ECL and Vow of Poverty [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL and Vow of Poverty [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
03-10-08, 01:22 AM In the campaign I run a half-celestial PC has the Vow of Poverty feat. The player has been treating the Vow of Poverty as referring to the character's actual class levels (hit dice) rather than to his ECL. That means that at 21st level, which he just reached, he has only 17 actual class levels and gives his character the benefits under Vow of Poverty as per level 17. Do you think the player is using the right level, or do you think the player should use the ECL rather than actual class levels to do determine the benefits from Vow of Poverty, and why? Thanks! :)
runestar
03-10-08, 03:21 AM If you consider that VOP is essentially an alternate source of eq, and that wealth is determined by ECL (for example, an astral deva PC in a lv20 party would get gear appropriate for a lv20 PC), it makes sense to use ECL to determine VOP's benefits for a PC.:)
Thorsbjorn
03-10-08, 03:36 PM If you consider that VOP is essentially an alternate source of eq, and that wealth is determined by ECL (for example, an astral deva PC in a lv20 party would get gear appropriate for a lv20 PC), it makes sense to use ECL to determine VOP's benefits for a PC.:)

Yes, that makes sense. I have, however, been starting new PCs with NPC wealth rather than PC wealth because for a long time my campaign had less treasure than standard. In that case, using ECL might more closely approximate the party's wealth.
Quoward
03-10-08, 03:48 PM Well, considering, even for a monk (Actually, even for a druid), VoP actually gives you less bonuses than you'd be getting from items as high levels, and is thus only good at low levels. It depends on how much less treasure you've been giving out, as it'd only be fair to give it out based on HD not of ECL if the other players are under half the wealth they should have.
Thorsbjorn
03-12-08, 10:30 PM Well, considering, even for a monk (Actually, even for a druid), VoP actually gives you less bonuses than you'd be getting from items as high levels, and is thus only good at low levels. It depends on how much less treasure you've been giving out, as it'd only be fair to give it out based on HD not of ECL if the other players are under half the wealth they should have.

Well he doesn't seem to have been shortchanged much using the class levels instead of ECL. His bonuses are right up there with everyone else's, and he has the highest AC in the party.
runestar
03-13-08, 07:16 AM I think someone has tried converting VOP's benefits into an equivalent gp cost. You could try searching for it, then matching your average PC's wealth to the appropriate lv.

For example, say your PC's wealth at lv21 is around 500,000gp (say), which corresponds to the estimated wealth benefit provided by VOP at lv16 (hypothetically, I am just pulling these numbers out of thin air). So you reference the bonuses granted by VOP at lv16 and use those.
narack
03-13-08, 07:30 AM if you ever reach level 16 with Vow of Poverty. it's pretty good low level but once you hit level 10-12 your crying because you don't have magic item.
Thorsbjorn
03-13-08, 06:33 PM I think someone has tried converting VOP's benefits into an equivalent gp cost. You could try searching for it, then matching your average PC's wealth to the appropriate lv.

For example, say your PC's wealth at lv21 is around 500,000gp (say), which corresponds to the estimated wealth benefit provided by VOP at lv16 (hypothetically, I am just pulling these numbers out of thin air). So you reference the bonuses granted by VOP at lv16 and use those.

Thanks Rune! You are wise and helpful as always. I don't really know how much wealth the party has accumulated. I have a better idea of what sort of bonuses everyone has to various and sundry: most party members have a +6 enhancement bonus to what they consider to be the most important ability score; most are about to have a +5 inherent bonus to the same score (all but the monk got books recently and have been reading them slowly as the days go by); most have +4 or +5 enhancement bonuses; I think most of the weapon users have a +4 or +5 enhancement on the primary weapon; a couple have +2 or +4 enhancement bonuses to a secondary ability score, and a couple have +1 or +3 enhancement bonuses to natural armor. Of course that doesn't really begin to cover all their magic items, but some, like their staff of life and their newly-minted staff of revivify and mass heal benefits the whole party, including the monk. The monk though too has many other abilities garnered from his vow bonus feats and other vow items. We so far haven't had a major combat so it's been hard to tell where he stands versus, say, the half-celestial melee specialist. So far there hasn't been any appreciable difference and frankly, whether I allow him to use ECL or class level probably isn't going to make that huge a difference in his combat capabilities at 21st level. I think, for instance, that he'd get an additional +2 on attack and damage rolls. A difference like that means a great deal at 1st or 2nd level, but no so much at 21st. That actually sort of inclines me in the direction of letting him use ECL with the vow.

