Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kenicolo 03-02-07, 12:21 AM	If i use two shield and asume i gain the ac for that secondary shield, would a focused two weapon fighter using 2 shield be viable on the long run???
TheDarkLord 03-02-07, 12:28 AM	If i use two shield and asume i gain the ac for that secondary shield, would a focused two weapon fighter using 2 shield be viable on the long run??? Unless houseruled I don't believe you would gain the AC benefit from your second shield. And I believe he'd be about as viable as any TWF fighter could be (Which isn't too viable at higher levels). You'd need high dex for that whole tree which means heavy armor would most likely be out of the question. Broken... No. You'd just have about a monks AC or around it.
Dethro 03-02-07, 12:31 AM	You don't gain the AC bonus for the second shield. There are only two ways that I know that this can be done, both using non-core books. #1: Hammer & Helm - A Guidebook to Dwarves (Green Ronin Publishing). There is a prestige class that allows you to wield two shields and gain the bonus from both. Dwarf only. #2: Quintessential Fighter #2 (Mongoose Publishing). There is an armor enchantment that turns the bonus you get from the armor into a deflection bonus (so that it will stack with things like bracers of armor, but not rings of protection and the like). It's not unbalanced to allow that to apply to shields as well. Apart from that I think you're out of luck. I will tell you though, I've played a twf-shield-using dwarf using the first option and his AC was massive, and although it took a lot of feats, the TWF path was viable. If you're just using core WotC material it's better to pick up the tempest prestige class, fight with a weapon and a shield, grab the TWF feats, and the feats that allow you to retain your shield to AC when sheild bashing.
kenicolo 03-02-07, 12:31 AM	i found those feats and they seem a good choice. Improve shield bash Shield Specialisation Agile shiled fighter Shieldmate Two Wpn Fighting Two Wpn Defense improved shieldmate Wpn focus shield Improver two wpn defense Wpn specialisation shield Greater wpn focus shield Greater wpn specialisation Combat expertise Improve combat expertise
kenicolo 03-02-07, 12:39 AM	I think it would be logical to give the ac of a secondary shield or maybe half of itbecause it use ne of your hand and you still need a feat: shield bash. Also a fighter could get almot all these feats by lvl 15 and then take the tempest prestige class and you got LOTS of AC and also some feats allow you to gove ac to allies. How about using 1 heavy spiked steel shield (1D6 +2 ac) and 1 tower shield (no damage BUT +4 ac) This cumulated with your armor and maybe weapon expertise and thw weapon defense and . . . makes it great. i think
Dethro 03-02-07, 01:36 AM	It would be logical... Then again, it would be logical to assume that you could keep piling on loads of metal because then you would be completely unhittable! However, d&d doesn't entirely work on the logical or standard. Items that give the same type of bonus do not stack. The only ones that do are unnamed bonuses, and dodge bonuses. The shields grant a Shield bonus to AC, therefore they don't stack. Barring your DM ruling that it is allowed, your character would be better off with a decent weapon in one hand and a shield in the other.
paladin2019 03-02-07, 10:40 AM	I had a character in my campaign do this. He was a cleric of Pelor and didn't want to "hurt" things. So he used two shields, with TWF and Improved Shield Bash. He died at 5th or 6th level so the concept was never fully played out.
kenicolo 03-02-07, 10:59 AM	I tried it once because i wanted a character wo wish to protect other at the peril of his life so he was always interposing in the front line and once he crossed a whole battlefield full of Fire genasi to pul down a lever to save his riends frome the lava pit. This was a geat cinematic scene and at lvl3, few (even a barbarian) would have been able to resist so much attack
Vintar 03-02-07, 02:04 PM	As an SCA fighter I can only say - 2 shields would not give more protection than 1. This is because you put the shield squarely between you and your opponent - another shield would just get in the way and slow you down. In fact, I feel that 2 shields would be worse than sword and shield, as the sword is faster and deflect your opponents' attacks. However, two light spiked shields would be viable rules-wise, though their AC bonuses wouldn't stack. This, I could actually see as vaugely viable in reality. The advantage of this rules-wise would be consolidation of weapon-focus/weapon spec. As well, each could be enchanted differently. IE - one shield could be +4 enchantment and the other could be +1 light fortification / arrow deflection, for 32,000 gp as opposed to 49,000 for all that on one.
