Post/Author/DateTime	Post
okpokalypse 10-02-07, 09:05 PM	Ok, I've got to ask. Is this Kosher? I've been debating this to the negative, but quite honestly, the only reason I'm against it is because it smacks of cheese. Can someone give me a solid game mechanics reason this isn't possible... Here's the situation: The Feat Sudden Maximize is taken (All Pre-Req's Met). The Feat Divine MetaMagic: Sudden Maximize is taken. Sudden Maximize itself is a 0 CL Boost to Maximize a spell, 1/day. Fine. Divine MetaMagic states: "As a free action you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know..." And the expenditure is 1 Turn Attempt + 1 Turn Attempt per Spell Level increase. The Argument: Using Sudden Maximize itself is 1/day, because it states it as so. Pretty simple. But using Divine MetaMagic is not. Because it's specifically applying a metamagic feat to divine spells through it, one can use Divine MetaMagic repeatedly to apply a Sudden Maximize effect at the cost of 1 Turn Attempt. I'n not crazy about it because of the horrific imbalance, but it's a pretty savvy way of looking at it if you ask me.
Jaxgaret 10-02-07, 11:39 PM	DMM fuels the metamagic feat that you are using with divine energy converted from your Turn/Rebuke attempts, it does not directly apply the metamagic itself to the spell. You're still using the original metamagic feat to alter the spell. So you would only be able to use this combination of feats the 1/day you can use Sudden MM.
dman11235 10-02-07, 11:43 PM	I do not see anything in the rules that says you cannot do this. But it does smack a bit of cheese. Okay, it's worse than Hellfire Warlock. I can see arguments working from you can only use the sudden feats once per day and that's it, and maybe the fact that they aren't true metamagic feats, but both of those aren't very solid reasons. And I don't like it when people twist words. @Jaxgaret: That's my primary reason. It can be interpreted differently though.
Salla 10-02-07, 11:48 PM	Once a day means once a day. It doesn't work.
okpokalypse 10-03-07, 01:41 AM	DMM fuels the metamagic feat that you are using with divine energy converted from your Turn/Rebuke attempts, it does not directly apply the metamagic itself to the spell. You're still using the original metamagic feat to alter the spell. So you would only be able to use this combination of feats the 1/day you can use Sudden MM. I know it seems that way intuitively, but where does it actually state that? That's what I'm looking for - an official statement essentially saying that use of DMM is still a use of the feat which DMM powers - just with a different power source. The Spell Text on Divine MetaMagic can easily be interpretted to the contrary. I also checked the Sage, and nothing along the lines of this has been addressed - which surprises me. Is this really the first time someone's try to come up with this?
okpokalypse 10-03-07, 01:44 AM	Once a day means once a day. It doesn't work. That's not entirely helpful. Not for nothing, but a lot of abilities are defined as once per round or once per turn, etc.. Like Cleave being only one per combat round, and great cleave complete undoing it. Or the limit of one AOO, and multiple feats and powers undoing that - sometimes indirectly. The point is, where does it actually say that a feat's ability being enacted through another feat constitutes a use of the original feat? I, to this point, have been unable to find such.
Salla 10-03-07, 02:08 AM	That's not entirely helpful. Not for nothing, but a lot of abilities are defined as once per round or once per turn, etc.. Like Cleave being only one per combat round, and great cleave complete undoing it. Or the limit of one AOO, and multiple feats and powers undoing that - sometimes indirectly. The point is, where does it actually say that a feat's ability being enacted through another feat constitutes a use of the original feat? I, to this point, have been unable to find such. Your examples all specifically say that they override the previous limitation in the 'Normal' section. DMM does not remotely hint that it undoes any other limitations or conditions on the 'attached' metamagic feat.
deathbane 10-03-07, 08:01 AM	I do not see anything in the rules that says you cannot do this. But it does smack a bit of cheese. Okay, it's worse than Hellfire Warlock. I can see arguments working from you can only use the sudden feats once per day and that's it, and maybe the fact that they aren't true metamagic feats, but both of those aren't very solid reasons. And I don't like it when people twist words. @Jaxgaret: That's my primary reason. It can be interpreted differently though. What is wrong with the hellfire warlock?
