Dwarf fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dwarf fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 01:44 PM Is roll with it, and toughness, and improved toughness horrible feats to start with? Level two starting.
dman11235
02-13-08, 01:52 PM Well, roll with it is because it's so broken, and toughness is because it's terrible. And, wait, why am I responding? I don't read minds, I can't see what goes on in there. You need to tell me what you want to do and what you are trying to do.
LSMFT
02-13-08, 02:00 PM You’re going to have a bit more hp than average, and you’ll take less damage than others when you are hit, so I’d see you as quite a bit tougher than average to take down as long as you have a decent AC for your level. (Your hp will probably be about 30 hp with your Con. An average fighter at level 2 might have 21 so, that’s not too shabby.)

But, as time goes on and you level up, the benefits of Toughness is going to be a smaller and smaller percentage of your total hp. Opponents are going to be doing more and more damage on each hit, so the DR 2/- will be of less relative value as well.

If your plan is to keep taking Roll with It for stacking, it will probably work out pretty well.

But, I’d balance this with the knowledge that other fighters are going to take feats that allow them to hit more often and do more damage when they do. By focusing as much as you plan to on defense, you are not going to be as able to do things as well offensively as other might.
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 02:03 PM Just talked to my DM a little while ago. There is someone that may want to be a Ranger in the group. I am looking at being a Rouge but if they are set on that that changes what I want to do. So I would consider being a Dwarf fighter. I rolled a 18, 17, 17, 15, 12, 10. If I was the fighter I probaly would want him to be a DD later on. But I would want him to be as tough as nails first and foremost. I would add the fighting feats next. And does roll with it stack? If so that does seem a little broken. With improved toughness does that add 1hp per level? Every level.

Thanks
dman11235
02-13-08, 02:12 PM That's the main reason it's broken.

Well, the first thing I'd say is that you're in the wrong class to be a defensive tank. Crusader is probably best for that, and Knight is decent. Next, I'm not really sure what you want to do yet. There are still a great many of ways to do this. But I wil back out now, as tanking is not something I'm all too familiar with, and you'll get more help from someone else.
LSMFT
02-13-08, 02:13 PM Roll With It stacks, and can be taken multiple times.

Improved Toughness does add hp every level. Even as you advance.

Toughness by itself is not great and declines in relative value as you advance, but is a necessary prereq for both the feat and the PrC you like, so it still pays off for you.
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 02:16 PM That's what I was thinking that toughness does suck. But necessary. I wonder if my DM would modify it in someway to make it a little better. Any suggestions?
dman11235
02-13-08, 02:19 PM No. Don't change it, since it has been balanced as a prereq for DD.
LSMFT
02-13-08, 02:21 PM I would advise him not to.

While it sucks on its own, you are using it as a prereq for things that are good (like DD) and probably far too good (like Roll w/it.)

Making the qualifying prereq better makes the feat/PrC better in return. And they need no improvement IMHO.

Edit: I wonder how many times I can be ninjaed by dman on the same thread?
dman11235
02-13-08, 02:29 PM Maybe you just type slow.
Cartigan
02-13-08, 02:49 PM No. Don't change it, since it has been balanced as a prereq for DD.
I got my DM to change to pre-req for DD from Toughness to Improved Toughness.
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 03:06 PM Ok I guess like the Dwarf I may be a little greedy. If I started with those feats. What could be next? Any ideas?
LSMFT
02-13-08, 03:59 PM Well, with stacking DR, it would seem worth while to continue taking Roll w/It as often as possible.

You need Dodge and Endurance to qualify for DD, so you will want those. You may also wish to keep building up your defense with feats like Heavy Armor Optimization and Deflective Armor.

After that, the Defensive Stance cuts into your mobility, so you want to make sure you yourself aren't moved easily and mesh well with standing fast, such as Close-Quarters Fighting, Defensive Strike, Karmic Strike, Hold the Line.
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 04:00 PM Is there any advantage to taking Thick-Skinned after Roll With It?
dman11235
02-13-08, 04:07 PM Taking Stand Still will also help, and it keeps them in your reach. For this a Spiked Chain is best (most area covered). You can make it so that you stay near the spell casters, and the enemies can't get to the spell casters.