There's one strange wrinkle that would come from allowing him to use his ECL instead of class level. He's reached an ECL of 21 now, but there are no benefits beyond 20th. I've told him that I'll create an Epic Vow of Poverty feat that will continue the periodic benefits (various bonuses primarily), but he can't take it until he gets 21 class levels at an ECL of 25. So if I use his ECL for the vow, he'll get nothing at ECLs 21-24 and then suddenly at ECL 25 he'd get the benefits of the epic vow for levels 21-25. That inclines me toward using class level with the vow. What do you think? :)
runestar
03-13-08, 07:32 PM I've told him that I'll create an Epic Vow of Poverty feat that will continue the periodic benefits (various bonuses primarily), but he can't take it until he gets 21 class levels at an ECL of 25. So if I use his ECL for the vow, he'll get nothing at ECLs 21-24 and then suddenly at ECL 25 he'd get the benefits of the epic vow for levels 21-25. That inclines me toward using class level with the vow. What do you think?

Why the sudden jump in VOP benefits?:confused:

There might be an epic VOP progression somewhere, maybe in the epic boards?
JulesCARV
03-13-08, 07:47 PM If you're using NPC wealth levels instead of PC wealth levels, then I think the best approach is to use the ECL, but subtract something from ECL to bring it into line with NPC wealth levels. In short, Vow of Poverty should benefit at approximately the same level that a character with expected levels of wealth would gain the amount of wealth that your non-VoP characters have in practice.

E.g., using made-up examples, if a level 10 normal wealth character is expected to have 60,000 gp (not from the actual table), and your level (ECL) 15 character typically have around 60,000 gp of gear, then the Vow of Poverty benefits should be at around what a 10th level VoP character would receive in a normal campaign.

In practice, if your characters approximately have NPC gear values, this roughly means...

Levels 1-3: no penalty (NPC gear values are actually higher than PC expected wealth at levels 1 and 2)

Levels 4-5: -1 level penalty to VoP level.

Levels 6-7: -2 level penalty to VoP benefits

Levels 8-10: -3 level penalty to VoP benefits

Levels 11-15: -4 level penalty to VoP benefits

Levels 16-20: -5 level penalty to VoP benefits:
Thorsbjorn
03-13-08, 07:48 PM Why the sudden jump in VOP benefits?:confused:

There might be an epic VOP progression somewhere, maybe in the epic boards?

The sudden jump would come from the fact that you can't get an epic feat until the number of your hit dice, not your ECL, gets to 21. So with an LA of +4 he can't get his first epic feat until he reaches ECL 25.

If you're using NPC wealth levels instead of PC wealth levels, then I think the best approach is to use the ECL, but subtract something from ECL to bring it into line with NPC wealth levels. In short, Vow of Poverty should benefit at approximately the same level that a character with expected levels of wealth would gain the amount of wealth that your non-VoP characters have in practice.

E.g., using made-up examples, if a level 10 normal wealth character is expected to have 60,000 gp (not from the actual table), and your level (ECL) 15 character typically have around 60,000 gp of gear, then the Vow of Poverty benefits should be at around what a 10th level VoP character would receive in a normal campaign.

In practice, if your characters approximately have NPC gear values, this roughly means...

Levels 1-3: no penalty (NPC gear values are actually higher than PC expected wealth at levels 1 and 2)

Levels 4-5: -1 level penalty to VoP level.

Levels 6-7: -2 level penalty to VoP benefits

Levels 8-10: -3 level penalty to VoP benefits

Levels 11-15: -4 level penalty to VoP benefits

Levels 16-20: -5 level penalty to VoP benefits:

We he's ECL 21, with an LA of +4, so under your proposal he'd be even worse off with ECL -5 (-6 for 21st) = 16 (or 15) than his current actual class level of 17. I'm certainly not going to penalize him further than that.
nameneeded
03-14-08, 02:08 AM I myself prefer the HD progression. But that not why I'm here. I think this may help in your epic quest.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=554563&highlight=Epic+VoP
Thorsbjorn
03-14-08, 11:25 AM I myself prefer the HD progression. But that not why I'm here. I think this may help in your epic quest.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=554563&highlight=Epic+VoP

