before 3.5 came out. I had Persistent Spell at +4 spell levels. When 3.5 came out, we did slowly switch to it. I personally was not happy with the change to +6 levels. Had that been the rule when I created my character, I would not have chosen it. I asked my DM if he was going to switch Persistent to 3.5, to allow me to change the feat to Quicken Spell. I would still have pretty much what I wanted. I was liking Extend Spell so I didn't mind keeping it. The DM was ok with leaving Peresistent Spell at the original +4. I did eventually take Divine Metamagic for it. (In our now new campaign Persistent is +6 levels, but not because of what I'm about to say. It's just that we're now officially all 3.5 as a base plus some Rule 0's.) No question, I was uberclericoverlord at 18th level. All Persisted - naturally or with DMM: Divine Favor, Divine Power, Mass Lesser Vigor, Greater Visage of the Deity. Extended Heroes' Feast was nice too. It was even DM admitted a very high powered game. The DM saw the power creep but instead of reeling it in, he let it go as far as it did to see how everything worked at the extreme so that he'd have a better feel for it the next campaign. It still might be high power, but it would be more controlled. Anyway, by various means my cleric had an effective 50 strength. With all my pluses, I couldn't miss anything except on a 1 even with my last attack in a full attack (my fourth thanks to Divine Power). Our dedicated warrior psychic warrior/barbarian/war mind had his own uberness, our rogue was a two-weapon fighting machete and our wizard was near Elminster, not counting Epic stuff. Anyway, my cleric/sacred exorcist also had saving throws up the whazoo. Despite all my power, I had two weaknesses. The first weakness, which really isn't one per se but just how it is, is that I could either be the warrior and fight or be the cleric and cast spells, not both. Which I did depended on the combat. It is good I had the versatility. That is a strength, I suppose, but for an individual combat I could only be a dedicated warrior or a dedicated cleric. When I was a dedicated cleric, my persisted spells, except for Greater Visage indirectly, really did diddlysquat. My second weakness was my touch AC. My regular AC was fine, when we weren't facing opponents with the same ridiculous attack modifier I and the dedicated warrior had, but even a 1st level character could hit my touch AC. There was no spell to improve it. Not high enough and differently named bonuses to help from magic items. What kept me going was my hit points, which was over 200. Anyone who had to make a touch attack against me got me good. Energy Resistance and Energy Immunity spells helped, but I was never completely safe. When I was just ubercleric and not uberclericoverlord (before I had DMM but still had Persistent Spell yet nowhere near effective 50 strength) my alignment was magically changed. The party had a cure, but it was necesary to knock me out since I couldn't/wouldn't take it willingly. Our lovable rogue got me good. Bluffed me for a surprise then two-weapon machete me with sneak attack. Beat me in initiative and macheted me again. Only because I already had uberhitpoints and at full health did the war mind have to take a swing at me before they finally knocked me out. It was a side effect of that cure that helped me to get the effective 50 strength. My point? I'm just sharing. :P Also, while it is true even for 3.5 a DMM Persistent cleric can be an uberclericoverlord, he's not invulnerable. Maybe his saves won't be as good as mine were. His touch AC will still probably be the pits. A DMM Persistent cleric fits in a high powered game. What is high powered is probably varying mileage, but is also probably obvious. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
Bopple 02-25-07, 03:42 AM	Preparing your encounter well is one thing. Aiming/Metagaming for a specific party is another. CR system hasn't been a precise method to evaluate the encounter, any way. With the new splatbooks, it's even more imprecise. But with CR, we can gauge it approximately and facilitate the customization(not metagaming), at least. I think that serves its purpose enough. Edit) And the whole point of the example of balor is not to show you how powerful build I can make. Nor I claim I can kill balor in 1 round. It does not have to be specifically a balor, either. Any monster will do. The point is, battles don't last that long. Very few combats would go beyond 10 rounds. If a combat lasts 5-15 rounds(I am not sure what's the avg. DarkRhyster is claiming, but let's just assume it's 10, the middle value), it is something off, while one of the weakest character type can deal damage about half the total hp to a CR20 monster with one hit.
Urithair 02-25-07, 11:45 AM	The most broken use of DMM is the fact that with the right domain (time or planning, I think) you can cast and persist Foresight as an 8th level spell. With Foresight up all day you pretty much are invincible, since you have time to react to anything bad that happens to you. Its not as bad as persistant arcane, because its harder to access celerity, but it can be done. Also, imo if you dispel the party every time they enter battle, you might as well ban the mechanic that nessesitates the dispelling, because in practice they amount to the same thing.
starvinmarvin07 02-25-07, 12:27 PM	The reason DMM is broken is b/c with Persistent spell you can have obscenely powerful characters literally 24/7. What happens when someone persists a 7th lvl, round/lvl buff spell. Normally they couldn't buff up with that spell before every combat (unless they're pretty high lvl), but now they have it all day, for one casting. I vote for the fix, if it raises the spell level above what you can cast, you don't get to cast it. Now, if they wanna use feats to bring down the metamagic cost so they can cast it, fine. If they're willing to specialize that far for that buff, be my guest.