Krusk 03-02-07, 03:33 PM	I would think it might work, especially if you trained in doing this. It could be very vaible combo if you want to go for the high ac low damage option with your character. You just put your shield between the two of you as a bigger wall, maybe?
Lazzar 03-03-07, 08:15 PM	If i use two shield and asume i gain the ac for that secondary shield, would a focused two weapon fighter using 2 shield be viable on the long run??? You shuold gain it, but you would basically be a blocker for archers or something. Why not jsut get better armor? I guess as a concept it could work, but I think you'd need help etting those shields on and off. theres no way you could use your hands.
HomebrewedMonster 03-03-07, 10:33 PM	Why do people want to play dual wielding shield fighters? Is there some fiction that I do not know about that has created this craze? Do you realize how hard it would be to do anything with two 15 pound pieces of metal strapped to each of your arms? Please stop asking this, use the damn ax-buckler from Races of Stone and use something else in your main hand.
TheDarkLord 03-03-07, 10:48 PM	Why do people want to play dual wielding shield fighters? Is there some fiction that I do not know about that has created this craze? Do you realize how hard it would be to do anything with two 15 pound pieces of metal strapped to each of your arms? Please stop asking this, use the damn ax-buckler from Races of Stone and use something else in your main hand. My god man, lighten up, remove the stick per se. This is a freakin Game, and in this game, Ideas that are not plausible in the Real world, such as TWF, are used. This is no difference in doing this and say, weilding an Orc Double axe or a spiked chain. Both of those are completely useless weapons in actual armored combat. What is it coming too when people can rip another person's flavorful ideas. I mean he isn't going to be doing much damage, but he would have a High AC, it isn't like it's broken. Perhaps we should call you the Flavor Police to keep ideas like this from springing up eh?
HomebrewedMonster 03-03-07, 11:01 PM	My god man, lighten up, remove the stick per se. This is a freakin Game, and in this game, Ideas that are not plausible in the Real world, such as TWF, are used. This is no difference in doing this and say, weilding an Orc Double axe or a spiked chain. Both of those are completely useless weapons in actual armored combat. What is it coming too when people can rip another person's flavorful ideas. I mean he isn't going to be doing much damage, but he would have a High AC, it isn't like it's broken. Perhaps we should call you the Flavor Police to keep ideas like this from springing up eh? Ooo...Flavor police, that sounds like fun. Can I give tickets out for stupid ideas?
TheDarkLord 03-03-07, 11:11 PM	It's your show :D.
shadowsofwhite 03-03-07, 11:38 PM	My god man, lighten up, remove the stick per se. This is a freakin Game, and in this game, Ideas that are not plausible in the Real world, such as TWF, are used. This is no difference in doing this and say, weilding an Orc Double axe or a spiked chain. Both of those are completely useless weapons in actual armored combat. What is it coming too when people can rip another person's flavorful ideas. I mean he isn't going to be doing much damage, but he would have a High AC, it isn't like it's broken. Perhaps we should call you the Flavor Police to keep ideas like this from springing up eh? I would like to clarify that no man could adequately fight with two, three foot diameter boards strapped to his arms, much less defend himself. Shields are cumbersome, though extremely useful when used right. I would like to see a man actually fight with two shields (that would be a sad day). Additionally, Spiked chains are viable weapons and are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS in ACTUAL combat. Orcish double axes on the otherhand are would be too dangerous to the wielder for practical use (the dwarven urgosh would be much more practical).
TheDarkLord 03-04-07, 12:05 AM	I would like to clarify that no man could adequately fight with two, three foot diameter boards strapped to his arms, much less defend himself. Shields are cumbersome, though extremely useful when used right. I would like to see a man actually fight with two shields (that would be a sad day). In real life I would agree with you, but this is a game. Big difference. Additionally, Spiked chains are viable weapons and are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS in ACTUAL combat. Yeah, I'm actually trying to figure out how a spiked chain could be dangerous to a man strapped in 1/2" thick steel plate carrying a shield and a mace. I guess you could hope to trip him assuming he has a relatively short base, but that's about it. But since I'm not an Expert Weapons master like you I couldn't realistically comment on exactly how lethal. I'm just going off of percieved common sense.
shadowsofwhite 03-04-07, 12:18 AM	A spiked chain could be easily used against a man in full plate, though at that point you would have to rely on the chain's ability to dig into and grab armor, allowing you to trip them more easily. If you wrap it around his head, you could pull and simply break his neck. You could easily trip him (try getting up in full plate, no fun), leaving him open to any other attack you may have at hand. Spiked chains are more used as lethal whips more than anything else (their weight and spikes making them hurt more and grab more easily).