I happened to read that when he originally posted it. Shortly thereafter the player of the monk sent me a link to it. The player sent me the link once again last weekend. You didn't know any of that, so thanks for giving it to me. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 03-10-08, 01:22 AM	In the campaign I run a half-celestial PC has the Vow of Poverty feat. The player has been treating the Vow of Poverty as referring to the character's actual class levels (hit dice) rather than to his ECL. That means that at 21st level, which he just reached, he has only 17 actual class levels and gives his character the benefits under Vow of Poverty as per level 17. Do you think the player is using the right level, or do you think the player should use the ECL rather than actual class levels to do determine the benefits from Vow of Poverty, and why? Thanks! :)
runestar 03-10-08, 03:21 AM	If you consider that VOP is essentially an alternate source of eq, and that wealth is determined by ECL (for example, an astral deva PC in a lv20 party would get gear appropriate for a lv20 PC), it makes sense to use ECL to determine VOP's benefits for a PC.:)
Thorsbjorn 03-10-08, 03:36 PM	If you consider that VOP is essentially an alternate source of eq, and that wealth is determined by ECL (for example, an astral deva PC in a lv20 party would get gear appropriate for a lv20 PC), it makes sense to use ECL to determine VOP's benefits for a PC.:) Yes, that makes sense. I have, however, been starting new PCs with NPC wealth rather than PC wealth because for a long time my campaign had less treasure than standard. In that case, using ECL might more closely approximate the party's wealth.
Quoward 03-10-08, 03:48 PM	Well, considering, even for a monk (Actually, even for a druid), VoP actually gives you less bonuses than you'd be getting from items as high levels, and is thus only good at low levels. It depends on how much less treasure you've been giving out, as it'd only be fair to give it out based on HD not of ECL if the other players are under half the wealth they should have.
Thorsbjorn 03-12-08, 10:30 PM	Well, considering, even for a monk (Actually, even for a druid), VoP actually gives you less bonuses than you'd be getting from items as high levels, and is thus only good at low levels. It depends on how much less treasure you've been giving out, as it'd only be fair to give it out based on HD not of ECL if the other players are under half the wealth they should have. Well he doesn't seem to have been shortchanged much using the class levels instead of ECL. His bonuses are right up there with everyone else's, and he has the highest AC in the party.
runestar 03-13-08, 07:16 AM	I think someone has tried converting VOP's benefits into an equivalent gp cost. You could try searching for it, then matching your average PC's wealth to the appropriate lv. For example, say your PC's wealth at lv21 is around 500,000gp (say), which corresponds to the estimated wealth benefit provided by VOP at lv16 (hypothetically, I am just pulling these numbers out of thin air). So you reference the bonuses granted by VOP at lv16 and use those.
narack 03-13-08, 07:30 AM	if you ever reach level 16 with Vow of Poverty. it's pretty good low level but once you hit level 10-12 your crying because you don't have magic item.
Thorsbjorn 03-13-08, 06:33 PM	I think someone has tried converting VOP's benefits into an equivalent gp cost. You could try searching for it, then matching your average PC's wealth to the appropriate lv. For example, say your PC's wealth at lv21 is around 500,000gp (say), which corresponds to the estimated wealth benefit provided by VOP at lv16 (hypothetically, I am just pulling these numbers out of thin air). So you reference the bonuses granted by VOP at lv16 and use those. Thanks Rune! You are wise and helpful as always. I don't really know how much wealth the party has accumulated. I have a better idea of what sort of bonuses everyone has to various and sundry: most party members have a +6 enhancement bonus to what they consider to be the most important ability score; most are about to have a +5 inherent bonus to the same score (all but the monk got books recently and have been reading them slowly as the days go by); most have +4 or +5 enhancement bonuses; I think most of the weapon users have a +4 or +5 enhancement on the primary weapon; a couple have +2 or +4 enhancement bonuses to a secondary ability score, and a couple have +1 or +3 enhancement bonuses to natural armor. Of course that doesn't really begin to cover all their magic items, but some, like their staff of life and their newly-minted staff of revivify and mass heal benefits the whole party, including the monk. The monk though too has many other abilities garnered from his vow bonus feats and other vow items. We so far haven't had a major combat so it's been hard to tell where he stands versus, say, the half-celestial melee specialist. So far there hasn't been any appreciable difference and frankly, whether I allow him to use ECL or class