Divine Spellcasters and Obtain Familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine Spellcasters and Obtain Familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kurama Youko
09-19-07, 08:53 AM Okay, so I've been thinking. Familiar's aren't really that great in the hands of wizards or sorcerers or anyone else for that matter, but in some cases they could be kind of useful. So I was thinking what if a divine spellcaster like a Cleric who took feats obtain a arcane caster level, such as Fey Presence, Fey Legacy, or Fiendish Legacy/Presence and then took Obtain Familiar. Would the master lv's level be considered the arcane caster level to which allowed him to take this feat, or would be the number of levels he has in the class he was advancing in at the time of acquiring the feat?

My own better judgement is telling me that it would indeed be the arcane caster level that allowed him to qualify for the feat, as oppose to anything else. What say you feat board?
Kouk
09-19-07, 12:56 PM Do those feats state any caster level?

If they only give Arcane CL 1 then the familiar's abilities would be partly tied to that level, for purposes of the abilities granted according to the chart.

Things like HP and Skill Points would still be tied to your character, regardless of what classes he had..
Kurama Youko
09-19-07, 02:35 PM Fey Presence, Legacy, and the Fiendish version specifically specify that your caster for these spell-like abilities are equal to your character level.
BloodDragon
09-19-07, 03:03 PM Well Obtain Familiar requires a caster level of 3rd, and the familiar level is based on all your arcane casting levels added together.
So you need level 3 in something arcane to begin with, easy enough.

If your referring to Fiendish Bloodline it gives you spells with non-specified types.
And even if the spells are consider arcane you don't have an actual "Arcane Caster level" you simply have spell-like abilities.

And Fey Prescience requires you to be able to cast 5th level arcane spells, and the spells it grants you are already based off of your arcane caster level.
So you need to be a wizard of 9th level at earliest to take this.

Woops: Fey Presence, and Legacy same as the Fiendish Bloodline. They give you spell-like abilities not actaul caster levels. So you familiar wouldn't benifit from these either.

If your looking to maximize your familiar you can take a look in the optimization boards for the Familiar handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=875062) by Dictum Mortuum, but if your opposed to that idea you could take a ability which replaced your familiar with something else, then take the Obtain Familiar feat and then go into Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, or Abjurat Champion.
Thanks to how the Obtain Familiar is stated your caster levels stack to determine your Familiar's abilities, and your familiar enjoys your full BAB progression and better HD of any of those classes (5th level Abjurat Champion allows your familiars level eqaul your caster level or BAB, which ever is higher).

There is also the Arcane Hierophant class from Races of the Wild which combines your animal compainion and your familiar into one animal that gain both benifits. It progresses much like a druid so you probably can get alot out of that as well.
Kurama Youko
09-19-07, 03:30 PM did no else buy Complete Mage? Is was far better than Complete Arcane.. sigh.

Fey Heritage, and the Fey Heritage line of feats consist of Fey Heritage, Fey Skin, Fey Power, Fey Legacy, and Fey Presence then their are the fiendish versions which is my real gripe. The last two in particular offer 3 spell-like abilities each, for a total of 6 1/day spell-like abilities with a caster level equal to your character level. These feats and the can be found on page 43 of the Complete Mage. My assumption is based more so on the fact that in the monster manual, it simply says that spell-like abilities are considered to be arcane spells unless they don't appear on a wiz/sorc spell-list, to which then they default to cleric/druid/paladin/ranger in that order. Now I can see some reasons as to believe that some of the Fey spell-like abilities might fall under druid and thus are divine, that and most fey creatures cast spells as divine im assuming (atleast the dryad uses wisdom for its SLA.)

However the fiendish ones seem very much in line with arcane power. Hence I figure once you take those 3 feats (fiendish heritage, fiendish presence, fiendish legacy, you now qualify for Obtain Familiar.)

