Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 06-28-07, 07:58 AM	Hi Guys, i'm thinking about taking the 'craven' feat from 'Champios of Ruin (FR) for my Rogue. (It gives you extra SA damage equal to your character level and imposes a -2 save versus fear-effects) My whisper Gnome is Neutral and leaning towards the God Mask (intrigue portfolio etc, FR). The rest of the group is mainly good. Can I take this feat? thanks !
Dalthbar 06-28-07, 08:11 AM	I'm not sure I understand the question. The pre-reqs are SA and not being immune to fear. The fear immunity is something that you'd get from such sources as a racial ability. It doesn't mean that in the sense that you're 'badass', but that you have an actual immunity to fear effects.
Nicholas the Paladin 06-28-07, 08:29 AM	I'm not sure I understand the question. . it's from a FR-book that is about badguys and evil organisations in FR, ....so i was wondering
Morwen 06-28-07, 08:33 AM	it's from a FR-book that is about badguys and evil organisations in FR, ....so i was wondering Even though the book it is written in is about evil in the Realms, the feat in question does not have "evil" as a prerequisite. Just like the Greater Manyshot feat from the Expanded Psionics Handbook doesn't require you to be a psionic character :)
Nicholas the Paladin 06-28-07, 08:35 AM	Even though the book it is written in is about evil in the Realms, the feat in question does not have "evil" as a prerequisite. Just like the Greater Manyshot feat from the Expanded Psionics Handbook doesn't require you to be a psionic character :) True. But I recall that at the beginning at the featlist it said something like, 'when you are a really nasty bugger, you can take the following feats'. It's mainly fluff-text, ..... but still.
Dalthbar 06-28-07, 08:39 AM	Yeah, it's _only_ flavor text. Unless the actual feat description and pre-reqs state that you need to be evil, devious, etc., then it's just to build up the feats for atmosphere. IIRC, the Assassin PrC requires you to kill someone for no reason other than to become an assassin. That's a listed pre-req. You have to be "that evil and determined". This feat has none of that sort of language other than the SA and no fear immunities.
sages 06-28-07, 08:43 AM	I also played a whisper gnome rogue\swordsage\assasin with Mask as my diety. I did not take the craven feat as i think it is too strong and out of consideration to my DM. Just think about doing 30d6 sneak damage at level 20.
Dalthbar 06-28-07, 08:46 AM	I also played a whisper gnome rogue\swordsage\assasin with Mask as my diety. I did not take the craven feat as i think it is too strong and out of consideration to my DM. Just think about doing 30d6 sneak damage at level 20. How would you get 30d6? Craven (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craven,) from Champions of Ruin only gives you +1 per character level, not any extra d6's. So a lvl 20 rogue with this feat would get 10d6+20 on a successful SA.
sages 06-28-07, 08:50 AM	Yes, I forgot about that. :hides:
Nicholas the Paladin 06-28-07, 08:54 AM	I also played a whisper gnome rogue\swordsage\assasin with Mask as my diety. I did not take the craven feat as i think it is too strong and out of consideration to my DM. Just think about doing 30d6 sneak damage at level 20. ?? 30d6 ?? Please explain. 1d6 is 3,5 damage on avarage. Craven gives 1 damage per level. So in other words, on every 3,5th level I get another extra 1d6 SA-damage with this feat. That's indeed good. I expect with my build (Rogue8/SwordSage4/Swashbuck3/something) to reach 6d6 at most at 15t level (see below). With the crave -feat that'll be 6d6+15 damage , being on average equal to 6d6+4d6=10d6 damage. Our campaings usually don't last after 15th level.
Nicholas the Paladin 06-28-07, 08:56 AM	Yes, I forgot about that. :hides: Do you still consider it to be too strong? (I'm sensitive about that too)
Crash01234567890 06-28-07, 09:10 AM	I havn't read the feat, but from what I've gathered here it seems overpowering in relation to other feats at least. For instance, a fighter needs to have 4 levels in his class to gain a feat that gives a fixed +2 damage to his rolls with one weapon. At 12th level in Fighter he can get this to a +4. At 12th level this feat gives +12? (I'm really asking, I don't have Champions of Ruin) That's three times the fighters bonus, and the limitations (must be sneak attack) doesn't really seem any greater to me than the (only one weapon) limitation on the fighter weapon. Now I know that the fighter feats are underpowered, but I still feel this one is a bit over the top, especially in comparison. If it were +1 for every two levels I think it would still be almost too good, as it takes the fighter three feets to get a +6 at twelfth level and you'd be getting the same in one feat with a measly -2 on fear checks "tradeoff".