EDIT: LSMFT (what does that mean anyway?), the answer is 3. Or is it?
LSMFT
02-13-08, 04:10 PM Both can be taken multiple times. Both add 2 to your current DR. But Thick Skinned is capped. Once you've met the prereq for Roll With It, there seems to be no reason to not stick with that one.
seekanddestroy
02-13-08, 06:16 PM In which book is the Crusader? And what do you think:Str-17, Dex-17, Con 20, Int-15, Wis-10, Cha-10.
StevenO
02-13-08, 06:21 PM I'd allow Improved Toughness to serve as the prereq for anything requiring just Toughness. As the others have noted some things are perhaps a little stronger because they are based on the normally weak Toughness feat but I don't think allowing the Improved version to stand in hurts anything.
StevenO
02-13-08, 06:25 PM I believe Crusader is in the Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.
dman11235
02-13-08, 06:37 PM You know, I think that I'd allow Imp Toughness to replace toughness as well. IT isn't all that powerful, and 20 HP at level 20? Wow. That's sure game breaking.
ciaran
02-13-08, 11:36 PM Toughness. Has anyone taken it? I might. ONLY if I knew I was playing a level 1 or 2 game lasting a session or two. Maybe not even then. :)
dman11235
02-13-08, 11:53 PM It's a prereq for DD. But I have never taken it.
StevenO
02-14-08, 12:09 AM IF you can "retrain" the feat Toughness may be OK in the earlier levels but after 3rd level why bother.
pigknight
02-14-08, 03:17 AM If toughness was a fighter feat then it might get more use in core only games.
seekanddestroy
02-14-08, 09:23 AM What if I did not go the DD route. And took out toughness and improved toughness. Would it be better to go WF,WS or Cleave,GC? I don't know alot I just know I will be the heavy hitter of the bunch. Besides the ranger. Is Imp Int. a good feat? And does Melee weap. mast. stack with wf,gwf,ws,gws?
Cartigan
02-14-08, 11:06 AM If you did that you could prestige Tactical Soldier. If you took Combat Reflexes too.
seekanddestroy
02-14-08, 12:15 PM Tactical Soldier which book?
CryoSilver
02-14-08, 04:02 PM If you want to tank, you'll want Martial Study (Defensive Rebuke), Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Defensive Sweep, and maybe Robilar's Gambit, and probably EWP (spiked chain).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 01:44 PM	Is roll with it, and toughness, and improved toughness horrible feats to start with? Level two starting.
dman11235 02-13-08, 01:52 PM	Well, roll with it is because it's so broken, and toughness is because it's terrible. And, wait, why am I responding? I don't read minds, I can't see what goes on in there. You need to tell me what you want to do and what you are trying to do.
LSMFT 02-13-08, 02:00 PM	You’re going to have a bit more hp than average, and you’ll take less damage than others when you are hit, so I’d see you as quite a bit tougher than average to take down as long as you have a decent AC for your level. (Your hp will probably be about 30 hp with your Con. An average fighter at level 2 might have 21 so, that’s not too shabby.) But, as time goes on and you level up, the benefits of Toughness is going to be a smaller and smaller percentage of your total hp. Opponents are going to be doing more and more damage on each hit, so the DR 2/- will be of less relative value as well. If your plan is to keep taking Roll with It for stacking, it will probably work out pretty well. But, I’d balance this with the knowledge that other fighters are going to take feats that allow them to hit more often and do more damage when they do. By focusing as much as you plan to on defense, you are not going to be as able to do things as well offensively as other might.
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 02:03 PM	Just talked to my DM a little while ago. There is someone that may want to be a Ranger in the group. I am looking at being a Rouge but if they are set on that that changes what I want to do. So I would consider being a Dwarf fighter. I rolled a 18, 17, 17, 15, 12, 10. If I was the fighter I probaly would want him to be a DD later on. But I would want him to be as tough as nails first and foremost. I would add the fighting feats next. And does roll with it stack? If so that does seem a little broken. With improved toughness does that add 1hp per level? Every level. Thanks
dman11235 02-13-08, 02:12 PM	That's the main reason it's broken. Well, the first thing I'd say is that you're in the wrong class to be a defensive tank. Crusader is probably best for that, and Knight is decent. Next, I'm not really sure what you want to do yet. There are still a great many of ways to do this. But I wil back out now, as tanking is not something I'm all too familiar with, and you'll get more help from someone else.
