Echew Materials, worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Echew Materials, worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Venion
11-19-07, 07:31 PM We will be starting at 7th level and I am thinking of playing a Wizard. The thing is, in the setting we are playing in (post apocalyptic) there wont be many places to stop by and browse for bat crap and the like for spell components, so I am considering picking up Eschew Materials, just curious if it would be worth it.
Nephlite
11-19-07, 07:35 PM We will be starting at 7th level and I am thinking of playing a Wizard. The thing is, in the setting we are playing in (post apocalyptic) there wont be many places to stop by and browse for bat crap and the like for spell components, so I am considering picking up Eschew Materials, just curious if it would be worth it.

If DM said campaign won't allow you to refill spell componemt pouch much: than yes.
Suspect_Unusual
11-19-07, 07:35 PM Ask if you can instead get an item that will grant the Eschew Materials feat - given that the rules allow effectively infinite material components so long as you have a Spell Component Pouch (at, what, 5 gp a pop?), it seems reasonable that you could have a ring that grants Eschew Materials as the feat for, say, 2k gp.

If your DM applies houserules to spell components, like making you keep track of how much bat crap you have in your pouch, well, that sucks... and it makes Eschew Materials almost a necessity.
Venion
11-19-07, 07:38 PM I'll ask her if once bat guano hits the fan (when it becomes post apocalyptic) if I will be able to get spell components (of the common type at least) frequently, if not I'll ask about the item giving the feat.
StevenO
11-19-07, 07:56 PM Considering that it is effectively replaced by a 5gp item I say NO barring extreme situations.
Suspect_Unusual
11-19-07, 08:27 PM Considering that it is effectively replaced by a 5gp item I say NO barring extreme situations.

Mitigated? Yes. Replaced? No. What happens if your spell component pouch is taken (yeah, that attack role to prevent it is going to be pleeeeenty high to prevent that :rolleyes: ) or sundered? What happens if the DM imposes restrictions on how many material component uses come in a 5 gp pouch?

Is it always worth it getting Eschew Materials? No. Can it be, especially in circumstances the OP provided? I think so.
zeratulcraft
11-19-07, 08:42 PM I like it for thematic reasons, why should a sorcerer have to be touching bat crap to do something that is innate for him?

But yeah, if you're having to keep track of components, you should do it. Especially since thats a lot of book keeping. What with the amount of live spiders you have in there and stuff.
Radiun
11-19-07, 11:09 PM I like it for thematic reasons, why should a sorcerer have to be touching bat crap to do something that is innate for him?

Reaching into your spell component, your fingers recognize the bat guano. Fury burns through your very soul and, in an ultimate temper tantrum, you let loose a tremendous ball of fiery hatred at your enemies for making you touch such a vile substance!

I agree with you though, but I couldn't resist.
navar100
11-20-07, 01:45 AM Ask how the DM will handle spell components in general. By RAW, you need spell components to cast most spells. However, rather common practice is that spell components are ignored unless there is a (divine) focus or an expensive material component, such as 250gp diamond dust for Stoneskin. In other words, the rather common practice is that every spellcaster has virtual Eschew Materials feat.

The reason for this is because it gets rather tedious doing the bookkeeping of which material components you have and how much you have for specific number of castings of a spell. Ease of play trumps realism.

Given the world setting, I suspect expensive material components will be hard to find, so don't expect to cast Stoneskin often, if at all. However, Fireball will be just fine, and you won't need to find bat caves.
1 ton ghost
11-20-07, 01:51 AM yes, it is a sound investment in all campaigns and all situations.
best to keep feats as versatile as possible because you never know...

-someone could Sleight of Hand your component or whole bag
-you could be in an unfriendly environ where said component will dissolve, burn up, evaporate, break easilly.
-having it stripped (Disarmed?) or Sundered can truly suck (this is particularly effective when you get a cleric's holy symbol too; solution is to Sanctify (CompChamp) a shield/armor/something else)
-your bag might not be with you (in the privy, a bath, gettin' busy, etc. these are all excellent times to engage, specifically, sneak attack a mage)

there should be a system for bags and all, but keeping track of every last gob of bat crap, gauze, whatever, it's tedious. but not as tedious as hunting for the essentials i guess.
Darth Sephiroth
11-20-07, 10:17 AM Eschew Materials is a decent feat, however it is quickly outpaced by costs of spell components. I'd homebrewed an improved version (And added the improved feat as a prerequisite for the Ignore Material Components epic feat).

