Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lloardinen 01-23-08, 05:53 PM	I'm making a level 7 fighter/ 3 dwarf guardian, and I'm wondering: Is there any feats in the complete books+core rulebooks that are designed for "tanking" (hate to use that word in connection with D&D but hey, internet affects us all;) ). I've chosen so far: Die hard, Endurance(required), Dodge(required), Toughness(required), Improved bull rush, Power attack, Shock trooper(for extra AC mostly), Weapon Focus(waraxe) and Weapon spec.(waraxe). None of these feats can draw the attention away from my companions in any way, which can make my class quite useless(absolutely useless if playing with a nasty GM), cause monsters can just ignore me.. So any feats from these books would be appreciated. I took a look myself and didn't find anything, but wanted to be 100% sure before my final decision. Thanks in advance:D
Rulebook 01-23-08, 06:13 PM	you'll need Goad if youre going to play a dwarven defender. its in CA or CD (i forget.) otherwise, its the standard tactic... "Oh no, a Dwarven Defender! I had better WALK BRISKLY"
ToastedAmphibian 01-23-08, 06:39 PM	Well, i belive their might be a few. Is PHBII allowed? I belive thier is one there to the extent that, if you start a round next to someone, and they dont attack you or move away, then they provoke an AoO from you. Aside from that, Trip, Grapple, Bullrush, and Sunder can work fairly well. Also you could try having your nearest mage friend enl;arge you, then just stand in the way.... In ToB there is a stance that requiers anyone you threaten to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls that ARNT targeting you, but obviously that isnt in the books you mentioned, adn would requier you to take two feats. (Or take a level of Crusader)
StevenO 01-23-08, 06:55 PM	Unless that feat at Fighter 6 is worth that much to you I'd always take three levels of another fighting class to go with Fighter4 before entering Dwarven Defender. Granted some abilities may be CHA based but the Knight (PHB2) may not be a bad thing going into DD; I believe some of the challenges for your opponents onto you instead of your allies. While some DMs may not budge I'd ask if you can substitute Improved Toughness for Toughness in the DD's prereqs. Some won't but seeing how closely the two are related many will and the Improved version is better in the long run.
Rulebook 01-23-08, 06:57 PM	yeah, ive seen some good come out of a Knight/DD, but not enough to make the DD a worthwhile class.
Cartigan 01-23-08, 07:28 PM	yeah, ive seen some good come out of a Knight/DD, but not enough to make the DD a worthwhile class. The ability combinations do synergize, but you need a reach weapon to get anywhere useful due to the non-moving DD ability.
BigGus 01-23-08, 10:07 PM	Also you could try having your nearest mage friend enl;arge you, then just stand in the way.... :rofl: Aaargh! Giant Dwarves! But seriously, if you're threatening an area 30ft in diameter, it's going to make it hard for them to get at the people behind you without you getting AoOs on them at least...
Drackthor 01-23-08, 11:47 PM	Seriously? No way to attract monsters to you? What ever happened to a good ol' fashioned Dwarven "Yer' Momma'!" diss? If this doesn't sway your GM, actually voice the insult, and be sure to incorporate the accent. That's RPing as God intended, good sir.
Lloardinen 01-24-08, 02:35 AM	Thanks for your answers! We're NOT using PHB2, so the knight wont work. Will look into Goad though. We have ofc a wizard, although not an experienced one, so I'd better talk to him an persuade him into enlarge person (or just by him a scroll...) I don't know how the GM is, as it is his first time playing as it now...I'll try the insults, but not sure if it will work
Cartigan 01-24-08, 08:35 AM	Goad only works against enemies you threaten, and if you can't go in from Knight, it's just going to be a mess. And you might as well see if you can argue replacing the Toughness requirement with Improved Toughness, I'm going to try that with my DM next game.