I'm very aware of the Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine however those specifically require you to be able to cast arcane spells spontaneously, not spell-like abilities.
Fireclave
09-19-07, 03:43 PM However the fiendish ones seem very much in line with arcane power. Hence I figure once you take those 3 feats (fiendish heritage, fiendish presence, fiendish legacy, you now qualify for Obtain Familiar.)
Having spell-like abilities that are treated as arcane does not actually give you an arcane caster level, and therefore does not qualify you for the Obtain Familiar feat.
BloodDragon
09-19-07, 03:47 PM Abjurat Champion is from complete mage... page 50.

Either way the listed feats given are Spell-like abilities that you are able to cast at a set caster level, however you still lack an actually Arcane Caster Level thus your Obtain familiar can’t trigger off of these feats. The same is true for any feat that grants you a spell-like ability. Otherwise gnome fighter's could start entering PrCs ment for spellcasters.

I highly suggest reading that hankbook I linked, it can give you more insight then one person as an entire community help build it.

You can read about Spell-Like Abilities on page 315 of the MMI?
Puca
09-20-07, 04:23 PM Commas are great. Hyphens solve quite a few issues too.

This FAQ entry doesnt mention this feat, but it still seems relevant to me:

Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced
Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires
“Spellcaster level 5th”?
No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your
caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats,
class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual
level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this
requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”)
The same applies for characters whose caster level is less
than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster
level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is
only 2nd.

I read the “arcane caster level 3rd” in the Obtain familiar feat this same way, i.e. “arcane caster, level 3rd." It can be read “arcane caster-level 5th” and Im not saying it cant.

Those who use SLAs can take the Obtain Familiar feat, e.g. warlocks. If you read the prereqs for the feat as caster-level, and have an SLA from any source even a feat, and if that SLA is considered arcane, which Youko seems to have demonstrated, then you would be able to qualify for the Obtain Familiar feat.

Youd have zero levels in an arcane class though. So technically, your familiar would get no bonuses, not even the first-level ones, based on class-level. All things based on character-level would work though, hps, skills, saves, etc.
Kurama Youko
09-20-07, 04:53 PM I decided to E-mail Customer service about this. Though their reply wasn't exactly what I had hoped for. It does seem fair.

