Domain Devotion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Domain Devotion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TranquilDarkness
09-05-07, 12:25 PM Hi,

I was wondering.
With the Devotion feats one can permanently spend turn attempts to gain daily uses of the feat. (seen house rulings that allow one to simply 'use' a turn attempt to use the feat additional times - don't know how powerful this pans out)
But can you only spend these turn attempts upon selecting the feat, or can you sacrifice at any time more turn uses to gain feat uses?

Say I select Healing Devotion and spend 1 turn attempt to have a total of 2 uses per day (permanently lowering my turn attempts from 4 to 3).
Can I say at any given moment that I spend a turn attempt to use the Healing Devotion? (thereby having 3 Healing uses against 2 turn undead uses from then on)
Or can I only spend new turn undead attempts gained through increases of charisma or the extra turning feat?
Or possibly by again spending a feat on Healing Devotion can I again pay turn undeads for healing devotion uses?
tarkin
09-05-07, 12:46 PM I don't know about just doing it whenever.

However, I would definitely allow someone to use the 're-education" rules to do this.

That is, give up the feat, then retake the same feat.
Nephlite
09-05-07, 01:02 PM Hi,

I was wondering.
With the Devotion feats one can permanently spend turn attempts to gain daily uses of the feat. (seen house rulings that allow one to simply 'use' a turn attempt to use the feat additional times - don't know how powerful this pans out)
But can you only spend these turn attempts upon selecting the feat, or can you sacrifice at any time more turn uses to gain feat uses?

Say I select Healing Devotion and spend 1 turn attempt to have a total of 2 uses per day (permanently lowering my turn attempts from 4 to 3).
Can I say at any given moment that I spend a turn attempt to use the Healing Devotion? (thereby having 3 Healing uses against 2 turn undead uses from then on)
Or can I only spend new turn undead attempts gained through increases of charisma or the extra turning feat?
Or possibly by again spending a feat on Healing Devotion can I again pay turn undeads for healing devotion uses?

I never understood the permanent part: why do they require permanent uses?

I'd allow my players to spend them when they are able (have enough turn attempts).

Because one does have problems if they gave up Charisma bonus uses, but Charisma drops: the feat alreadyt asorbed the uses: are they still there?

They wouldn't be in my method, but itis a grey area by the rules:
The feat already got those so you should count them.

BNack to question:

With the Devotion feats one can permanently spend turn attempts to gain daily uses of the feat. (seen house rulings that allow one to simply 'use' a turn attempt to use the feat additional times - don't know how powerful this pans out)
But can you only spend these turn attempts upon selecting the feat, or can you sacrifice at any time more turn uses to gain feat uses?

You can spend them at anytime, but remember permanently used up forever.

Example Charisma 14 Cleric 1 (Turn attempts 3 +2 cha=5)
Protection Devotion gives +1 extra use for 2 uses: you decide to add 2 uses.

Now you have 3 uses/day of Protection (the one that gives insight bonus to AC for an area to you + allies).

You have only 1 turn use/day.

Tomorrow: You still have 1/turn a day and 3 uses of Protection. They are permanently gone from turning.

At level 3 you gain extra turning:
4 more uses.

Total Turn/day =5.
You can at your choice burn some more turnings permanently to Protection.

But 3/day protection is good enough in my opinion.
Eater_Of_Souls
09-05-07, 01:17 PM Actually it depends on the feat and at least those in complite champion don't require permanent sacrifice of turning attempts, they do require you to give up your daily uses of turn ud when you wish to use the ability more then once a day.

However you may sacrifise your one of your domains and it's powers in exchange for a 3 domain feats of your choosing which do not need to be thematically fitting to each other.
Normally domain feats need to have a common theme and belong to a domains of your deity.

But no feat requires a permanent sacrifice of a daily turning attempts unless they specifically say so, it's allways yours to decide if you wish to expend a turning attempt or not.