Greater Eschew Materials [General
You have less reliance on material components than most do.
Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, 3+ HD
Benefit: As with Eschew Materials save that you ignore or reduce the cost of material components up to a cost of 25 times your caster level in GP.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the GP limit of the ignored components.
RobbyPants
11-20-07, 10:57 AM I guess it could be nice for casting in a grapple, perhaps, but you would also need Still Spell while you're at it. For that matter, the single best spell you could cast while grappled (Dimension Door) has only a verbal component to begin with.

All in all, I think the times you will need Echew Materials should hopefully be few and far between. I guess you have to weight that out. If your DM limits how often you can refill a spell component pouch and/or limits the number of components in them, consider buying ten of fifty of them, and putting them in a Bag of Holding. It might sound stupid, but even fifty pouches costs a mere 250 gp.

Feats are far more precious than gold.
imakuni67
11-20-07, 11:07 AM I like it for thematic reasons, why should a sorcerer have to be touching bat crap to do something that is innate for him?

I think a decent amount of DM's give eschew material components to sorcerers for free, or even let them always ignore them.
KIDS
11-20-07, 05:11 PM I am very annoyed by the fact that eschew materials allows you to ignore components, but not focuses (sigh...). That way even if you houseruled away the sheer dumbness of your sorcerer having to reach for bat guano, he still needs a bloody "small wooden replica of an archery target" and thus another houserule. What the hell...

Hypothetically, is focus (arcane or divine) a material component?
material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.
CrimsonDeath
11-20-07, 06:38 PM Eschew Materials is a decent feat, however it is quickly outpaced by costs of spell components. I'd homebrewed an improved version (And added the improved feat as a prerequisite for the Ignore Material Components epic feat).

Greater Eschew Materials [General
You have less reliance on material components than most do.
Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, 3+ HD
Benefit: As with Eschew Materials save that you ignore or reduce the cost of material components up to a cost of 25 times your caster level in GP.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the GP limit of the ignored components.

The main problem with this is that it treads on the territory of an Epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents). It's probably weak enough to avoid being too bad.
BW0222
11-20-07, 06:56 PM Venion,

Echew Materials, worth it?

Typically, it is not worth it as a feat.

The usual cases when the feat is useful are:

Separated from your component pouch. Typically, imprisoned, pick-pocketed prior to a combat, someone targetting your component pouch, or in some strange place where you can't refill your components. Most DMs don't like getting into this that often, since it really is annoying.

Grappled or otherwise unable to get your components out of your pouch. However, most of these conditions prevent normal spellcasting anyway, so it typically is the least of your issues.

Underwater. Some DMs might rule that certain components do not function underwater, wind, rain, etc. Most are being pretty harsh, but you can't have "powdered" sand underwater. 99.9% of DM and players ignore this as it is time consuming and annoying.

Stealth. You wish to disquise yourself, get past guards, or get into the king's ball and expect to have spellcasting stuff removed. If you don't need spell components it is easier to get in to highly secured places.

Typically, in most campaigns, folks just don't care enough to look up individual components and see if there might be an issue, or to track the number in your pouch. Thus, in most cases, it isn't typically that big of an issue.

In the Arcanis setting, being caught as an arcane caster can get one in some serious trouble -- arcane folks are hunted by a certain powerful group in that setting. Thus, eschew materials means that when searched, you aren't carrying all sorts of evidence that you are a caster. However, in Arcanis, all sorcerors begin with eschew materials as a bonus feat.
tyrecian
11-20-07, 07:16 PM I have never taken this feat, and usually buy around 10 spell component pouches and have them in different places (in the boot, robe pocket, haversack, belt pouch, etc.). I have never really had a problem with it coming up in terms of DM being harsh.

I have had it used against me in terms of roleplaying (the guards strip you and take you away, being a great example of a time when you look through the book for spells that are V/S only :)), but those are the breaks, ya know?

Yes, Eschew Materials can be nice in some nasty situations, but clever can also help out, and being a party member as well. Buy several component pouches and feel secure.