Basically, what they said is "Yes, these feats would allow a non arcane caster to take Obtain Familiar. However since you don't have a any arcane "class levels" you're familiar wouldn't gain any benefits from your classes." .... oh well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kurama Youko 09-19-07, 08:53 AM	Okay, so I've been thinking. Familiar's aren't really that great in the hands of wizards or sorcerers or anyone else for that matter, but in some cases they could be kind of useful. So I was thinking what if a divine spellcaster like a Cleric who took feats obtain a arcane caster level, such as Fey Presence, Fey Legacy, or Fiendish Legacy/Presence and then took Obtain Familiar. Would the master lv's level be considered the arcane caster level to which allowed him to take this feat, or would be the number of levels he has in the class he was advancing in at the time of acquiring the feat? My own better judgement is telling me that it would indeed be the arcane caster level that allowed him to qualify for the feat, as oppose to anything else. What say you feat board?
Kouk 09-19-07, 12:56 PM	Do those feats state any caster level? If they only give Arcane CL 1 then the familiar's abilities would be partly tied to that level, for purposes of the abilities granted according to the chart. Things like HP and Skill Points would still be tied to your character, regardless of what classes he had..
Kurama Youko 09-19-07, 02:35 PM	Fey Presence, Legacy, and the Fiendish version specifically specify that your caster for these spell-like abilities are equal to your character level.
BloodDragon 09-19-07, 03:03 PM	Well Obtain Familiar requires a caster level of 3rd, and the familiar level is based on all your arcane casting levels added together. So you need level 3 in something arcane to begin with, easy enough. If your referring to Fiendish Bloodline it gives you spells with non-specified types. And even if the spells are consider arcane you don't have an actual "Arcane Caster level" you simply have spell-like abilities. And Fey Prescience requires you to be able to cast 5th level arcane spells, and the spells it grants you are already based off of your arcane caster level. So you need to be a wizard of 9th level at earliest to take this. Woops: Fey Presence, and Legacy same as the Fiendish Bloodline. They give you spell-like abilities not actaul caster levels. So you familiar wouldn't benifit from these either. If your looking to maximize your familiar you can take a look in the optimization boards for the Familiar handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=875062) by Dictum Mortuum, but if your opposed to that idea you could take a ability which replaced your familiar with something else, then take the Obtain Familiar feat and then go into Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, or Abjurat Champion. Thanks to how the Obtain Familiar is stated your caster levels stack to determine your Familiar's abilities, and your familiar enjoys your full BAB progression and better HD of any of those classes (5th level Abjurat Champion allows your familiars level eqaul your caster level or BAB, which ever is higher). There is also the Arcane Hierophant class from Races of the Wild which combines your animal compainion and your familiar into one animal that gain both benifits. It progresses much like a druid so you probably can get alot out of that as well.
Kurama Youko 09-19-07, 03:30 PM	did no else buy Complete Mage? Is was far better than Complete Arcane.. sigh. Fey Heritage, and the Fey Heritage line of feats consist of Fey Heritage, Fey Skin, Fey Power, Fey Legacy, and Fey Presence then their are the fiendish versions which is my real gripe. The last two in particular offer 3 spell-like abilities each, for a total of 6 1/day spell-like abilities with a caster level equal to your character level. These feats and the can be found on page 43 of the Complete Mage. My assumption is based more so on the fact that in the monster manual, it simply says that spell-like abilities are considered to be arcane spells unless they don't appear on a wiz/sorc spell-list, to which then they default to cleric/druid/paladin/ranger in that order. Now I can see some reasons as to believe that some of the Fey spell-like abilities might fall under druid and thus are divine, that and most fey creatures cast spells as divine im assuming (atleast the dryad uses wisdom for its SLA.) However the fiendish ones seem very much in line with arcane power. Hence I figure once you take those 3 feats (fiendish heritage, fiendish presence, fiendish legacy, you now qualify for Obtain Familiar.) I'm very aware of the Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine however those specifically require you to be able to cast arcane spells spontaneously, not spell-like abilities.
Fireclave 09-19-07, 03:43 PM	However the fiendish ones seem very much in line with arcane power. Hence I figure once you take those 3 feats (fiendish heritage, fiendish presence, fiendish legacy, you now qualify for Obtain Familiar.) Having spell-like abilities that are treated as arcane does not actually give you an arcane caster level, and therefore does not qualify you for the Obtain Familiar feat.
BloodDragon 09-19-07, 03:47 PM	Abjurat Champion is from complete mage... page 50. Either way the listed feats given are Spell-like abilities that you are able to cast at a set caster level, however you still lack an actually Arcane Caster Level thus your Obtain familiar can’t trigger off of these feats. The same is true for any feat that grants you a spell-like ability. Otherwise gnome fighter's could start entering PrCs ment for spellcasters. I highly suggest reading that hankbook I linked, it can give you more insight then one person as an entire community help build it. You can read about Spell-Like Abilities on page 315 of the MMI?
Puca 09-20-07, 04:23 PM	Commas are great. Hyphens solve quite a few issues too. This FAQ entry doesnt mention this feat, but it still seems relevant to me: Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”? No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) The same applies for characters whose caster level is less than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is only 2nd. I read the “arcane caster level 3rd” in the Obtain familiar feat this same way, i.e. “arcane caster, level 3rd." It can be read “arcane caster-level 5th” and Im not saying it cant. Those who use SLAs can take the Obtain Familiar feat, e.g. warlocks. If you read the prereqs for the feat as caster-level, and have an SLA from any source even a feat, and if that SLA is considered arcane, which Youko seems to have demonstrated, then you would be able to qualify for the Obtain Familiar feat. Youd have zero levels in an arcane class though. So technically, your familiar would get no bonuses, not even the first-level ones, based on class-level. All things based on character-level would work though, hps, skills, saves, etc.
Kurama Youko 09-20-07, 04:53 PM	I decided to E-mail Customer service about this. Though their reply wasn't exactly what I had hoped for. It does seem fair. Basically, what they said is "Yes, these feats would allow a non arcane caster to take Obtain Familiar. However since you don't have a any arcane "class levels" you're familiar wouldn't gain any benefits from your classes." .... oh well.