LSMFT 02-13-08, 02:13 PM	Roll With It stacks, and can be taken multiple times. Improved Toughness does add hp every level. Even as you advance. Toughness by itself is not great and declines in relative value as you advance, but is a necessary prereq for both the feat and the PrC you like, so it still pays off for you.
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 02:16 PM	That's what I was thinking that toughness does suck. But necessary. I wonder if my DM would modify it in someway to make it a little better. Any suggestions?
dman11235 02-13-08, 02:19 PM	No. Don't change it, since it has been balanced as a prereq for DD.
LSMFT 02-13-08, 02:21 PM	I would advise him not to. While it sucks on its own, you are using it as a prereq for things that are good (like DD) and probably far too good (like Roll w/it.) Making the qualifying prereq better makes the feat/PrC better in return. And they need no improvement IMHO. Edit: I wonder how many times I can be ninjaed by dman on the same thread?
dman11235 02-13-08, 02:29 PM	Maybe you just type slow.
Cartigan 02-13-08, 02:49 PM	No. Don't change it, since it has been balanced as a prereq for DD. I got my DM to change to pre-req for DD from Toughness to Improved Toughness.
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 03:06 PM	Ok I guess like the Dwarf I may be a little greedy. If I started with those feats. What could be next? Any ideas?
LSMFT 02-13-08, 03:59 PM	Well, with stacking DR, it would seem worth while to continue taking Roll w/It as often as possible. You need Dodge and Endurance to qualify for DD, so you will want those. You may also wish to keep building up your defense with feats like Heavy Armor Optimization and Deflective Armor. After that, the Defensive Stance cuts into your mobility, so you want to make sure you yourself aren't moved easily and mesh well with standing fast, such as Close-Quarters Fighting, Defensive Strike, Karmic Strike, Hold the Line.
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 04:00 PM	Is there any advantage to taking Thick-Skinned after Roll With It?
dman11235 02-13-08, 04:07 PM	Taking Stand Still will also help, and it keeps them in your reach. For this a Spiked Chain is best (most area covered). You can make it so that you stay near the spell casters, and the enemies can't get to the spell casters. EDIT: LSMFT (what does that mean anyway?), the answer is 3. Or is it?
LSMFT 02-13-08, 04:10 PM	Both can be taken multiple times. Both add 2 to your current DR. But Thick Skinned is capped. Once you've met the prereq for Roll With It, there seems to be no reason to not stick with that one.
seekanddestroy 02-13-08, 06:16 PM	In which book is the Crusader? And what do you think:Str-17, Dex-17, Con 20, Int-15, Wis-10, Cha-10.
StevenO 02-13-08, 06:21 PM	I'd allow Improved Toughness to serve as the prereq for anything requiring just Toughness. As the others have noted some things are perhaps a little stronger because they are based on the normally weak Toughness feat but I don't think allowing the Improved version to stand in hurts anything.
StevenO 02-13-08, 06:25 PM	I believe Crusader is in the Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.
dman11235 02-13-08, 06:37 PM	You know, I think that I'd allow Imp Toughness to replace toughness as well. IT isn't all that powerful, and 20 HP at level 20? Wow. That's sure game breaking.
ciaran 02-13-08, 11:36 PM	Toughness. Has anyone taken it? I might. ONLY if I knew I was playing a level 1 or 2 game lasting a session or two. Maybe not even then. :)
dman11235 02-13-08, 11:53 PM	It's a prereq for DD. But I have never taken it.
StevenO 02-14-08, 12:09 AM	IF you can "retrain" the feat Toughness may be OK in the earlier levels but after 3rd level why bother.
pigknight 02-14-08, 03:17 AM	If toughness was a fighter feat then it might get more use in core only games.
seekanddestroy 02-14-08, 09:23 AM	What if I did not go the DD route. And took out toughness and improved toughness. Would it be better to go WF,WS or Cleave,GC? I don't know alot I just know I will be the heavy hitter of the bunch. Besides the ranger. Is Imp Int. a good feat? And does Melee weap. mast. stack with wf,gwf,ws,gws?
Cartigan 02-14-08, 11:06 AM	If you did that you could prestige Tactical Soldier. If you took Combat Reflexes too.
seekanddestroy 02-14-08, 12:15 PM	Tactical Soldier which book?
CryoSilver 02-14-08, 04:02 PM	If you want to tank, you'll want Martial Study (Defensive Rebuke), Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Defensive Sweep, and maybe Robilar's Gambit, and probably EWP (spiked chain).