Edit: noted the part of voluntary sacrificing a turn UD attempt to gain more then one use per day for domain feat ability.
for example air devotion allows you to summon an air elemental once per day by sacrificing you turn UD attempts you can increase you daily uses of this ability.
Note that some feats can be gained multiple times so sacrificing your turn attempt is still optional.

You allways have a minimum on 3 + cha modifier of turn attempts so dropping cha affects only on your remaining turn attempts.

As for protection example you can also just spend 3 turn attempts for a one more use per day, so with 6 attempts you couls use this ability 3 / day but you would have no turn attempts to turn any UD for the day ...
Talon Stormwarden
09-05-07, 02:04 PM But no feat requires a permanent sacrifice of a daily turning attempts unless they specifically say so

If you look on page 52 of Complete Champion, under Domain Feats, 3rd paragraph, last sentence, you'll see that Domain Feats do take permanent turn use sacrifice for additional uses per day.

While I like the idea of Domain Feats, their implementation leaves a bit to be desired from a cost/benefit and consistency perspective. Different domain feats take anywhere from 1 to 3 turn uses for additional per day uses, so clearly the designers felt that the actual abilities varied in power, by as much as a factor of 3, yet each base Domain Feat only gives one use per day.

If the Law and Luck abilities are truly each worth 3 turn attempts and evil and earth are truly each worth 1 turn attempt then the fact that the base feat gives only 1 evil or earth ability use makes them vastly underpowered.

Take the interaction of Extra Turning with any Domain Feat that costs 1 turn per daily use as further example of the fouled up valuation of these abilities. You could spend 2 feats to get 2 uses of the Evil Domain Feat ability...or you could spend 1 feat on Evil Domain devotion and 1 on extra turning and get 5 total uses per day (turning in all 4 turn attempts from Extra Turning for extra domain devotion uses).
Eater_Of_Souls
09-05-07, 03:04 PM If you look on page 52 of Complete Champion, under Domain Feats, 3rd paragraph, last sentence, you'll see that Domain Feats do take permanent turn use sacrifice for additional uses per day.

It says "If you have the ability to turn or rebuke unread, you can gain additional daily uses of a domain feat's benefit by permanently sacrificing daily uses of that ability."

See the parts if, can and additional that means in no shape or form what so ever are you required to sacrifice anything permanently to gain a divine feat as you allready have 1 use of the feat per day when you choose the feat.
By sacrificing a turn attempt you gain +1 attempt per day for that feat.

Expending daily uses for ability and sacrificing for using the ability are two complitely different things in rules.

As it is you don't even need to have an ability to rebuke UD at all for a domain feat, all you need is to be a devoted follower of a deity or an ideal and your DM's approval to take the feat.

edit:
Also if it isn't clear enough see table 2-1 on page 56 for prequisitites which are complitely blank for obvious reasons ...
Talon Stormwarden
09-05-07, 07:16 PM It says "If you have the ability to turn or rebuke unread, you can gain additional daily uses of a domain feat's benefit by permanently sacrificing daily uses of that ability."

See the parts if, can and additional that means in no shape or form what so ever are you required to sacrifice anything permanently to gain a divine feat as you allready have 1 use of the feat per day when you choose the feat.
By sacrificing a turn attempt you gain +1 attempt per day for that feat.

Expending daily uses for ability and sacrificing for using the ability are two complitely different things in rules.

As it is you don't even need to have an ability to rebuke UD at all for a domain feat, all you need is to be a devoted follower of a deity or an ideal and your DM's approval to take the feat.

edit:
Also if it isn't clear enough see table 2-1 on page 56 for prequisitites which are complitely blank for obvious reasons ...

And my post says additional uses per day. I never said you had to sacrifice turn attempts to take the feat in the first place. Chill. Now that that's out of the way...

I was pointing out the fact that the general text regarding domain devotion feats says you have to permanently sacrifice turn attempts if you want to get additional uses per day. Of course you can also take the feats multiple times to get additional uses per day, that's not what we're talking about.