level probably isn't going to make that huge a difference in his combat capabilities at 21st level. I think, for instance, that he'd get an additional +2 on attack and damage rolls. A difference like that means a great deal at 1st or 2nd level, but no so much at 21st. That actually sort of inclines me in the direction of letting him use ECL with the vow. There's one strange wrinkle that would come from allowing him to use his ECL instead of class level. He's reached an ECL of 21 now, but there are no benefits beyond 20th. I've told him that I'll create an Epic Vow of Poverty feat that will continue the periodic benefits (various bonuses primarily), but he can't take it until he gets 21 class levels at an ECL of 25. So if I use his ECL for the vow, he'll get nothing at ECLs 21-24 and then suddenly at ECL 25 he'd get the benefits of the epic vow for levels 21-25. That inclines me toward using class level with the vow. What do you think? :)
runestar 03-13-08, 07:32 PM	I've told him that I'll create an Epic Vow of Poverty feat that will continue the periodic benefits (various bonuses primarily), but he can't take it until he gets 21 class levels at an ECL of 25. So if I use his ECL for the vow, he'll get nothing at ECLs 21-24 and then suddenly at ECL 25 he'd get the benefits of the epic vow for levels 21-25. That inclines me toward using class level with the vow. What do you think? Why the sudden jump in VOP benefits?:confused: There might be an epic VOP progression somewhere, maybe in the epic boards?
JulesCARV 03-13-08, 07:47 PM	If you're using NPC wealth levels instead of PC wealth levels, then I think the best approach is to use the ECL, but subtract something from ECL to bring it into line with NPC wealth levels. In short, Vow of Poverty should benefit at approximately the same level that a character with expected levels of wealth would gain the amount of wealth that your non-VoP characters have in practice. E.g., using made-up examples, if a level 10 normal wealth character is expected to have 60,000 gp (not from the actual table), and your level (ECL) 15 character typically have around 60,000 gp of gear, then the Vow of Poverty benefits should be at around what a 10th level VoP character would receive in a normal campaign. In practice, if your characters approximately have NPC gear values, this roughly means... Levels 1-3: no penalty (NPC gear values are actually higher than PC expected wealth at levels 1 and 2) Levels 4-5: -1 level penalty to VoP level. Levels 6-7: -2 level penalty to VoP benefits Levels 8-10: -3 level penalty to VoP benefits Levels 11-15: -4 level penalty to VoP benefits Levels 16-20: -5 level penalty to VoP benefits:
Thorsbjorn 03-13-08, 07:48 PM	Why the sudden jump in VOP benefits?:confused: There might be an epic VOP progression somewhere, maybe in the epic boards? The sudden jump would come from the fact that you can't get an epic feat until the number of your hit dice, not your ECL, gets to 21. So with an LA of +4 he can't get his first epic feat until he reaches ECL 25. If you're using NPC wealth levels instead of PC wealth levels, then I think the best approach is to use the ECL, but subtract something from ECL to bring it into line with NPC wealth levels. In short, Vow of Poverty should benefit at approximately the same level that a character with expected levels of wealth would gain the amount of wealth that your non-VoP characters have in practice. E.g., using made-up examples, if a level 10 normal wealth character is expected to have 60,000 gp (not from the actual table), and your level (ECL) 15 character typically have around 60,000 gp of gear, then the Vow of Poverty benefits should be at around what a 10th level VoP character would receive in a normal campaign. In practice, if your characters approximately have NPC gear values, this roughly means... Levels 1-3: no penalty (NPC gear values are actually higher than PC expected wealth at levels 1 and 2) Levels 4-5: -1 level penalty to VoP level. Levels 6-7: -2 level penalty to VoP benefits Levels 8-10: -3 level penalty to VoP benefits Levels 11-15: -4 level penalty to VoP benefits Levels 16-20: -5 level penalty to VoP benefits: We he's ECL 21, with an LA of +4, so under your proposal he'd be even worse off with ECL -5 (-6 for 21st) = 16 (or 15) than his current actual class level of 17. I'm certainly not going to penalize him further than that.
nameneeded 03-14-08, 02:08 AM	I myself prefer the HD progression. But that not why I'm here. I think this may help in your epic quest. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=554563&highlight=Epic+VoP
Thorsbjorn 03-14-08, 11:25 AM	I myself prefer the HD progression. But that not why I'm here. I think this may help in your epic quest. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=554563&highlight=Epic+VoP I happened to read that when he originally posted it. Shortly thereafter the player of the monk sent me a link to it. The player sent me the link once again last weekend. You didn't know any of that, so thanks for giving it to me. :D