Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malvoi 01-02-08, 04:35 PM	I am playing a holy monk/paladin using the Ascetic Knight feat and other choice tidbits and then I thought, I want to play a different type of monk: a Ground-&-Pound, Grapple monk. Think UFC + Mortal Kombat Champ. :hat I cannot qualify for Bear Warrior so I figured taking levels of Monk and Fighter would give me the next best chance at accomplishing this but I can't go back to monk once I leave it. So...I am asking the community what they think might be a balanced/fair rendition of an Ascetic Feat for a Fighter/Monk. Ascetic Warrior Option #1) Can multiclass between Fighter and Monk, both classes stack for unarmed damage (and for determing speed and unarmored AC bonus) as a monk of equal level. Option #2) Can multiclass between Fighter and Monk, both classes stack for unarmed damage a monk of equal level but only half the fighter levels stack for determing speed and unarmored AC bonus. IMPORTANT: I am only doing this for flavor and because fighter appears to be the best option for increasing my BAB and obviously getting some feats but I am *not* doing this to dip Monk 1 or 2 and go straight fighter even though this would be feasible as written above. Thanks for your input, it is appreciated.
mplindustries 01-02-08, 07:11 PM	Barbarian 1 with the Bear Totem option from Complete Champion lets you trade fast movement for Improved Grab. Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun lets you pretend you are large for opposed rolls, so thats a pretty good choice. I am actually running a game where a player wanted to do this and he's doing Barbarian/Monk. We created the feat "Raging Brawler" which lets monk and barbarian levels stack for rage and unarmed damage. (As a side note, I ignore alignment altogether for the most part, nevermind alignment restrictions, although there is precedence for a feat overcoming this if it is an issue for you, as there is a bard/paladin combo feat in Complete Adventurer) If this doesn't work for you (I figure why not since you are already making up a feat), I'd just do straight barbarian and use the variant floating around where you get two-weapon fighting and improved unarmed strike. I saw it on crystalkeep. Lastly, if you want to keep fighter for some reason (I guess weapon spec?) I would suggest the following: Prereq: Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Strike (Magic), Proficiency in all martial weapons "Can multiclass between Fighter and Monk, and both classes stack to determine unarmed damage and your effective fighter level for feats requiring fighter levels." Alternatively you could change the Ki Strike thing, it just seemed to me they set a minimum of fifth level for almost all the combo feats so I tried to require it. I guess you could do the same requiring Flurry of Blows and Weapon Specialization. I wouldn't have the feat stack speed and ac bonus though, as that is a little beyond the scope of most of the other combo feats.
Kouk 01-03-08, 04:46 AM	I believe the strongest "grappler" Prestige Class is the Reaping Mauler also in Complete Warrior, which is also fairly easy to enter. The Bear Warrior just turns you into a bear really. If you are a bear you are probably better at grappling now, but not really a martial-arts sort of feel for me. At least one of the designers stated that the limitation on Monks never being allowed to multiclass and return to being Monks was something they put in due to popular request from playtesters, mostly for "flavor". I don't think your game would explode if the DM allowed you to multiclass freely, or at least Prestige-multiclass freely for classes that somewhat resemble Monks. Also, in the Oriental Adventures book (where there are a lot of nice Monk things if you get the chance to look) Monks are allowed to multiclass freely by default. In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, depending on the character's religion a Monk can multiclass freely as certain other classes. The "rule" has been broken before, so just something to think about.
Malvoi 01-03-08, 06:19 AM	Bear Warrior vs. Reaping Mauler...I only mentioned the BW over RM because while both give you a fighter's BAB progression, the bear forms grant you improved grapple (brown and polar) and the increased str makes your grapple check easier. Given that in a fantasy game we will probably fight more than just atypical humanoids, I figured it wasn't a stretch to just become a bear from time to time. :monk: Thanks again for your solid advice gents! :tiphat:
rjsilverthorn 01-03-08, 06:41 AM	I know that Eberron has the Monastic Training feat, which lets you multiclass with a chosen class freely as a monk, but the levels don't stack for class features.
jaelis 01-03-08, 09:09 AM	I believe the strongest "grappler" Prestige Class is the Reaping Mauler also in Complete Warrior, which is also fairly easy to enter. I would have said that Reaping Mauler was actually pretty awful. Per the OP, if you want my opinion you should ignore multiclassing restrictions. The stacking in your feats might be a little strong, I'm not sure. Another alternative is to play a swordsage, if you have TOB.