Now, I know what you're going to say, the feat descriptions say that you can get daily uses of the abilities by 'expending turn attempts'. And you have a point. The rules are unclear. I feel the intent is for the expenditure to be permanent. Otherwise to what is the sentence I mentioned above about permanently sacrificing turn attempts refer?

Anyway, I won't argue about it. My understanding from reading the posts here and other places was that the general consensus was that the general text on page 52 clarified the text under each 'Special' section of the feat listings to mean permanent expenditures. Of course some are going to argue the definitions of expend and sacrifice. That's a question for customer service or eratta to answer for certain I suppose.
Talon Stormwarden
09-05-07, 07:30 PM However you may sacrifise your one of your domains and it's powers in exchange for a 3 domain feats of your choosing which do not need to be thematically fitting to each other.
Normally domain feats need to have a common theme and belong to a domains of your deity.

I was just rereading your post and noticed this. I'm not sure, but are you saying that a cleric can give up access to one of his domains to get 3 domain feats?

As for being thematically linked, by the rules in Complete Champion a cleric still must choose domain feats from those domains allowed by his deity. Nothing that I can see changes that.

Anywho, like I said, I like the domain devotion feats, but the power levels vary too widely for my tastes. I think some of them should start out with multiple uses per day and the turn attempt to additional use ratio needs to be looked at for some of them. Either some reduced or others increased.
Nephlite
09-05-07, 09:39 PM I was just rereading your post and noticed this. I'm not sure, but are you saying that a cleric can give up access to one of his domains to get 3 domain feats?

Just anyone can get 2 devotion feats, but the Cleric can sacrifice a domain of his for a extra domain devotion feat.
So Clerics may have 3 feats of devotion.

As for being thematically linked, by the rules in Complete Champion a cleric still must choose domain feats from those domains allowed by his deity. Nothing that I can see changes that.

Yes, Clerics are limited by diety.

Anywho, like I said, I like the domain devotion feats, but the power levels vary too widely for my tastes. I think some of them should start out with multiple uses per day and the turn attempt to additional use ratio needs to be looked at for some of them. Either some reduced or others increased.

I like Air (personal) or Protection (party boost): they awesome. Knowledge one can be good as well.
Talon Stormwarden
09-05-07, 10:24 PM Just anyone can get 2 devotion feats, but the Cleric can sacrifice a domain of his for a extra domain devotion feat.
So Clerics may have 3 feats of devotion.

Indeed, I just was wondering if that's what Eater_of_Souls meant. It's not what he says. ;)
TranquilDarkness
09-06-07, 12:49 PM Thanx for the input.
More clarification to come from errata and stuff, I hope..

But, if you use the permanent sacrifice of TU, would you allow the cleric to sacrifice a turn attempt at any moment, or only when the feat is selected (or some other factor increases your #of turn attempts)?

So, if cleric takes a devotion feat on day 1 without expending turn attempts for additional uses of this feat - and this cleric finds himself in desperate need of a second use of the devotion feat on, say, day 4.. would you allow him to on the spot, out of the blue, lose turn undead attempts to permanently (from then on) gain a feat use?
Eater_Of_Souls
09-06-07, 02:50 PM Well lets see first of all about daily uses.

Lets take the protection as an example.
You can gain 1 more daily use by giving up your 3 turning attempts for that day or you may sacrifice one attempt per day.
Now that I read the text again I think the first wording on general discription is wrong, so domain feats should follow the rules of divine feats in regards to using turn UD ability.