EvilVegan 02-25-07, 12:47 PM	Also, imo if you dispel the party every time they enter battle, you might as well ban the mechanic that nessesitates the dispelling, because in practice they amount to the same thing. It would be ludicrous to do so at the beginning of every battle, but it would be equally absurd to not do so when battling long-time enemies that should know you walk around with 24 hour mega-buffs. So it helps most of the time (random encounters and minion encounters), but against intelligent (not metagaming) enemies bent on your demise you can't depend on divine persistent spell for much.
Gnarl 02-25-07, 05:17 PM	It would be ludicrous to do so at the beginning of every battle, but it would be equally absurd to not do so when battling long-time enemies that should know you walk around with 24 hour mega-buffs. So it helps most of the time (random encounters and minion encounters), but against intelligent (not metagaming) enemies bent on your demise you can't depend on divine persistent spell for much. The thing is, with DMM + Persistent Spell, no single sane cleric doesn't have it. So it's reasonable to assume that if some opponent is wearing a holy symbol, then you need to use dispel magic on him (without metamaging) ;).
DarkRhystar 02-25-07, 09:18 PM	Your exaggeration and sarcasm does not make your argument more valid. It couldn't be any more valid than it is; the sarcasm is just for amusement. Wraithstrike, Assay Resistance, Moon Bolt, Divine Metamagic, Shivering Touch, Orb spells, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, so many PrCs, ToB and ectectect. What? Broad generalization? Your list is cute, but what's it for? Am I supposed to pick out the things that don't belong? Tome of Battle and Orbs versus Wraithstrike and Shivering Touch? When did I say so? You are exaggerating again. I made nothing up. You defined "wasted" as "no harm directly done to the foes" and I simply called you on the ambiguity of harm. A grease spell doesn't directly harm (in one definition of the term) foes, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a wasted round. No, I said watching others having fun for more than half the battle is not fun. I don't know about you but I like watching others have fun while I have fun. The two are not somehow mutually exclusive. ;) Again, your sarcasm does not make your opinion more valid. And again you attack my tone instead of my statement. I'm sure that's the easier choice. Mine is based on my experience and on authors' intention. Oh, so experience matters when it's your experience. I see how that works. My premise is wrong? Yeah, whatever. But how about yours which is solely on your experience? Are you in a place to criticise my premise? I don't think so. Everyone who has played the game is in a place to criticize your premise if they so choose. Some will share your opinions and some such as myself will not. You bring your facts to the table, I bring mine, someone else brings theirs, and everyone involved makes their own judgment. To each their own. :)
Bopple 02-25-07, 09:30 PM	It couldn't be any more valid than it is; the sarcasm is just for amusement. It's rather called rudeness, FYI. Your list is cute, but what's it for? Am I supposed to pick out the things that don't belong? Tome of Battle and Orbs versus Wraithstrike and Shivering Touch? You are not getting the point. It's not about which material is more powerful. It's about, if the powerlevel is increasing or not, with new splatbooks. I made nothing up. You defined "wasted" as "no harm directly done to the foes" and I simply called you on the ambiguity of harm. A grease spell doesn't directly harm (in one definition of the term) foes, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a wasted round. Oh, seeing that you took Grease as an example, my notion of 'harm' actually perfectly got to you. That means you are just nitpicking. I don't know about you but I like watching others have fun while I have fun. The two are not somehow mutually exclusive. ;) Yeah, and no wonder they made cleric much more powerful than other classes. And why a healer is considered to be one of the weakest and the most boring class. And why so many people hate a band-aid role. And why so many people hated playing clerics back in AD&D era. And again you attack my tone instead of my statement. I'm sure that's the easier choice. Because they are actually vain arguments(actually not even an argument but just a personal attack). Oh, so experience matters when it's your experience. I see how that works. No, I did not say my experience is more important than yours. But my experience incidentally coincides with the intention of authors, unlike yours. ;) Everyone who has played the game is in a place to criticize your premise if they so choose. Yeah, but your premise is based on your personal experience only. Nor have you shown how most battles would last THAT long. That holds little validity. :P Some will share your opinions and some such as myself will not. You bring your facts to the table, I bring mine, someone else brings theirs, and everyone involved makes their own judgment. Well, where are your facts?
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 09:37 PM	Wraithstrike, Assay Resistance, Moon Bolt, Divine Metamagic, Shivering Touch, Orb spells, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, so many PrCs, ToB and ectectect. I think many of the new things are good for the game. Not all of them, but many are. Especially ToB, so melee aclasses aren't screwed. If we add in ToB, battles may end even faster.
EvilVegan 02-26-07, 08:59 AM	The thing is, with DMM + Persistent Spell, no single sane cleric doesn't have it. So it's reasonable to assume that if some opponent is wearing a holy symbol, then you need to use dispel magic on him (without metamaging) ;). True enough, but as a DM I wouldn't make it a point to make sure every encounter had an enemy capable of casting dispel magic. That was more my point, but I wasn't clear enough. :P Grunts and random encounters aren't guaranteed to have dispel magic, but the BBEG better be stocked up on them if he's remotely intelligent. And if a random encounter features someone with dispel magic, then by all means they would use it on the double-sized, arsenal-toting holy man.