Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 10-19-07, 10:09 PM	This isn't necessarily a feat, but it replaces feats as a variant. So I figured I'd put it here. In Dungeonscape, there's a Fighter class ability that replaces the level 2 and 6 feats. In exchange for those feats, it let nets you: 2nd level: +2 to AC and Saves vs Traps, +5 to break doors, +4d6 + x2 your str mod if you bull rush someone into a wall. 6th level: +4 to AC/Saves vs Traps, +10 to break doors, +8d6 + x3 yoru str mod in damage when bullrushing someone into a wall. The thing that alarms me is that 4d6 and 8d6 damage for bullrushing. That's a lot for those respective levels. This gets even sicker when you toss on Knockback (races of Stone), letting you get a free bull rush whenever you power attack. The reason I ask is, I'm thinking of styling a goliath basher who uses Dungeon Crasher + Knockback for this very thing, but it just looks really, really broken to me. And I have the feeling the GM will get maaad. :)
Grod_The_Giant 10-19-07, 10:19 PM	hmm...it does seem dangerous, especially in a classic dungeon crawl. My advice would be: don't tempt fate by playing a broken character.
VorpalBunny 10-19-07, 10:26 PM	Or only pull out the stops when absolutely needed: Remember Kids, just because you HAVE a class feature, doesn't mean you have to use it every fight. VB :)
Johnny_Angel 10-19-07, 10:29 PM	I don't think it's broken. You're burning two feats to get a little bit of trapsense and a special ability which deals a boat load of damage -provided that you succesfully bullrush. Compare the 8d6 with some of the spells and abilities that spellcasters have at 6th level; it's not that that bad. Like I said, you still have to succeed on the bull rush; furthermore, unless you have improved bull rush, you're still taking attacks of opportunity every time you do this. Also, it's only when you bull rush someone into a wall, so your normal bull rushes really aren't benefitting.
Jaxgaret 10-20-07, 01:59 AM	I don't think it's broken. You're burning two feats to get a little bit of trapsense and a special ability which deals a boat load of damage -provided that you succesfully bullrush. Compare the 8d6 with some of the spells and abilities that spellcasters have at 6th level; it's not that that bad. Like I said, you still have to succeed on the bull rush; furthermore, unless you have improved bull rush, you're still taking attacks of opportunity every time you do this. Also, it's only when you bull rush someone into a wall, so your normal bull rushes really aren't benefitting. The last bit that I bolded is the important part to note. It is a powerful variant, but by no means is it broken. In a forest, on the road, on the plains, on a hill - basically in any place that isn't a dungeon or an urban environment - the ability becomes nigh useless. And even in those environments you aren't going to be able to trigger it every round. Plus, it's Fighter-only. It's not going to kill your game.
Haruspex 10-20-07, 02:12 AM	Looks cool. If your DM doesn't like it he can just have you fight in a place without walls, doors, or traps (though that seems a bit much).
StruckingFuggle 10-20-07, 03:14 AM	The last bit that I bolded is the important part to note. I'm AFB at the moment, but I'm also fairly sure it's when they hit something that stops their rush, not specifically "a wall"... It is a powerful variant, but by no means is it broken. In a forest, on the road, on the plains, on a hill - basically in any place that isn't a dungeon or an urban environment - the ability becomes nigh useless. And even in those environments you aren't going to be able to trigger it every round. Forest? Unless my afb reading was wrong, there's plenty of trees in a forest. And if not, that's why you're friends with the wizard who can conjure walls or the like. Plus, it's Fighter-only. It's not going to kill your game. Fighter Only, but you can get DC1 for a two-level dip, which isn't too much fighter. :)
Rechan 10-20-07, 06:25 AM	Looks cool. If your DM doesn't like it he can just have you fight in a place without walls, doors, or traps (though that seems a bit much). We're playing Shackled City, I'm pretty sure most of that is dungeoncrawling. :) But the real trick here is that with Knockback, the Goliath's power build, and Imp Bull-rush, I can pretty much slam people into walls with every hit, assuming I can get them to the wall. Or at least, push enemies away from grouping up on allies. Even more nasty, Goliaths can use Huge weapons. It may be unwieldy to use indoors, but I intended on using a huge reach weapon and a huge club.
Majick 10-20-07, 06:54 AM	Even more nasty, Goliaths can use Huge weapons. It may be unwieldy to use indoors, but I intended on using a huge reach weapon and a huge club. Er... how? Goliaths can use LARGE weapons because they count as large for the purposes of weapon usage and a few other things. Also, weapon size does not effect reach. No matter how big the weapon is, if your medium size, a Greatclub will always have the same range.