As for giving up domains it seems to say that it's up to 3 extra devotion feats that can be gained this way.
Note that in example you have to give up good domain in exchange for corresponding domain feat.
So in my opinion no permanent sacrifice for an extra daily use just the usual swapping of turn UD attempts for using the feat more then once per day ie. the same system as with most divine feats.
This limits the daily extra uses to 2 or 3 (with extra turning) unless you really pimp your cleric for "a heavy duty turning".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TranquilDarkness 09-05-07, 12:25 PM	Hi, I was wondering. With the Devotion feats one can permanently spend turn attempts to gain daily uses of the feat. (seen house rulings that allow one to simply 'use' a turn attempt to use the feat additional times - don't know how powerful this pans out) But can you only spend these turn attempts upon selecting the feat, or can you sacrifice at any time more turn uses to gain feat uses? Say I select Healing Devotion and spend 1 turn attempt to have a total of 2 uses per day (permanently lowering my turn attempts from 4 to 3). Can I say at any given moment that I spend a turn attempt to use the Healing Devotion? (thereby having 3 Healing uses against 2 turn undead uses from then on) Or can I only spend new turn undead attempts gained through increases of charisma or the extra turning feat? Or possibly by again spending a feat on Healing Devotion can I again pay turn undeads for healing devotion uses?
tarkin 09-05-07, 12:46 PM	I don't know about just doing it whenever. However, I would definitely allow someone to use the 're-education" rules to do this. That is, give up the feat, then retake the same feat.
Nephlite 09-05-07, 01:02 PM	Hi, I was wondering. With the Devotion feats one can permanently spend turn attempts to gain daily uses of the feat. (seen house rulings that allow one to simply 'use' a turn attempt to use the feat additional times - don't know how powerful this pans out) But can you only spend these turn attempts upon selecting the feat, or can you sacrifice at any time more turn uses to gain feat uses? Say I select Healing Devotion and spend 1 turn attempt to have a total of 2 uses per day (permanently lowering my turn attempts from 4 to 3). Can I say at any given moment that I spend a turn attempt to use the Healing Devotion? (thereby having 3 Healing uses against 2 turn undead uses from then on) Or can I only spend new turn undead attempts gained through increases of charisma or the extra turning feat? Or possibly by again spending a feat on Healing Devotion can I again pay turn undeads for healing devotion uses? I never understood the permanent part: why do they require permanent uses? I'd allow my players to spend them when they are able (have enough turn attempts). Because one does have problems if they gave up Charisma bonus uses, but Charisma drops: the feat alreadyt asorbed the uses: are they still there? They wouldn't be in my method, but itis a grey area by the rules: The feat already got those so you should count them. BNack to question: With the Devotion feats one can permanently spend turn attempts to gain daily uses of the feat. (seen house rulings that allow one to simply 'use' a turn attempt to use the feat additional times - don't know how powerful this pans out) But can you only spend these turn attempts upon selecting the feat, or can you sacrifice at any time more turn uses to gain feat uses? You can spend them at anytime, but remember permanently used up forever. Example Charisma 14 Cleric 1 (Turn attempts 3 +2 cha=5) Protection Devotion gives +1 extra use for 2 uses: you decide to add 2 uses. Now you have 3 uses/day of Protection (the one that gives insight bonus to AC for an area to you + allies). You have only 1 turn use/day. Tomorrow: You still have 1/turn a day and 3 uses of Protection. They are permanently gone from turning. At level 3 you gain extra turning: 4 more uses. Total Turn/day =5. You can at your choice burn some more turnings permanently to Protection. But 3/day protection is good enough in my opinion.