strenoth 01-03-08, 09:17 AM	I would have said that Reaping Mauler was actually pretty awful. Per the OP, if you want my opinion you should ignore multiclassing restrictions. The stacking in your feats might be a little strong, I'm not sure. Another alternative is to play a swordsage, if you have TOB. actually, The REAL version of the reaping mauler: http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_reaping_mauler.htm Is kinda kick ass. :)
UAMDB 01-03-08, 09:27 AM	Barbarian 1 with the Bear Totem option from Complete Champion lets you trade fast movement for Improved Grab. Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun lets you pretend you are large for opposed rolls, so thats a pretty good choice. I am actually running a game where a player wanted to do this and he's doing Barbarian/Monk. We created the feat "Raging Brawler" which lets monk and barbarian levels stack for rage and unarmed damage. (As a side note, I ignore alignment altogether for the most part, nevermind alignment restrictions, although there is precedence for a feat overcoming this if it is an issue for you, as there is a bard/paladin combo feat in Complete Adventurer) If this doesn't work for you (I figure why not since you are already making up a feat), I'd just do straight barbarian and use the variant floating around where you get two-weapon fighting and improved unarmed strike. I saw it on crystalkeep. Lastly, if you want to keep fighter for some reason (I guess weapon spec?) I would suggest the following: Prereq: Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Strike (Magic), Proficiency in all martial weapons "Can multiclass between Fighter and Monk, and both classes stack to determine unarmed damage and your effective fighter level for feats requiring fighter levels." Alternatively you could change the Ki Strike thing, it just seemed to me they set a minimum of fifth level for almost all the combo feats so I tried to require it. I guess you could do the same requiring Flurry of Blows and Weapon Specialization. I wouldn't have the feat stack speed and ac bonus though, as that is a little beyond the scope of most of the other combo feats. Got to ask this one. How do you multi-class Monk and Barb? The Monk must be lawful, and the Barb must be any non-lawful. These to conflict and thereefor there should be no feats that combine the two together.
Silvercrys 01-03-08, 09:47 AM	Right after that he/she explains him/herself: They created a feat similar to the Paladin/Bard feat that allows it, besides ignoring alignment and alignment restrictions.
jaelis 01-03-08, 09:57 AM	actually, The REAL version of the reaping mauler... Is kinda kick ass. :) Still has the problem that you technically lose all the class benefits when enlarged, but otherwise you're right, that is a lot better.
Malvoi 01-03-08, 11:45 PM	That homebrewed PrC rewrite was awesome compared to the existing one (no offense WotC). I will bring it up to my DM and if accepted I may forego taking fighter levels altogether. I just want to be able to play a solid martial artist who "monks" it very well. I truly hope to see the barbarian and monk revised and revamped for the best in 4.0. I am sure the other core-important classes are receiving all the needed attention and TLC they need, but the monk and barbarian need their fair share of lovin' too. Thanks again all, it's appreciated. :tiphat:
silvergamgee 01-04-08, 12:00 AM	You can be a monk and a barbarian. A monk doesn't lose powers if they cease to be lawful, they just can't advance anymore as a monk. As for the grappler...WotC doesn't understand grappling very well. Even a weakling, novice (but trained) grappler can turn a much larger and stronger untrained fighter into so many broken limbs if they go to ground. However, Wizards never developed an effective mechanism for grappling, so they kind of stuffed it into the existing system haphazardly. In a real fight grappling works very well, even against people with swords and armor (Ju-Jitsu was first developed by Samurai as a method to kill an armored man with his bare hands). In D&D, it's use is limited. Reaping Mauler can be useful, but only when fighting humanoids. I love playing grapplers, they're great for tying up those pesky spellcasters...but each and every one of mine has died horribly because the grapple system is flawed.
strenoth 01-04-08, 12:20 AM	That homebrewed PrC rewrite was awesome compared to the existing one (no offense WotC). I will bring it up to my DM and if accepted I may forego taking fighter levels altogether. I just want to be able to play a solid martial artist who "monks" it very well. I truly hope to see the barbarian and monk revised and revamped for the best in 4.0. I am sure the other core-important classes are receiving all the needed attention and TLC they need, but the monk and barbarian need their fair share of lovin' too. Thanks again all, it's appreciated. :tiphat: Um, actually, the WotC version IS the rewrite. the version i linked you to is the version the author originally submitted to WotC, along with a 10-level version of invisible blade. The pre-req screwups in IB were because of a poor editing job when reducing it to 5 levels and taking out all the melee abilities. and here's invisible blade as long as the topic has been brought up: http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm
Malvoi 01-04-08, 06:41 PM	Um, actually, the WotC version IS the rewrite. the version i linked you to is the version the author originally submitted to WotC, along with a 10-level version of invisible blade. The pre-req screwups in IB were because of a poor editing job when reducing it to 5 levels and taking out all the melee abilities. Wow, if that's the case, then how did they mess it up? The 5 level version doesn't even require Imp. Grp. as a pre-req which anyone thinking of becoming a "grappler" would logically have already taken it by 5th level or so (or get it free as a Monk 1). I don't know, I just look at its current incarnation and it just doesn't have the utility and flavor I was imagining (given I have not taken a crack at devising my own but that is in part b/c my playgroups tend to avoid anything "we" make up). Regardless, thanks for the input once again. Cheers!