Rechan 10-20-07, 07:04 AM	Er... how? Goliaths can use LARGE weapons because they count as large for the purposes of weapon usage and a few other things. A greataxe is a large weapon. A medium humanoid can use it two handed, a large creature can use it one handed. A large creature can use huge weapons two handed.
Arscura 10-20-07, 07:13 AM	Er... how? Goliaths can use LARGE weapons because they count as large for the purposes of weapon usage and a few other things. Also, weapon size does not effect reach. No matter how big the weapon is, if your medium size, a Greatclub will always have the same range. I think he means a two-handed reach weapon for large creatures, like a longspear that gives a +10 ft to reach, instead of +5 ft (see Ogre for example in the DM guide, his reach goes from 10 to 20 with a large longspear)
Treantmonklvl20 10-20-07, 10:34 AM	Dungeoncrasher is very situational. I am playing a Goliath fighter in one campaign right now, and I didn't take Dungeon Crasher - and I am a shameless optimizer. If you beat your opponent in your bullrush check - they must be right in front of a wall for dungeoncrasher to be effective. If you beat them by 5 - there can be 5' of space between them and the wall. If you beat them by 10 - there can be 10' of space between them and the wall. Most combats - even in a dungeon (and yes - there are lots of dungeons in Shackled City) you won't get to use it much. If you compare Dungeoncrasher damage compared to what you can do with charging (Leap attack, Heedless charge) it isn't that unreasonable.
StruckingFuggle 10-20-07, 12:25 PM	But the real trick here is that with Knockback, the Goliath's power build, and Imp Bull-rush, I can pretty much slam people into walls with every hit, assuming I can get them to the wall. Or at least, push enemies away from grouping up on allies. Don't forget Shock Trooper. Especially with a reach weapon. :) If you compare Dungeoncrasher damage compared to what you can do with charging (Leap attack, Heedless charge) it isn't that unreasonable. Of course, at sufficiently high level there's no reason you can't have Heedless Charge, Leap Attack, and Dungeon Crasher. Because with Knockback, you still deal weapon damage...
Treantmonklvl20 10-20-07, 02:00 PM	Of course, at sufficiently high level there's no reason you can't have Heedless Charge, Leap Attack, and Dungeon Crasher. Because with Knockback, you still deal weapon damage... No reason at all - and it's not a bad option. However, You could use the 2 feats from Dungeon Crasher plus 1 for knockback and get Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Knockdown instead. Consider each: Dungeon Crasher - Assuming pounce (lion totem barb dip) - you will probably hold off on the knockback until a later attack (or you will lose attacks) - hopefully the final attack hits and the Bullrush succeeds or you've wasted the ability. If it succeeds - you do more damage to the opponent - but put it in countercharge position. Tripper - Assuming pounce - you get a free trip attack on all attacks. Once one succeeds you get an extra attack - furthermore - all attacks once the opponent is prone are at +4. On your opponents turn - they are prone. Again - not saying Dungeon Crasher is a bad option - and if you are high enough level - you can do both. However - at low to mid levels - the Dungeon Crasher is more circumstantial, and even when you can use it, it's not always the better option. It's certainly not broken.
Garonak 10-20-07, 02:02 PM	A greataxe is a large weapon. A medium humanoid can use it two handed, a large creature can use it one handed. A large creature can use huge weapons two handed. Wrong. This is 3.5, not 3.0. In 3.5 you have light, one-handed and two-handed. Medium creatures can only use medium weapons (unless feat/ability/whatever special thingy, they can use small weapons, but at a penalty). A Medium Greataxe is a twohanded medium weapon. A Large creature can use it in two hands with a -2 to atk because it's not sized for him/her. Anyhow, I have a Maug Fighter/Warblade/Psychic Warrior in my group now and he's taken the Dungeon Crusher ability. Enemy #1: Eldritch Giant (MM3), huge with 42 in str. The Maug sends him into a wall dealing some 70hp in damage. Enemy #2: Iron Golem, Large 33 in str, same thing, 89hp in dmg... Broken, you could say that, but then we have: Enemy #3: Adult Green Dragon (Huge, 27 in str) in a forest. The Maug hits, the dragon is thrown away, but takes no damage because there's nothing but bushes and small trees in the bull rush path. Sure he kicks ass, but as a DM there's no problem in setting up scenarios where he can't use all his abilities to their full extent. You have to let them take advantage sometimes of course so that continue having fun. If you have an expert tumble in your group you let him meet a Knight/Warblade from time to time. Lvl 10 Knight and the right stance will up the Tumble DC by 10 and lower the check by 10 (effectivly increasing the DC by 20) within the Knight's threaten area, ad in a Large creature and a reach weapon... Maybe give him Imp trip aswell. There's ways around everything, you just have to plan a little ahead of time.