Eater_Of_Souls 09-05-07, 01:17 PM	Actually it depends on the feat and at least those in complite champion don't require permanent sacrifice of turning attempts, they do require you to give up your daily uses of turn ud when you wish to use the ability more then once a day. However you may sacrifise your one of your domains and it's powers in exchange for a 3 domain feats of your choosing which do not need to be thematically fitting to each other. Normally domain feats need to have a common theme and belong to a domains of your deity. But no feat requires a permanent sacrifice of a daily turning attempts unless they specifically say so, it's allways yours to decide if you wish to expend a turning attempt or not. Edit: noted the part of voluntary sacrificing a turn UD attempt to gain more then one use per day for domain feat ability. for example air devotion allows you to summon an air elemental once per day by sacrificing you turn UD attempts you can increase you daily uses of this ability. Note that some feats can be gained multiple times so sacrificing your turn attempt is still optional. You allways have a minimum on 3 + cha modifier of turn attempts so dropping cha affects only on your remaining turn attempts. As for protection example you can also just spend 3 turn attempts for a one more use per day, so with 6 attempts you couls use this ability 3 / day but you would have no turn attempts to turn any UD for the day ...
Talon Stormwarden 09-05-07, 02:04 PM	But no feat requires a permanent sacrifice of a daily turning attempts unless they specifically say so If you look on page 52 of Complete Champion, under Domain Feats, 3rd paragraph, last sentence, you'll see that Domain Feats do take permanent turn use sacrifice for additional uses per day. While I like the idea of Domain Feats, their implementation leaves a bit to be desired from a cost/benefit and consistency perspective. Different domain feats take anywhere from 1 to 3 turn uses for additional per day uses, so clearly the designers felt that the actual abilities varied in power, by as much as a factor of 3, yet each base Domain Feat only gives one use per day. If the Law and Luck abilities are truly each worth 3 turn attempts and evil and earth are truly each worth 1 turn attempt then the fact that the base feat gives only 1 evil or earth ability use makes them vastly underpowered. Take the interaction of Extra Turning with any Domain Feat that costs 1 turn per daily use as further example of the fouled up valuation of these abilities. You could spend 2 feats to get 2 uses of the Evil Domain Feat ability...or you could spend 1 feat on Evil Domain devotion and 1 on extra turning and get 5 total uses per day (turning in all 4 turn attempts from Extra Turning for extra domain devotion uses).
Eater_Of_Souls 09-05-07, 03:04 PM	If you look on page 52 of Complete Champion, under Domain Feats, 3rd paragraph, last sentence, you'll see that Domain Feats do take permanent turn use sacrifice for additional uses per day. It says "If you have the ability to turn or rebuke unread, you can gain additional daily uses of a domain feat's benefit by permanently sacrificing daily uses of that ability." See the parts if, can and additional that means in no shape or form what so ever are you required to sacrifice anything permanently to gain a divine feat as you allready have 1 use of the feat per day when you choose the feat. By sacrificing a turn attempt you gain +1 attempt per day for that feat. Expending daily uses for ability and sacrificing for using the ability are two complitely different things in rules. As it is you don't even need to have an ability to rebuke UD at all for a domain feat, all you need is to be a devoted follower of a deity or an ideal and your DM's approval to take the feat. edit: Also if it isn't clear enough see table 2-1 on page 56 for prequisitites which are complitely blank for obvious reasons ...
Talon Stormwarden 09-05-07, 07:16 PM	It says "If you have the ability to turn or rebuke unread, you can gain additional daily uses of a domain feat's benefit by permanently sacrificing daily uses of that ability." See the parts if, can and additional that means in no shape or form what so ever are you required to sacrifice anything permanently to gain a divine feat as you allready have 1 use of the feat per day when you choose the feat. By sacrificing a turn attempt you gain +1 attempt per day for that feat. Expending daily uses for ability and sacrificing for using the ability are two complitely different things in rules. As it is you don't even need to have an ability to rebuke UD at all for a domain feat, all you need is to be a devoted follower of a deity or an ideal and your DM's approval to take the feat. edit: Also if it isn't clear enough see table 2-1 on page 56 for prequisitites which are complitely blank for obvious reasons ... And my post says additional uses per day. I never said you had to sacrifice turn attempts to take the feat in the first place. Chill. Now that that's out of the way... I was pointing out the fact that the general text regarding domain devotion feats says you have to permanently sacrifice turn attempts if you want to get additional uses per day. Of course