okpokalypse 10-03-07, 11:04 AM	Your examples all specifically say that they override the previous limitation in the 'Normal' section. DMM does not remotely hint that it undoes any other limitations or conditions on the 'attached' metamagic feat. No, I'm saying the previous limitation never kicks off, because you're not actually using the "Sudden" feat, you're using Divine MetaMagic to create the effect of a Sudden Feat. It's similar to in the Tome of Battle. There's a power called Rapid Counter. It allows one to take an attack of opportunity against someone who provokes an attack of opportunity. Seems pretty silly, huh? Well, what it does per the rules is allow one to take an attack of opportunity that doesn't count as an attack of opportunity, and supercedes the normal attack of opportunity. But wait, it's an attack of opportunity, right? No, it's technically not. Because you're not actually using the attack of opportunity provoked. If you're following this, it's the same logic using DMM vs. using the actual feat. Using DMM Suddens are not actually using the Sudden feat itself. Otherwise, if it was, Divine Meta Magic would be it's own feat and just be able to apply to all other metamagic feats one's character has. But because one has to take it with a specific feat attuned to it, it's quite plainly not just a "power source" for another feat, but a fully fledged feat unto itself that creates the given metamagic via Divine Power. Sudden Maximize itself is 1/day, but Divine MetaMagic is not, and that's the feat being used. PS. I'm not trying to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. I innately agree with you - but I'm presenting the argument that I'm currently facing.
Puca 10-03-07, 11:07 AM	Divine Metamagic lets you a clearly defined, specific thing: use turn attempts instead of the level adjustments for a metamagic feat. Thats it. The level adjustment for Sudden Anything is 0. Can you apply DMM to this? Sure. A waste, but allowed. Does DMM, anywhere in any way suggest that it overrides a per-day limitation? No. It doesnt. It doesnt do anything more than cut the level-adjustments. Is there an official statement of this? No. There probably never will be because the answer is obvious. This isnt just "no." Its like "hammer-gun no."
Puca 10-03-07, 11:12 AM	No, I'm saying the previous limitation never kicks off, because you're not actually using the "Sudden" feat, you're using Divine MetaMagic to create the effect of a Sudden Feat.Yes, you are. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. Yes, you are using the feat. How many times can you use that feat? 1/day.
infideli 10-03-07, 12:16 PM	Divine Metamagic works on any METAMAGIC feat. Sudden Maximize is a SUDDEN metamagic feat. Sudden feats are listed as a separate category of feats just like item creation and reserve feats. No, DMM does not work on Sudden anything. G
Eerongal 10-03-07, 12:23 PM	yeah, DMM lets you replace spell level adjustments with turning attempts. That's it. It doesnt let you overcome any other limitations or costs of the feat. Since sudden (anything) doesnt raise the spell level, you can use it, spend the 1 turning attempt, and use one of your uses per day. Why would you want to do this? You wouldnt. you did nothing but lose a turning attempt.
Jaxgaret 10-03-07, 12:34 PM	Divine Metamagic works on any METAMAGIC feat. Sudden Maximize is a SUDDEN metamagic feat. Sudden feats are listed as a separate category of feats just like item creation and reserve feats. No, DMM does not work on Sudden anything. Sudden Metamagic feats are not listed as a separate category of feats - they're just as much a metamagic feat as any other metamagic feat. Just look in the Complete Arcane; they're in the same section under "metamagic feats" as all the other metamagics. However, this does not change what Puca and I have stated; Puca posted the exact text that I would have posted. According to DMM, you are still "using" the original metamagic feat, it is simply the metamagic's level adjusment that is being fueled by divine energy (Turn/Rebuke attempts) rather than spell energy (higher spell level).
hunterc311 10-03-07, 12:42 PM	Sudden Maximize is a SUDDEN metamagic feat. Sudden feats are listed as a separate category of feats just like item creation and reserve feats. Sudden Metamagic feats are listed as Metamagic feats and are under the same category, not sure where you get your info. Look in Comp Arc pg 75. They are also classified as [METAMAGIC] in their individual descriptions. But the original point made still stands. DMM does not override anything in a feat's description and limitations. It simply uses turn attempts in the place of spell level increases. Anything further is just arbitrarily trying to add things to the feat that it doesn't currently do.
infideli 10-03-07, 12:45 PM	Sudden Metamagic feats are not listed as a separate category of feats - they're just as much a metamagic feat as any other metamagic feat. Just look in the Complete Arcane; they're in the same section under "metamagic feats" as all the other metamagics. Either I'm crazy -because I looked this up when my own wizard/cleric was using sudden maximize- or you are not looking very closely at Complete Arcane. I do not have the book in front of me, but I doubt that you do... because... because you're wrong. :P Sudden Metamagic *IS* listed differently than metamagic... Somewhere! I'll check my books at 7PM eastern. G
StevenO 10-03-07, 01:42 PM	I'd say you could use DMM to power a Sudden MM. Of course you only can use a Sudden MM once per day so all you'd really be doing is blowing a Turn Attempt (and a feat) for something you could already do.