1 ton ghost 10-20-07, 02:51 PM	my friend employs this often for his 1/2 vamp Ftr (7th lvl). he basically looked at the damage, and said, "oh, i want." but did not consider the full shbang. -i had to point out Imp.Bullrush to make it more worth while (he didn't realize the AoO...should'a stayed quiet on that on) -bullrushing beyond 5ft forfeits your Full-Attack. sometimes all you need is 1 -having +2LA means 2 short on HD, a dangerous venture for the "tank" and getting right up in someone's $hit w/ a bullrush is an invitation for them to full-attack later...assuming you can even get high enough to push them. -caltrops, marbles, tanglefoot bags, and entangling FX -regular trees/most terrain won't suffice for most enemies. they'd have to be like valenwoods (dragonlance) or seqoias. large bolders on the ground and all, yes, but Crasher is mostly useful in urban, dungeon, and subterranean environs -not everything you'd want/can bullrush: most giants, incorporeals, oozes, weirdo abberrations, anything w/ an energy aura, etc. -enemy that knows you can do it will navigate away from walls, LARGE trees, use broken ground/cover to prevent charge bullrushes, etc. yeah, it's as serious as a heartattack, but once i looked over possible scenarios, i suppose it's ok. giving up 2 feats seems like small potatos though. for rogues, you should see Penetrating Strike (same book). holy $hit... 1/2 SA dice vs. creatures normally immune and all you trade is trap sense. well worth the trade. maybe even broken.
Jaxgaret 10-20-07, 03:59 PM	Anyhow, I have a Maug Fighter/Warblade/Psychic Warrior in my group now and he's taken the Dungeon Crusher ability. Does he have the Shoving Arm graft as well?
bkdubs123 10-20-07, 04:47 PM	I played it, and with my 6th level fighter with 20 strength, and improved bull rush and shock trooper I still wasn't succeeding all the time on my bull rush attempts (note: I am a notoriously unlucky die roller). Its not broken because bull rush is a full round action. If I try to bull rush someone, I can't attack them. If I fail, I do absolutely nothing for that round. In fact my DM houseruled that I could push people into other people in order to get the dungeoncrasher damage because it was so lackluster.
Salla 10-20-07, 04:49 PM	Dungeoncrasher actually makes the fighter marginally useful.
Sinfire Titan 10-20-07, 04:59 PM	This isn't necessarily a feat, but it replaces feats as a variant. So I figured I'd put it here. In Dungeonscape, there's a Fighter class ability that replaces the level 2 and 6 feats. In exchange for those feats, it let nets you: 2nd level: +2 to AC and Saves vs Traps, +5 to break doors, +4d6 + x2 your str mod if you bull rush someone into a wall. 6th level: +4 to AC/Saves vs Traps, +10 to break doors, +8d6 + x3 yoru str mod in damage when bullrushing someone into a wall. The thing that alarms me is that 4d6 and 8d6 damage for bullrushing. That's a lot for those respective levels. This gets even sicker when you toss on Knockback (races of Stone), letting you get a free bull rush whenever you power attack. The reason I ask is, I'm thinking of styling a goliath basher who uses Dungeon Crasher + Knockback for this very thing, but it just looks really, really broken to me. And I have the feeling the GM will get maaad. :) + any spellcaster who can cast Wall of Force/Stone/Iron/Ice/Sand/Glass/ any solid wall spell I missed= One very hurt enemy.
Jaxgaret 10-20-07, 07:02 PM	Dungeoncrasher actually makes the fighter marginally useful. Fighters have actually gotten a lot of love in recent supplements, particularly in PHBII. They're much more balanced to the other melee classes now. Still far behind the full casters though, like every other non-caster.
EjoThims 10-20-07, 09:11 PM	I played it, and with my 6th level fighter with 20 strength, and improved bull rush and shock trooper I still wasn't succeeding all the time on my bull rush attempts (note: I am a notoriously unlucky die roller). Its not broken because bull rush is a full round action. If I try to bull rush someone, I can't attack them. If I fail, I do absolutely nothing for that round. In fact my DM houseruled that I could push people into other people in order to get the dungeoncrasher damage because it was so lackluster. That's why knockback does such wonders. Bull Rush with every attack.
Garonak 10-21-07, 08:19 AM	Does he have the Shoving Arm graft as well? Nah, only graft he got is Shudder Plate. I think he actually used Awesome Blow to get some of the same effect... not sure how though... I'll have to ask him. Can't help but think about a Warforged Fighter/Warforged Juggernaut with Dungeon Crasher... could be a tad nasty... Especially if your dm allows you to house rule a Large Warforged .
Bopple 10-21-07, 09:00 AM	I remember there is a spell which summons a wall with a swift action. With it, dungeoncrasher is really wicked.