Then again, when i DM, one of my players ALWAYS takes this feat at 1st level with any caster he has. No exception, an arcane caster always takes this feat when he plays. He is pre-empting any nonsense i might throw in where he is naked and can't cast. So it really depends on the player... :)

Over time i realized that i am just not as paranoid as him. My casters are more like bumbling librarians and his more like tin foil hat conspirasts (granted he did intel gatherring in the U.S. Navy for many years). He would never give up this feat, while i choose metamagics over the feat simply because my wizards like power over control.

Really its up to the wizard you are playing... how do you see him? Is he so paranoid that he will not suffer having to have trust in outside elements to weild his power? Or is he a traditionalist that believes that the universe must be in balance for magic to be sustainable, and that tamperring with the flow of magic, i.e. bat guano in exchange for a ball of fire, and its material conduits could present great danger...?

I like making decisions based on roleplay, it makes it easier to explain them to powergamers who say "Eschew materials?!? Great, we are playing with a moron, might as well reroll..." :D
Rulebook
11-21-07, 11:56 AM i see it this way, with one of three things happening:

1. your dm will relent and allow you to replenish your spell pouch often
2. he lets you use the Spell Compendium
3. he's a total jerk with a grudge against spellcasters

start making lists of spells that dont have material components... you'd be suprised at how easy it is to play a caster without them (especially if you have the spell compendium)
orion73
11-21-07, 12:25 PM I hope this is one of the things 4E fixes... :)
Darth Sephiroth
11-21-07, 02:29 PM The main problem with this is that it treads on the territory of an Epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents). It's probably weak enough to avoid being too bad.

Most of the time I'd made Ignore a non-epic feat making it a decent feat chain for casters. I've also home brewed an extra feat in it that eliminates the need for a focus.

Eschew Focus [General]
You have no need of non-specific focus' in casting.
Prerequisite: Eschew Materials
Benefit: You no longer require a focus unless the spell calls for a specific focus

Greater Eschew Materials [General]
You have less reliance on material components than most do.
Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, 3+ HD
Benefit: As with Eschew Materials save that you ignore or reduce the cost of material components up to a cost of 25 times your caster level in GP.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the GP limit of the ignored components.