Tordak 01-24-08, 09:40 AM	Well, you already have shock trooper and improved bull-rush, so combat expertise and imporve trip will let you take advantage of the domino rush option of shock trooper and get additional attack. If you plan on this tactic, consider combat reflexes for additional attack on foe trying to stand up. And working with reach weapon is very good with imporved trip (but not in combination with domino rush; change your tactic from fight to fight). Since you have dodge, mobility and elusive target (CW, there might be a skill prereq), altough you might think they're not very 'tank-like' would serve you well : you can give up your AC when charging (thanks to shock trooper) and not fear being power attack (unless there are many enemies threatening you). Not power attack from the target of your dodge mean your DR will annoy the hell out of him. With improved trip again, you'll take good advantage of all the features of elusive target. As a DD, you don't always have to rely on your defensive stance; you still have a great AC, and a very decent DR (also, thick skin from CW can increase it by 1; not much, but that's much better than feat like toughness and imporved toughness). Well this requires a bit of feats though. Since you're not using PHB 2, cometary collision (or som'in like that) is out of the question, to bad. Also, perhaps a few level of Hexblade, if you don't have to be good, could be interesting (3 level, you'll get mettle and arcane defense which go well with your racial bonus vs spell and SL). I'm saying this because 7th level fighter is sort of a waste; you get no additionnal feat and your saves won't improve. The fact that PHB2 is not used is annoying because lots of feat could help you defend you allies and control the battlefield. The other good book to look into is the Miniature Handbook. Check with your DM about those book. He doesn't even have to allow everything in there, only the feats. If you still can't use them, I'm not sure there's a mechanical way to ensure foe will attack you, other than beating them so hard that they'll stop ignoring you. Thrust me, after a few good charge with shock trooper (and perhaps leap attack from CA), and if you're dealing lots of damage, they won't just ignore you or you'll rip through most encounter. And dwarven defender are usually good to avoid TPK, just standing there forever.
Kratch 01-24-08, 09:53 AM	I aggree with much of what Tordak said. I'd also add that, with combat reflex's, Stand still (from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the SRD psionics section (it's not actually a psionic feat)). I also second the idea of an enlarge item (take up more space and superior reach). Possibly Hold the line (complete warrior) to get a hit in before charging enemies hit you (this is especially effective with combat reflex's (to let you do this even when flat footed), a reach weapon (to hit even large opponents before they can hit you) and stand still (to stop them in their tracks before they can step into range to hurt you or your allies. then on your turn you can 5ft step, full attack and make use of the charges -2 AC they took for nothing)
Cartigan 01-24-08, 10:35 AM	The problem with Shock Trooper is it has zero synergy with Dwarven Defender (if you didn't read it, you need to charge to make use of the abilities where the DD's special ability is you can't move). If you want to be a tank without being a mountain, you should really look at a different prestige class, or just stick to compounding feats as a fighter. I also don't see where Shock Trooper gives you more AC; are we talking about the tactical feat in CW?
Tordak 01-24-08, 11:07 AM	The problem with Dwarven Defender is that people see it's defensive stance ability as the only usefull ability he gets. Sure it's the basic DD ability, but the DR, AC bonus, uncanny dodge, good Fort and Will saves with full BAB and crappy-but-sometime-usefull trap sense make the DD worth it for any dwarven fighter. Not many class give you DR 6/-, espacially in 10 level, and you can't use figther feats to replace that; it would take 3 times Roll with it (DR 2/-), from a non core rulebook, to give you the same benefit, which requires Con 20 (arguably easy to get with dwarves) and toughness (ok, given, you needed it anyway). Add thick skin and a few of PiousTemplar (CD) levels and you get an extremly durable character (additional DR/-, mettle, a few decents spells). Given that DR is hard to stack if from different sources (for example, Armor specialisation and Adamantine Full plate don't offically stack), you'll be hard press to find something this good at non-epic level. And a character can charge using shock trooper and then adopt defensive stance since it is a free action. Now I'm aware there are better things to do with a guys who as shock trooper (get leap attack and a reach weapon, max rank in jump and leap around dealing death), but shock trooper can be use with improve trip and combat expertise to great effects. I did this combo once with a Warforged Juggernaut going around doing domino rush and then using the extra attacks from improved trip and combat reflexes to leave them absolutly useless. Use these tactics against many weak opponents, defensive stance against few (or one) stronger opponents.
Cartigan 01-24-08, 11:48 AM	The problem with Dwarven Defender is that people see it's defensive stance ability as the only usefull ability he gets. Sure it's the basic DD ability, but the DR, AC bonus, uncanny dodge, good Fort and Will saves with full BAB and crappy-but-sometime-usefull trap sense make the DD worth it for any dwarven fighter. So? Barbarian base class. Take Endurance and Steadfast Determination and you have Will saves you can't ignore, especially in Rage. You don't get as much DR, or by the same level, but you get it. The benefits are good - they are designed to keep him a tank - but it is really focused on the stance.