Puca 10-03-07, 01:56 PM	While I find it hard to believe that Sudden Metamagic feats arent considered metamagic, isnt this really just determining whether DMM can be used with Sudden Maximize at all or whether it is just a monumentally foolish waste of time? Honestly, Id let a player take DMM (Sudden Maximize) even if it is a different category of feat. Any player trying to pull some crap like this, suggesting to me that it lets them use it multiple times a day at one turning attempt, saddling them with an utterly useless feat is the least Id do.
deathbane 10-03-07, 02:19 PM	I think sudden maximize should at least be usable 3 times per day even if they have to make it harder to get. I can't see myself wasting a feat slot to maximize a spell only once. It would be better to just make scrolls of the spells during downtime with the regular maximize feat.
Puca 10-03-07, 02:29 PM	Yeah, but you can Maximize your top tier of spells with Sudden. You cant do that even with a scroll. (And, you can use Sudden Max to make Maximized scrolls as though you had the regular feat.) There are a lot of DMs who find even once per day too often. I find it just right.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-03-07, 02:35 PM	Siad something stupid, never mind
Jaxgaret 10-03-07, 07:41 PM	There are a lot of DMs who find even once per day too often. I find it just right. Depends entirely on how many encounters/day the DM runs, I'd guess. Either I'm crazy -because I looked this up when my own wizard/cleric was using sudden maximize- or you are not looking very closely at Complete Arcane. I do not have the book in front of me, but I doubt that you do... because... because you're wrong. :P Sudden Metamagic *IS* listed differently than metamagic... Somewhere! I'll check my books at 7PM eastern. G You're wrong. I was looking right at the book (CArc) when I posted it. Sudden Metamagic feats are listed as Metamagic feats and are under the same category, not sure where you get your info. Look in Comp Arc pg 75. They are also classified as [METAMAGIC] in their individual descriptions. But the original point made still stands. DMM does not override anything in a feat's description and limitations. It simply uses turn attempts in the place of spell level increases. Anything further is just arbitrarily trying to add things to the feat that it doesn't currently do. Sudden Metamagic feats are not listed as a separate category of feats - they're just as much a metamagic feat as any other metamagic feat. Just look in the Complete Arcane; they're in the same section under "metamagic feats" as all the other metamagics. However, this does not change what Puca and I have stated; Puca posted the exact text that I would have posted. According to DMM, you are still "using" the original metamagic feat, it is simply the metamagic's level adjusment that is being fueled by divine energy (Turn/Rebuke attempts) rather than spell energy (higher spell level). Heh, your post was almost exactly the same as my post, just worded differently. Kinda neat :)
Someone 10-04-07, 12:26 AM	(And, you can use Sudden Max to make Maximized scrolls as though you had the regular feat.)I'm not so sure about that, I had figured you needed Maximize Spell (not the sudden version) as a prereq to make a scroll of maximized whatever. Though you could take regular Maximize as a prereq to Sudden Maximize...
Bauglir 10-04-07, 01:22 AM	I'm gonna agree with most people here. DMM says that you're still using the feat, and the feat says you get to use it 1/day. Since the whole thing was based on an attempt at a legalistic approach (I'm using a feat to power a different feat, and look at all these other feats that let you do that, and even though they specifically mention the fact, you can extend it to this), then I'd say such a strict interpretation of the wording is perfectly valid. That's all there is to it, though it would be pretty nifty cheese were that not the case.
Radijs 10-04-07, 04:31 AM	Any player trying to use that cheese will find himself facing the wrath of the corners of my DMG. That amount of Cheese would get banned even from Corsica.
Puca 10-04-07, 10:53 AM	I'm not so sure about that, I had figured you needed Maximize Spell (not the sudden version) as a prereq to make a scroll of maximized whatever. Though you could take regular Maximize as a prereq to Sudden Maximize... It is in the FAQ. You cannot use it to lower the cost in some way or any cheesy crap like that. A scroll of Maximixed Fireball costs the same whether it was created with the Sudden or the regular version of Maximize Spell.
jaelis 10-04-07, 12:05 PM	Using Sudden Maximize itself is 1/day, because it states it as so. Pretty simple. But using Divine MetaMagic is not. Because it's specifically applying a metamagic feat to divine spells through it, one can use Divine MetaMagic repeatedly to apply a Sudden Maximize effect at the cost of 1 Turn Attempt. The logical flaw here is the assumption that when you are using DMM instead of Sudden Maximize. But as has been pointed out, really you use DMM along with Sudden Maximize. You are still using Sudden Maximize, so you are still subject to it's restrictions.