Eschew Materials
->Greater Eschew Materials [3+HD] (Can be taken multiple times)
-->Ignore Material Components [15+HD]
->Eschew Focus [6+HD]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Venion 11-19-07, 07:31 PM	We will be starting at 7th level and I am thinking of playing a Wizard. The thing is, in the setting we are playing in (post apocalyptic) there wont be many places to stop by and browse for bat crap and the like for spell components, so I am considering picking up Eschew Materials, just curious if it would be worth it.
Nephlite 11-19-07, 07:35 PM	We will be starting at 7th level and I am thinking of playing a Wizard. The thing is, in the setting we are playing in (post apocalyptic) there wont be many places to stop by and browse for bat crap and the like for spell components, so I am considering picking up Eschew Materials, just curious if it would be worth it. If DM said campaign won't allow you to refill spell componemt pouch much: than yes.
Suspect_Unusual 11-19-07, 07:35 PM	Ask if you can instead get an item that will grant the Eschew Materials feat - given that the rules allow effectively infinite material components so long as you have a Spell Component Pouch (at, what, 5 gp a pop?), it seems reasonable that you could have a ring that grants Eschew Materials as the feat for, say, 2k gp. If your DM applies houserules to spell components, like making you keep track of how much bat crap you have in your pouch, well, that sucks... and it makes Eschew Materials almost a necessity.
Venion 11-19-07, 07:38 PM	I'll ask her if once bat guano hits the fan (when it becomes post apocalyptic) if I will be able to get spell components (of the common type at least) frequently, if not I'll ask about the item giving the feat.
StevenO 11-19-07, 07:56 PM	Considering that it is effectively replaced by a 5gp item I say NO barring extreme situations.
Suspect_Unusual 11-19-07, 08:27 PM	Considering that it is effectively replaced by a 5gp item I say NO barring extreme situations. Mitigated? Yes. Replaced? No. What happens if your spell component pouch is taken (yeah, that attack role to prevent it is going to be pleeeeenty high to prevent that :rolleyes: ) or sundered? What happens if the DM imposes restrictions on how many material component uses come in a 5 gp pouch? Is it always worth it getting Eschew Materials? No. Can it be, especially in circumstances the OP provided? I think so.
zeratulcraft 11-19-07, 08:42 PM	I like it for thematic reasons, why should a sorcerer have to be touching bat crap to do something that is innate for him? But yeah, if you're having to keep track of components, you should do it. Especially since thats a lot of book keeping. What with the amount of live spiders you have in there and stuff.
Radiun 11-19-07, 11:09 PM	I like it for thematic reasons, why should a sorcerer have to be touching bat crap to do something that is innate for him? Reaching into your spell component, your fingers recognize the bat guano. Fury burns through your very soul and, in an ultimate temper tantrum, you let loose a tremendous ball of fiery hatred at your enemies for making you touch such a vile substance! I agree with you though, but I couldn't resist.
navar100 11-20-07, 01:45 AM	Ask how the DM will handle spell components in general. By RAW, you need spell components to cast most spells. However, rather common practice is that spell components are ignored unless there is a (divine) focus or an expensive material component, such as 250gp diamond dust for Stoneskin. In other words, the rather common practice is that every spellcaster has virtual Eschew Materials feat. The reason for this is because it gets rather tedious doing the bookkeeping of which material components you have and how much you have for specific number of castings of a spell. Ease of play trumps realism. Given the world setting, I suspect expensive material components will be hard to find, so don't expect to cast Stoneskin often, if at all. However, Fireball will be just fine, and you won't need to find bat caves.
1 ton ghost 11-20-07, 01:51 AM	yes, it is a sound investment in all campaigns and all situations. best to keep feats as versatile as possible because you never know... -someone could Sleight of Hand your component or whole bag -you could be in an unfriendly environ where said component will dissolve, burn up, evaporate, break easilly. -having it stripped (Disarmed?) or Sundered can truly suck (this is particularly effective when you get a cleric's holy symbol too; solution is to Sanctify (CompChamp) a shield/armor/something else) -your bag might not be with you (in the privy, a bath, gettin' busy, etc. these are all excellent times to engage, specifically, sneak attack a mage) there should be a system for bags and all, but keeping track of every last gob of bat crap, gauze, whatever, it's tedious. but not as tedious as hunting for the essentials i guess.
Darth Sephiroth 11-20-07, 10:17 AM	Eschew Materials is a decent feat, however it is quickly outpaced by costs of spell components. I'd homebrewed an improved version (And added the improved feat as a prerequisite for the Ignore Material Components epic feat). Greater Eschew Materials [General You have less reliance on material components than most do. Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, 3+ HD Benefit: As with Eschew Materials save that you ignore or reduce the cost of material components up to a cost of 25 times your caster level in GP. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the GP limit of the ignored components.
RobbyPants 11-20-07, 10:57 AM	I guess it could be nice for casting in a grapple, perhaps, but you would also need Still Spell while you're at it. For that matter, the single best spell you could cast while grappled (Dimension Door) has only a verbal component to begin with. All in all, I think the times you will need Echew Materials should hopefully be few and far between. I guess you have to weight that out. If your DM limits how often you can refill a spell component pouch and/or limits the number of components in them, consider buying ten of fifty of them, and putting them in a Bag of Holding. It might sound stupid, but even fifty pouches costs a mere 250 gp. Feats are far more precious than gold.
imakuni67 11-20-07, 11:07 AM	I like it for thematic reasons, why should a sorcerer have to be touching bat crap to do something that is innate for him? I think a decent amount of DM's give eschew material components to sorcerers for free, or even let them always ignore them.