TheDarkLord 03-04-07, 12:31 AM	I'm just not seeing it. I've seen video of some man in full-plate doing cartwheels, so I imagine getting up would be fairly simple. Also that spiked chain would have to be precisely placed to dig into any kind of full plate. To me, just from what I gather, If I had Full plate, a steel sheild, and a mace, I would be licking my lips to get at the guy with the spiked chain. The sheild alone would be good enough to throw the spiked chain off. And remember any kind of whip or chain weapon is a momentum weapon, if it loses it's momentum, the weilder is pretty much screwed.
kenicolo 03-04-07, 12:48 AM	Tanks everyone for those comments... i played the character, with and house rule of my dm to accept that i stack the ac of my second shield. I have 2 mode, TWF and Shield&Tower shield TWF: I use 1 light spiked steel shield (1D4) and 1 heavy spiked steel shield (1D6) Total ac bonus of +3. so i have a light wpn in my offhand. And yes i cant deal lot of damage because i need to keep my dex hight to get the feats so my STR is a bit lower. Shield&Tower: I use 1 heavy spiked steel shield and 1 tower shield Still verry low damage cause i cant attack with the tower BUt i get +6 AC and cover anytime.
Xavon 03-04-07, 01:02 AM	I have always been a fan of the idea of a two-shield fighter. I have a feat for my players that allows a warrior to gain the AC bonus from two shields, but not any overlapping magical effects (i.e. a fighter using a +3 buckler and a +2 heavy shield of Minor Fortification would get +4 to AC from the buckler, and +2 to AC and fortification from the heavy shield, but not the +2 from the heavy shield's magic). I also created a number of additional weaponized shields, and a two-shield prestige class. Note that none of that applies to the tower shield, nor do I believe it should.
HomebrewedMonster 03-04-07, 01:29 AM	My opinion on the dual shield fighting craze. 1. If you are going to do the only way you can get away with it is two bucklers. Now you can get cool bladed bucklers like the dwarven ax-buckler, just take the exotic weapon profiency and you can decide what it actually looks like. 2. You will have to take a homebrewed feat (added in the last post) that always buckler shield bonuses stack. Something like this. Ax-buckler backslahser [Style] Prereqs: shield proficency, improved shield proficency, exotic weapon proficency [dwarven ax-buckler], two-weapon fighting Benefits: You can gain a two shield bonuses from dwarven ax-bucklers. For example if you wielded a +1 buckler and a masterwork buckler you would gain a +3 shield bonus. Normal: You can only have one shield bonus to your armor class. Four feats, so a non-human fighter can do this by 3rd level, not bad. I think it would take time for a character to learn how to properly fight in this kinda style anywho. 3. One of the reason why I know a lot of people want to do this is they forget that your weapon enchantment and armor enchantment are seperate. You can not pay 1150g to get +1 AC, attack, and damage. You have to pay 3450g (plus weapon cost (remember masterwork weapon 300 + masterwork shield 150)) to get +1 AC, attack, and damage to a single shield. I would make sure it is enforced and recongnized because a player can quickly over-power his fellow players if one character gets his uber AC through the roof while getting half price +5 vorpal shields.
paladin2019 03-04-07, 04:12 AM	On the subject of spiked chain vs plate armor, the threat isn't simple damage. It's the "specialty damage" that D&D doesn't really cover; dislocated joints, ruptured tendons, etc. This is a quality all flail type weapons share, hence the reason they are disallowed in SCA combat; they cannot be made safe. D&D's abstract combat system doesn't take these into account. You get hp damage and some special effects, but no specific wounds. The spiked chain, like flails, gives up some flavor for better integration in the rules.
kenicolo 03-04-07, 10:51 PM	I thaught of a special ability or maybe special shield that allow to ben joined together when using two. Maybe it would increase in AC when using total defense or effectively becoming a tower shield when joined. These would need to ben 2 heavy shield +2 ac each (total of 4) and this ac gros by 1 when joined, this would also remove the ability to shieldBash .
inthesto 03-04-07, 11:36 PM	I'm of the mindset that a pair of shields shouldn't stack, but who would want them to if you can do 2d6 in each hand?