Someone 10-04-07, 01:13 PM	It is in the FAQ. You cannot use it to lower the cost in some way or any cheesy crap like that. A scroll of Maximixed Fireball costs the same whether it was created with the Sudden or the regular version of Maximize Spell.No, no, what I meant was that you couldn't use Sudden Max in place of Maximize Spell when it came to magic item creation prereqs. The second bit was a mention of how you could simply take regular Maximize as one of the "other metamagic feat(s)" Sudden Max has as prereqs. Sorry for the confusion.
Ghabriel 10-04-07, 01:39 PM	I agree with Puca ''Thats it. The level adjustment for Sudden Anything is 0. Can you apply DMM to this? Sure. A waste, but allowed. '' The feat DMM low the metamagic cost of a metamagic feat, it does'nt add any number of time per day (like Quicken spelllike abilities) of any metamagic effect. So, you can apply the feat, it's just useless.
Puca 10-04-07, 01:43 PM	No, no, what I meant was that you couldn't use Sudden Max in place of Maximize Spell when it came to magic item creation prereqs. The second bit was a mention of how you could simply take regular Maximize as one of the "other metamagic feat(s)" Sudden Max has as prereqs. Sorry for the confusion. Now Im confused. Sorry. Im just going to quote that section of the FAQ since it says exactly what I mean better than I could. I didnt mean any more or less than what I have gotten from there. Can sudden metamagic feats (from Complete Arcane) be used to scribe scrolls or craft wands that include the metamagic effect? If so, how would you calculate the cost (since sudden metamagic feats don’t alter the level of the spell)? You can use a sudden metamagic feat in item creation; the cost to create the item would be just as if you were using the regular metamagic feat. For instance, using your Sudden Widen feat to create a scroll of widened fireball would cost as much as a scroll of a 6th-level spell (which is what a widened fireball is). The act of creating the scroll or wand would expend your daily use of Sudden Widen (since the act of creation triggers the spell, making it unavailable for casting).
infideli 10-04-07, 10:54 PM	Sudden Metamagic *IS* listed differently than metamagic... Somewhere! I found what I was looking for! Sudden Metamagic feats are mentioned separately on CA-71, but it is about how they can be used with spell-like abilities and invocations. I agree that SUDDEN metamagic are not in a separate subcategory. I also never disagreed that a sudden feat lets you use if 1/day and Divine Metamagic merely allows the use of the feat without burning higher spell slots. Sudden already does that, so using DMM is pointless on those feats. Dead horse, but I said I'd be back! G
Someone 10-05-07, 12:07 AM	Now Im confused. Sorry. Im just going to quote that section of the FAQ since it says exactly what I mean better than I could. I didnt mean any more or less than what I have gotten from there.My mistake, I wasn't aware of the FAQ answer on the topic, hence my thoughts were to the contrary.
Empirate 10-08-07, 11:13 AM	Another question on item creation: The FAQ clarifies that you can indeed use Sudden Maximize to create a scroll of Maximized Fireball, at the cost of a scroll containing a 6th level spell. My question, then: Can a 5th level wizard with Sudden Maximize create this scroll? If he can, does he create it at a base price of 25gp x 6 (spell level) x 5 (his caster level), or does he create it at a base price of 25gp x 6 x 11 (minimum caster level required to cast a 6th level spell)? Going on: If the latter, does the spell still do 30 points of damage (5d6 Maximized), or 60 (10d6, the maximum for an 11th level caster, Maximized)? I'd assume the 5th level wizard with the Sudden Maximize Feat can create a scroll of Maximized Fireball. He can do so at a base price of 25gp x 6 x 11 = 1,650gp. The scroll in question will, when cast, produce a Fireball that does 30 points of damage. Does this sound right to you guys? EDIT: Another question popped into my head just now: Can you use a Sudden Metamagic Feat to create a wand? Also, regarding the original DMM question: Since the PC burned a Feat on DMM: Sudden Maximize, I'd probably allow him to use Sudden Maximize as usual (i.e., 1/day), and use DMM: Sudden Maximize another time /day. This second time, he'd have to use up a turning/rebuking attempt. After this second time, no more sudden maximization for that day is possible. This way, the player could feel gratified that he found a way to effectively take the Sudden Maximize Feat twice. Big deal. This is, of course, not backed up by RAW! It's only the way I'd handle it in my campaign.