KIDS 11-20-07, 05:11 PM	I am very annoyed by the fact that eschew materials allows you to ignore components, but not focuses (sigh...). That way even if you houseruled away the sheer dumbness of your sorcerer having to reach for bat guano, he still needs a bloody "small wooden replica of an archery target" and thus another houserule. What the hell... Hypothetically, is focus (arcane or divine) a material component? material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.
CrimsonDeath 11-20-07, 06:38 PM	Eschew Materials is a decent feat, however it is quickly outpaced by costs of spell components. I'd homebrewed an improved version (And added the improved feat as a prerequisite for the Ignore Material Components epic feat). Greater Eschew Materials [General You have less reliance on material components than most do. Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, 3+ HD Benefit: As with Eschew Materials save that you ignore or reduce the cost of material components up to a cost of 25 times your caster level in GP. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the GP limit of the ignored components. The main problem with this is that it treads on the territory of an Epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents). It's probably weak enough to avoid being too bad.
BW0222 11-20-07, 06:56 PM	Venion, Echew Materials, worth it? Typically, it is not worth it as a feat. The usual cases when the feat is useful are: Separated from your component pouch. Typically, imprisoned, pick-pocketed prior to a combat, someone targetting your component pouch, or in some strange place where you can't refill your components. Most DMs don't like getting into this that often, since it really is annoying. Grappled or otherwise unable to get your components out of your pouch. However, most of these conditions prevent normal spellcasting anyway, so it typically is the least of your issues. Underwater. Some DMs might rule that certain components do not function underwater, wind, rain, etc. Most are being pretty harsh, but you can't have "powdered" sand underwater. 99.9% of DM and players ignore this as it is time consuming and annoying. Stealth. You wish to disquise yourself, get past guards, or get into the king's ball and expect to have spellcasting stuff removed. If you don't need spell components it is easier to get in to highly secured places. Typically, in most campaigns, folks just don't care enough to look up individual components and see if there might be an issue, or to track the number in your pouch. Thus, in most cases, it isn't typically that big of an issue. In the Arcanis setting, being caught as an arcane caster can get one in some serious trouble -- arcane folks are hunted by a certain powerful group in that setting. Thus, eschew materials means that when searched, you aren't carrying all sorts of evidence that you are a caster. However, in Arcanis, all sorcerors begin with eschew materials as a bonus feat.
tyrecian 11-20-07, 07:16 PM	I have never taken this feat, and usually buy around 10 spell component pouches and have them in different places (in the boot, robe pocket, haversack, belt pouch, etc.). I have never really had a problem with it coming up in terms of DM being harsh. I have had it used against me in terms of roleplaying (the guards strip you and take you away, being a great example of a time when you look through the book for spells that are V/S only :)), but those are the breaks, ya know? Yes, Eschew Materials can be nice in some nasty situations, but clever can also help out, and being a party member as well. Buy several component pouches and feel secure. Then again, when i DM, one of my players ALWAYS takes this feat at 1st level with any caster he has. No exception, an arcane caster always takes this feat when he plays. He is pre-empting any nonsense i might throw in where he is naked and can't cast. So it really depends on the player... :) Over time i realized that i am just not as paranoid as him. My casters are more like bumbling librarians and his more like tin foil hat conspirasts (granted he did intel gatherring in the U.S. Navy for many years). He would never give up this feat, while i choose metamagics over the feat simply because my wizards like power over control. Really its up to the wizard you are playing... how do you see him? Is he so paranoid that he will not suffer having to have trust in outside elements to weild his power? Or is he a traditionalist that believes that the universe must be in balance for magic to be sustainable, and that tamperring with the flow of magic, i.e. bat guano in exchange for a ball of fire, and its material conduits could present great danger...? I like making decisions based on roleplay, it makes it easier to explain them to powergamers who say "Eschew materials?!? Great, we are playing with a moron, might as well reroll..." :D
Rulebook 11-21-07, 11:56 AM	i see it this way, with one of three things happening: 1. your dm will relent and allow you to replenish your spell pouch often 2. he lets you use the Spell Compendium 3. he's a total jerk with a grudge against spellcasters start making lists of spells that dont have material components... you'd be suprised at how easy it is to play a caster without them (especially if you have the spell compendium)
orion73 11-21-07, 12:25 PM	I hope this is one of the things 4E fixes... :)
Darth Sephiroth 11-21-07, 02:29 PM	The main problem with this is that it treads on the territory of an Epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents). It's probably weak enough to avoid being too bad. Most of the time I'd made Ignore a non-epic feat making it a decent feat chain for casters. I've also home brewed an extra feat in it that eliminates the need for a focus. Eschew Focus [General] You have no need of non-specific focus' in casting. Prerequisite: Eschew Materials Benefit: You no longer require a focus unless the spell calls for a specific focus Greater Eschew Materials [General] You have less reliance on material components than most do. Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, 3+ HD Benefit: As with Eschew Materials save that you ignore or reduce the cost of material components up to a cost of 25 times your caster level in GP. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the GP limit of the ignored components. Eschew Materials ->Greater Eschew Materials [3+HD] (Can be taken multiple times) -->Ignore Material Components [15+HD] ->Eschew Focus [6+HD]