Trevhippy 03-05-07, 12:11 PM	I'm just going off of percieved common sense. Well, you're obviously cheating then.
Silverthumb128 03-05-07, 12:16 PM	I'm of the mindset that a pair of shields shouldn't stack, but who would want them to if you can do 2d6 in each hand? If they stacked, then I would with the Improved Shield Bash. Double the shield AC, double the 2d6's, heck yes.
TheDarkLord 03-05-07, 04:03 PM	Well, you're obviously cheating then. :confused: Did I miss something?
Dragonteuthis 03-05-07, 04:14 PM	:confused: Did I miss something? A) Trevhippy is being sarcastic. If so, props, it made me chuckle. B) Trevhippy thinks you implied that you don't let Spiked Chains damage full-plate wearers in D&D. And even then, a house rule isn't quite "cheating." That's why I'm leaning towards A.
Tevin Kevlak 03-05-07, 04:26 PM	Just for the record, I noticed that someone above said that Two-Weapon Defense would be a good feat to pick up for this character but Two-Weapon Defense adds a shield bonus to AC so, much like using two shields at once, the AC bonuses would not stack.
TheDarkLord 03-05-07, 05:11 PM	A) Trevhippy is being sarcastic. If so, props, it made me chuckle. I guess sometimes using Common sense in DnD could be perceived as cheating... B) Trevhippy thinks you implied that you don't let Spiked Chains damage full-plate wearers in D&D. And even then, a house rule isn't quite "cheating." That's why I'm leaning towards A. Heh, yeah I'm hoping he meant A as well, A weapon is a weapon is a weapon when it comes to DnD.
kenicolo 03-05-07, 09:16 PM	Just for the record, I noticed that someone above said that Two-Weapon Defense would be a good feat to pick up for this character but Two-Weapon Defense adds a shield bonus to AC so, much like using two shields at once, the AC bonuses would not stack. Would that mean that if i use a shield and a sword and thake Two weapon defense...i dont really get more ac ... this sucks... The feats Mean that you have an expertise at using a two weapon to better defend yourself. (AND yes spiked shield is a weapon cause its on the wpn list) . So the guy who use 2 dagger get the same protection thant the guys who use a big round metal plate...... NAAA. Garbage with Shield AC don't stack!!
kenicolo 03-05-07, 09:19 PM	I dream of a High level Sorceror flying and using two shield ofr his protection sint he is specialized in range atack. thes image haunt mymmind and whould be awsome
HomebrewedMonster 03-05-07, 09:57 PM	Want to know whats amazing about DnD you can design your own spells. Why not make a spell that creates two shields made of force, one acts as the shield spell and the other does something else. Either a current spell effect or make up something new.
Trevhippy 03-05-07, 11:41 PM	A) Trevhippy is being sarcastic. Correct. Nerf common sense.
Bhaal006 03-06-07, 12:32 PM	I had a guy in my group that was a n illithid that had three tower shields, one on his back and dual wielding the other two, he use some sort of "Tentacle Flail" as his weapon(a flail attached to his tentacles), he'd just open up a space between the shield and hit someone with the flail(1d4+str), it was freakin hilarious.