Puca 10-09-07, 12:51 PM	My question, then: Can a 5th level wizard with Sudden Maximize create this scroll? If he can, does he create it at a base price of 25gp x 6 (spell level) x 5 (his caster level), or does he create it at a base price of 25gp x 6 x 11 (minimum caster level required to cast a 6th level spell)?Can I use Empower Spell to make a wand of magic missile with a caster level of 1 because it’s still “really” a 1st-level spell, for a cost of 3´1´750 (effective spell level 3, caster level 1, wand multiplier), or does it need to be level 5, because that’s the lowest level at which I can cast any 3rdlevel spell? It’s the latter. A magic missile spell that takes advantage of the Empower Spell feat is “really” just a 1st-level spell, but you have to be at least 5th level to cast it (if you’re a wizard) because any spell that uses the Empower Spell feat requires a spell slot two levels higher than normal. You have to use the higher, metamagiced level to calculate the wand’s price, and you have to increase the wand’s caster level accordingly. The example wand’s market price is 11,250 gp (3´5´750). For that price, you get a wand that produces 3 magic missiles (a 5thlevel caster creates 3 missiles with a magic missile spell), each dealing 1d4+1´1.5 points of damage.Based on this, Id say you have to have a sufficient caster-level (11) to manage to scribe a scroll of maximized Fireball. This makes it clear you have to be that level with a normal metamagic feat, and the previous FAQ I quoted said the Suddens are priced and act “the same.” (Also, if you missed it, that was the 3.0 FAQ, not the 3.5. While technically it is out of date, the 3.5 doesnt address this issue specifically, and I therefore think this is still relevant.) EDIT: Another question popped into my head just now: Can you use a Sudden Metamagic Feat to create a wand?No, you use "slot-level" here too Im afraid. The limitation is there to create a ceiling on the power-level of a wand. When you make a wand of a 5+ level spell, a real fifth-level or de facto fifth-level,you are breaking that ceiling. Also, regarding the original DMM question: Since the PC burned a Feat on DMM: Sudden Maximize, I'd probably allow him to use Sudden Maximize as usual (i.e., 1/day), and use DMM: Sudden Maximize another time /day. This second time, he'd have to use up a turning/rebuking attempt. After this second time, no more sudden maximization for that day is possible. This way, the player could feel gratified that he found a way to effectively take the Sudden Maximize Feat twice. Big deal. This is, of course, not backed up by RAW! It's only the way I'd handle it in my campaign.I wouldnt. The power of the sudden feats is only balanced (IMHO) by the limited (1/day) usage. I dont know, the more I think about it, the more "balanced" your idea seems. I mean, Suddens are limited as they are precisely because they are so powerful. But limiting it to once per day doesnt result in anything a caster with DMM and regular Maximize couldnt do twice (probably) already. The value of the DMM feat is reduced sufficiently as well; no matter how many Extra Turning feats or Nightsticks you buy, it will still only be once per day. Could work.
infideli 10-09-07, 01:09 PM	My question, then: Can a 5th level wizard with Sudden Maximize create this scroll? If he can, does he create it at a base price of 25gp x 6 (spell level) x 5 (his caster level), or does he create it at a base price of 25gp x 6 x 11 (minimum caster level required to cast a 6th level spell)? I'd say NO because sudden metamagic effects the CASTING of the spell. Creating a scroll EXPENDS a prepared spell but you do not cast it. SRD (Crafting Scrolls): "The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)" G
Treantmonklvl20 10-09-07, 01:37 PM	The mechanics of Divine Metamagic (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Divine_Metamagic,all) are to "take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know" The mechanics of Sudden Maximize (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sudden_Maximize,all) includes "Once per day you can..." In order for Divine Metamagic to override the once per day limitation - it would need to specify. The Great Cleave (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Great_Cleave,all) example actually proves the point. "As Cleave, except that you have no limit to the number of times you can use it per round." It VERY specifically states the once per round limitation is overridden. This is required - or the limitation stands. And although this thread got derailed for a bit - Sudden Metamagic feats ARE considered metamagic feats. (Although they are a specific kind of metamagic) and qualify as metamagic feats for prerequisites (where you must have a certain number of metamagic feats) and the like.