you can also take the feats multiple times to get additional uses per day, that's not what we're talking about. Now, I know what you're going to say, the feat descriptions say that you can get daily uses of the abilities by 'expending turn attempts'. And you have a point. The rules are unclear. I feel the intent is for the expenditure to be permanent. Otherwise to what is the sentence I mentioned above about permanently sacrificing turn attempts refer? Anyway, I won't argue about it. My understanding from reading the posts here and other places was that the general consensus was that the general text on page 52 clarified the text under each 'Special' section of the feat listings to mean permanent expenditures. Of course some are going to argue the definitions of expend and sacrifice. That's a question for customer service or eratta to answer for certain I suppose.
Talon Stormwarden 09-05-07, 07:30 PM	However you may sacrifise your one of your domains and it's powers in exchange for a 3 domain feats of your choosing which do not need to be thematically fitting to each other. Normally domain feats need to have a common theme and belong to a domains of your deity. I was just rereading your post and noticed this. I'm not sure, but are you saying that a cleric can give up access to one of his domains to get 3 domain feats? As for being thematically linked, by the rules in Complete Champion a cleric still must choose domain feats from those domains allowed by his deity. Nothing that I can see changes that. Anywho, like I said, I like the domain devotion feats, but the power levels vary too widely for my tastes. I think some of them should start out with multiple uses per day and the turn attempt to additional use ratio needs to be looked at for some of them. Either some reduced or others increased.
Nephlite 09-05-07, 09:39 PM	I was just rereading your post and noticed this. I'm not sure, but are you saying that a cleric can give up access to one of his domains to get 3 domain feats? Just anyone can get 2 devotion feats, but the Cleric can sacrifice a domain of his for a extra domain devotion feat. So Clerics may have 3 feats of devotion. As for being thematically linked, by the rules in Complete Champion a cleric still must choose domain feats from those domains allowed by his deity. Nothing that I can see changes that. Yes, Clerics are limited by diety. Anywho, like I said, I like the domain devotion feats, but the power levels vary too widely for my tastes. I think some of them should start out with multiple uses per day and the turn attempt to additional use ratio needs to be looked at for some of them. Either some reduced or others increased. I like Air (personal) or Protection (party boost): they awesome. Knowledge one can be good as well.
Talon Stormwarden 09-05-07, 10:24 PM	Just anyone can get 2 devotion feats, but the Cleric can sacrifice a domain of his for a extra domain devotion feat. So Clerics may have 3 feats of devotion. Indeed, I just was wondering if that's what Eater_of_Souls meant. It's not what he says. ;)
TranquilDarkness 09-06-07, 12:49 PM	Thanx for the input. More clarification to come from errata and stuff, I hope.. But, if you use the permanent sacrifice of TU, would you allow the cleric to sacrifice a turn attempt at any moment, or only when the feat is selected (or some other factor increases your #of turn attempts)? So, if cleric takes a devotion feat on day 1 without expending turn attempts for additional uses of this feat - and this cleric finds himself in desperate need of a second use of the devotion feat on, say, day 4.. would you allow him to on the spot, out of the blue, lose turn undead attempts to permanently (from then on) gain a feat use?
Eater_Of_Souls 09-06-07, 02:50 PM	Well lets see first of all about daily uses. Lets take the protection as an example. You can gain 1 more daily use by giving up your 3 turning attempts for that day or you may sacrifice one attempt per day. Now that I read the text again I think the first wording on general discription is wrong, so domain feats should follow the rules of divine feats in regards to using turn UD ability. As for giving up domains it seems to say that it's up to 3 extra devotion feats that can be gained this way. Note that in example you have to give up good domain in exchange for corresponding domain feat. So in my opinion no permanent sacrifice for an extra daily use just the usual swapping of turn UD attempts for using the feat more then once per day ie. the same system as with most divine feats. This limits the daily extra uses to 2 or 3 (with extra turning) unless you really pimp your cleric for "a heavy duty turning".