kenicolo 03-06-07, 07:34 PM	:D :D For the idea of a spell lets say the first is the spell shield and the second can slam enemy or bull rush them. Verry combative spellcaster
Elgor 01-25-08, 03:49 PM	I created a feat to allow my char to wield two shields Twin Shield [Style] Prereq's: Shield Prof, Weapon Focus (Shield Bash), TWF, Imp Shield Bash Benifit: The shield bonus to AC stacks from any two of the following shields: Bucklers, Light, or Heavy shields. But not from Tower Shields. I made a 1/2 elf 1/2 ogre (large creature) and set out these feats for him. 1) 2 wpn ftr 1 Bns) imp shld bash 2 Bns) wpn fcs (shld bash) 3) twin shld style 4 Bns) oversized offhnd wpn 6) off hnd str 6 Bns) Shld Spec 8 Bns) wpn spec (shld bash) Magic enchantments on both my Spiked Heavy Mithral Shields: +1 Bashing +1 Shielding (to turn both shields into bracers for easy carrying) +1 AC +1 Att/dmg For a total AC of +6 from the two shields, no armor check pen or max Dex, and I deal 2d8+8 (+1 enhance, +5 str, +2 Wpn Spec) dmg each shield. But it took me 8 lvl's to get there if I hadn't had another fighter to take up the slack in the beggining I would have died. I suggest starting with sword and shield and take the shield feats until your are an able ftr with two shields instead of starting with two shields and being "in the way" until lvl 6... I know I was in the way in the beggining the other fighter nearly killed me he was so upset with me. And I have used two shields in real life trying to figure out how to use them in combat. I used two rectangle target shields (from my karate class, I'm a 3rd degree black belt) and fought a few others trying to get it to flow right. There was a lot of bash them with one shield and spin around to hit them in the base of the skull with the bottom edge of the other shield going on. Rarely could I come straight in if they had a shield, unless I did Pin Shield, but if they didn't have a shield I could flat bash them or use the front edge to hit them, like a punch. If I was fast enough I could block there swords with one shield and hit them with the other. It's still a work in progress but I'm getting better. Maybe when I'm good enough I'll put it on youtube :D
Krusk 01-25-08, 07:37 PM	If you get half decent pleasedo put it on youtube. Thenwhenever this question comes up and people freak about how it is impossible they can be linked to it.
Captain_Kobold 01-25-08, 09:35 PM	Would that mean that if i use a shield and a sword and thake Two weapon defense...i dont really get more ac ... this sucks... The feats Mean that you have an expertise at using a two weapon to better defend yourself. (AND yes spiked shield is a weapon cause its on the wpn list) . So the guy who use 2 dagger get the same protection thant the guys who use a big round metal plate...... NAAA. Garbage with Shield AC don't stack!! You mean that someone who has trained heavily in blocking with his offhand (spending 2-3 feats on it) gets the same protection as the guy who has just picked up the shield. Of course as soon as you start adding magic, the guy with the shield gets better. But to answer your question, yes. If you are already using a shield, two-weapon defense does not do anything for you. However if you have already badgered your DM into letting you stack the AC of two shields together, there is nothing to prevent you from trying to pressure him into making another exception in the rules for you. If you are looking at shield feats, check out Shield Ward from the PHBII. Where are the Shieldmate feats from? Don't think I've seen them before and no idea what they do.
Xavon 01-26-08, 08:27 PM	Well, if you take the whole Two-Weapon Defense Tree, you end up with a +3 Shield bonus, which is better than Buckler, Light Shield, or Heavy Shield. But otherwise, it is a waste. Oh, and nice necromancing.
Bopple 01-27-08, 09:00 PM	Well, of course there are some illogical monstrosities like Spiked Chain or Dire Flail, that does not mean anything looks pretty or flavorful. Seriously, dual-wielding shields sounds silly. Why? Because shield has always been a secondary weapon. It is not decisively lethal, either. Furthermore, any shield bigger than buckler would hinder your visual range, when dual-wielded. And it is obvious that designers didn't think about it. Thus, its implementation needs some related rules. If it were to be allowed, enemies should get cover bonus against the wielder(not vice versa), imo. Come on. Would you praise the director if he made a movie in which Aragorn or Drizzt dual-wielded twin shields?
Krusk 01-28-08, 11:34 AM	Id bet with some effort i could find a movie where two shields were used, and im betting it might even be good. Now im gonna go look, ill report back if i find one. Aragorn, no id have been quite upset if he used two shields. The character was established as not doing so. drizzizzzitzit no, i would not praise the director for making a movie featuring that character. regardless of what he wielded. I could see him doing twin shields though, dosnt he do twin scimitars?
Bopple 01-28-08, 11:43 AM	You know Aragorn and Drizzt are just examples. I am asking how general fantasy fans would react if a light infantry type protagonist in a generic fantasy world, were portrayed with twin shields. And what would they think if they found out any fighter in that world could dual-wield twin shields without further penalty than twin weapons. Would they find it cool or silly? That is the question.
Krusk 01-28-08, 04:17 PM	Im sure they would only find it as cool or silly as a spiked chain, or legolas using a shield as a skateboard. This really depends on person taste, some people might find it cool while others find it to be the worst examples of cool ever. see naruto/inyuyasha/Tim and Eric Awesome Show, Great Job!/ anything else that is hugely popular with some and largely hated by others.