Dalthbar 06-28-07, 09:14 AM	A fighter would get that with every single attack, no matter what. A rogue would need to be able to SA in order to get that benefit. So anything immune to crits yields Craven useless, while the fighter still gets his bonus. Given how many things can nullify a SA, I'd say +1 per char level is totally fine. Besides, compare this feat to something like Power Attacking with a 2H weapon and we'll see the fighter doing TONS more damage at all levels.
spyderfreek 06-28-07, 10:08 AM	Ok, here's another question about Craven. We use heroes feast everyday. Would the immunity confirred from that spell negate craven?
runestar 06-28-07, 10:09 AM	The best thing about craven is that the bonus damage is based off your character lv, which in game terms, means total number of HD. This makes it the perfect feat to take in tandem with 1 lv of rogue. Take for example a rogue2/fighter18. Each attack deals 1d6+20 points of sneak attack damage. Or a great wyrm red dragon. Take 2 lvs of rogue (the soonest you can take another feat). Now, each of your natural attacks does an additional 1d6+42 points of sneak attack damage. This feat is really in need of serious revising, IMO.
lint trap 06-28-07, 10:11 AM	I'd say yes. One of the prerequisites is that you are immune to fear. If you no longer meet the prereqs, you can no longer benefit from the feat.
sages 06-28-07, 04:58 PM	I would say that it is too strong. A rogue with swordsage\shadow hand and desert wind school can have almost every attack count as a sneak attack. Distracting ember- desert wind Cloak of deception- shadow hand
Dheran 06-28-07, 08:32 PM	I would say that it is too strong. A rogue with swordsage\shadow hand and desert wind school can have almost every attack count as a sneak attack. Distracting ember- desert wind Cloak of deception- shadow hand Only in your dreams, sages. You obviously haven't used Craven, but I have -- a lot. Your wishful thinking doesn't take into account Improved Uncanny Dodge, See Invisibility, Fortification, and evil DMs who throw only sneak-immune enemies at you. In actual play Craven is a smaller boost to Rogues than the stuff in Tome of Battle is to fighter types. Sneak attack is a great ability on paper but it's frequently ineffective after low levels. Craven makes sneak attack better when it works but does nothing against the main obstacle: sneak attack doesn't work nearly often enough. Everyone knows the two main ways to sneak attack: flank, or be invisible -- exactly what your two maneuvers facilitate. So starting at levels when you'd see some significant damage from your sneak attack you encounter enemies who just aren't vulnerable in those ways. My Rogue has gotten more benefit from Telling Blow and a +5 keen rapier, and from the weapon augment crystals in Magic Item Compendium, than from Craven. Their advantage is they increase the likelihood of sneak attack working despite standard nasty DM tactics. (Also note that "standard nasty DM tactics" include using your vulnerabilities against you, so expect to be fleeing some fights in a sissy panic after taking Craven.) The biggest benefit of Craven is that it helps multiclass characters increase their sneak attack damage. Still, 1 point/level for non-Rogue levels is only 36% as much sneak attack damage as the average 2.75 points/level that Rogues gain. Rather than a 1-level dip in Rogue and full progression in some other class, I'd much rather go the other way: Rogue with a 1-level dip in Shadowdancer for Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. HiPS increases mundane Hide opportunities, against which See Invisibility provides no benefit. The net result: greater probability of sneak attack working versus enemies with the usual safeguards. Craven is akin to buying elemental enhancements for your weapon: a nice enough idea for most classes yet a waste of gp for Rogues, compared to numerical enhancements that increase the chances of hitting in the first place. (If you don't hit, you don't do sneak or any other damage. Duh!) Ways to increase your likelihood of dealing sneak attack damage are real meat for Rogues. Ways to increase the amount of damage done: just gravy.
runestar 06-28-07, 11:27 PM	Rogues can now sneak attack undead as well (I think there is some class sub feature), if that is what you are talking about.:)
sages 06-29-07, 04:17 AM	1 level desert wind- Distracting ember(swift action) - It creates a small fire elemental wich threatens your enemy(Flank, 4 attacks dead monster) . 2 level shadow hand- Cloak of deception(swift action)- Greater Invisibility untill the end of your turn.
Dheran 06-29-07, 07:25 AM	I'm not sure why I'm bothering since you didn't read my last posting, but maybe we'll have better results in smaller pieces. 1 level desert wind- Distracting ember(swift action) - It creates a small fire elemental wich threatens your enemy(Flank, 4 attacks dead monster). No sneak attack if the enemy has Improved Uncanny Dodge. 2 level shadow hand- Cloak of deception(swift action)- Greater Invisibility untill the end of your turn. No sneak attack if the enemy has See Invisibility or Blind-Fight. As I already mentioned once, everyone knows the two main ways of gaining sneak attack: flanking and invisibility. So those are what enemies have counters for. In addition, Heavy Fortification will render the target immune to sneak attacks -- you can't sneak attack anything immune to critical hits.
cato 06-29-07, 08:38 AM	savvy rogue ftw!
Nicholas the Paladin 06-29-07, 10:06 AM	savvy rogue ftw! what about it?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-29-07, 12:08 PM	True. But I recall that at the beginning at the featlist it said something like, 'when you are a really nasty bugger, you can take the following feats'. It's mainly fluff-text, ..... but still. Unless the text at the beginning is describing a feat descriptor, it is only flavor text, and not a prerequisite of any kind.