Treantmonklvl20 10-21-07, 10:55 AM	There is the Block of Wood spell. (I think that's what it's called) creates a 5'x5' block of wood as a swift action. A fighter with a single wizard level dip could cast that at the beginning of a round I suppose (would need some low arcane failure % armor).
Jaxgaret 10-21-07, 04:09 PM	There is the Block of Wood spell. (I think that's what it's called) creates a 5'x5' block of wood as a swift action. A fighter with a single wizard level dip could cast that at the beginning of a round I suppose (would need some low arcane failure % armor). I couldn't find any mention of a spell by that name. Could you confirm what the actual name of the spell is?
Bopple 10-22-07, 12:10 AM	It's Blockade. [Complete Scoundrel]
Jaxgaret 10-22-07, 12:42 AM	It's Blockade. [Complete Scoundrel] That spell has a range of zero feet. You summon the block in a square directly adjacent to you. Thus, no bullrushing opponents into it unless you circle around them and then bullrush them while still being close enough to the block for them to reach it. It seems like it's not really that useful for a Dungeon Crasher build.
Bopple 10-22-07, 01:29 AM	Yeah, but better than having no wall around. Furthermore, it's a swift action 1 lvl spell of Druid, Ranger, and Sor/Wiz. It wouldn't be hard to persuade your allies to cast it for you.
Jaxgaret 10-22-07, 11:34 AM	Yeah, but better than having no wall around. Furthermore, it's a swift action 1 lvl spell of Druid, Ranger, and Sor/Wiz. It wouldn't be hard to persuade your allies to cast it for you. It seems like it could be quite useful for an archery Ranger - instant cover if you need it.
Tempest Stormwind 10-22-07, 11:37 AM	I remember there is a spell which summons a wall with a swift action. With it, dungeoncrasher is really wicked. Why not stick to pure warrior classes? Granted, it's somewhat high-level, but Deepstone Sentinels can create pillars of stone that they can bull rush someone into.
Bob Loblaw 10-22-07, 11:47 AM	Dungeoncrasher isn't all that bad. Remember that you are probably only getting a single attack instead of the two or more attacks you would get if you didn't move. The fighter could deal quite a bit of damage, but is that really all that bad? The wizard can deal 6d6 damage to everything in a 20' radius and still be able to take a move action. If I were playing that fighter, I would try to get my hands on anything that can be used as a wall such as quall's feather tokens (tree), dearn's instant fortress, a folding boat, and a cube of force. I would consider buying scrolls, wands, and staffs with wall spells for the casters.
StruckingFuggle 10-22-07, 01:13 PM	Dungeoncrasher isn't all that bad. Remember that you are probably only getting a single attack instead of the two or more attacks you would get if you didn't move. Unless you have Knockback. Which makes Whirlwind Attack, or better yet those Whirlwind strikes, all the much cooler... :)
Bob Loblaw 10-22-07, 01:45 PM	Unless you have Knockback. Which makes Whirlwind Attack, or better yet those Whirlwind strikes, all the much cooler... :) True, but since you need to move, you are typically only going to have the single attack action. Of course, gaining the additional attacks from anything other than base attack is going to make this ability even nicer.
bfiggins 10-22-07, 01:51 PM	Unless you have Knockback. Which makes Whirlwind Attack, or better yet those Whirlwind strikes, all the much cooler... :) ...Oh man. A Whirlwind Attack/Knockback build? It's fantastic just for the image of throwing hordes of foes around the room!
SilentOne 10-22-07, 01:54 PM	Any way to get a Knockback-like effect without being Large?
Pechvarry 10-22-07, 02:05 PM	Dungeon Crasher - Assuming pounce (lion totem barb dip) - you will probably hold off on the knockback until a later attack (or you will lose attacks) - hopefully the final attack hits and the Bullrush succeeds or you've wasted the ability. If it succeeds - you do more damage to the opponent - but put it in countercharge position. Am I alone in thinking that Cometary Collision would be really funny on this theoretical build? Tripper - Assuming pounce - you get a free trip attack on all attacks. Once one succeeds you get an extra attack - furthermore - all attacks once the opponent is prone are at +4. On your opponents turn - they are prone. Thought Knockdown specifically stated that it didn't activate extra attacks from Improved Trip. Of course, last time I read it was in Sword & Fist. If it's been reprinted, I know naught of it. ...Oh man. A Whirlwind Attack/Knockback build? It's fantastic just for the image of throwing hordes of foes around the room! I played an epic character like that for like 2 sessions. Was very Sauron. Or maybe Dynasty Warriors. Any way to get a Knockback-like effect without being Large? Other than being Goliath or similar "massively medium" race... :waits: Maybe Jotunbrud or whatever? Don't know exact wording of it.