Bopple 01-28-08, 10:43 PM	If you want D&D as a looney game, that is fine with me. But that does not mean D&D is supposed to support looney game, as default. And I am quite curious, is there any precedented game, movie or animation protagonist using dual shields? While Spiked Chain or Dire Flail is quite stupid, there have been some cases where they are portrayed, especially in animations. And they were not looney-type anime. Furthermore, I have never seen anyone saying that Spiked Chain or Dire Flail are flavorful, while I have seen lots of people calling them stupid.
dragynson1 01-29-08, 12:52 PM	Why do people want to play dual wielding shield fighters? Is there some fiction that I do not know about that has created this craze? Do you realize how hard it would be to do anything with two 15 pound pieces of metal strapped to each of your arms? Please stop asking this, use the damn ax-buckler from Races of Stone and use something else in your main hand. actually yes , there have been several kung-fu movie that had a guy using two sheilds. One i remember the guy had two sharpened sheilds. and would slice and bash his opponents. he did some pretty awesome manuveurs with them.
Krusk 01-29-08, 03:11 PM	But that does not mean D&D is supposed to support looney game, as default. Can you please explain to me how DND is supposed to be played as default? Please note any things such as intended seriousness for the game, intended character themes, and any notes about intended settings. And thank you drahynson1 i have been combing through my kung fu movies for a while now, as i knew i had seen one.
Bopple 01-29-08, 11:21 PM	Well, for one thing, there is no rule for looney, comic, ironic or paradoxical situation? If it were the main theme or default feature, there would be rules about them, like Paranoia rules.
Krusk 01-30-08, 08:38 AM	Well, for one thing, there is no rule for looney, comic, ironic or paradoxical situation? If it were the main theme or default feature, there would be rules about them, like Paranoia rules. Paranoia has rules....? I guess i find paranoia works best as a more free form type of RPG. We petty much just use skill checks and play zap or classic/zap mix. Are you telling me that DND can not have any Ironic, funny, or paradoxical situations or the people running it are doing so wrong?
Bopple 01-30-08, 09:32 AM	I never said you should not use D&D as a platform for such games. I said it did not seem to be the default theme of D&D. Seriously, do you think D&D is made for such games by default? Or Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or Eberron are such campaign worlds? Rulesets like Paranoia or Munchkins are the ones targetting such games. And I am not merely arguing over single specific rule by rule here. The whole mechanics and flavor.
Krusk 01-30-08, 11:29 AM	You just said in two posts previous thatthere is no rule for looney, comic, ironic or paradoxical situation? If it were the main theme or default feature, there would be rules about them, like Paranoia rules. please be consistant. There is no right or wrong way to play DND so long as everyone is having fun. Greyhawk, eberron, forgotten realms, and the like are campaign settings, and you might interpret their settings as more serious. The flavor of core DND is that it has no given flavor, that is left up to each DM as they wish to run it. Give any two DM's the same set of rules the same fluff material and the same players and you will see two drastically diffrent games. What im trying to say is that there is no default ammount of humor or sillyness allowed in a DND game. It is 100% up to the people playing it to determine, and saying that someone is having fun wrong is a ridicilus thing to say. It reminds me of the kid on the playground who isn't invited to play four square, so he decideds to play referee and starts keeping score/calling fouls. No one asked him to, and the game was plenty fun without him.
Bopple 01-30-08, 08:47 PM	No, I am asking if there is any rules, features or flavor that would facilitate looney-type games in D&D, like Paranoia or Munchkins. If there is nothing, then there is no reason to think that kind of game is default theme of D&D. If nothing is mentioned, then we should assume the default would be similar to our real world. The day is warmer, the night is colder, sun gives you the sunlight, moon gives you moonlight, people cannot move by themselves after they die, sane/polite people don't make joyful remarks when it's a sad situation, etc etc. And I repeat that I am not saying you cannot or must not use D&D for such games.
Bopple 01-30-08, 10:38 PM	If you still don't buy it, read the Introduction part of Player's Handbook. It says you are taking the role of hero who sets out on epic quests for fortune and glory. It also says you become a strong fighter, clever rogue, devout cleric or powerful wizard in D&D, not comedic or idiotic morons.
Krusk 01-31-08, 12:44 AM	Kender. Anyway, this is almost turning into an offtopic debate/rant. You win, PM me if you really want to debate it some more. Sorry for derailing the entire thread, OP and anyone else who tried to read it.