Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Rouge 07-02-07, 11:13 AM	Ive been playing NWN a bit, and it uses v.3 rules. There you can take the wonderful feat called Epic Doge. I was wondering: Is ED in 3.5? I havnt found it yet. Please:help:
Tempest Stormwind 07-02-07, 11:16 AM	Ive been playing NWN a bit, and it uses v.3 rules. There you can take the wonderful feat called Epic Doge. I was wondering: Is ED in 3.5? I havnt found it yet. Please:help: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicDodge Epic rules have only hastily been updated to 3.5. Furthermore, NWN's adaptation of several abilities is a little... odd. Spring Attack, for instance, in the pen-and-paper game lets you move both before and after an attack, which is the biggest reason people take it (the fact that this particular movement doesn't provoke AoOs is gravy). In NWN, it's "You aren't subject to AoOs from movement, period.". Epic Dodge is similarly changed: in the original, you dodge the first attack from your dodge target, but in NWN, you dodge the first attack, period. While I don't mind some of their adaptations (like Spellcraft providing a +1 save against spells for every 5 ranks of it you have), there's a few that just suck. (It says a lot that the fastest way to beat the single-player game is to play as a monk -- because of the increased movement speed (and the robe with always-on 3.0 haste).)
runestar 07-02-07, 10:10 PM	Spring Attack, for instance, in the pen-and-paper game lets you move both before and after an attack, which is the biggest reason people take it (the fact that this particular movement doesn't provoke AoOs is gravy). In NWN, it's "You aren't subject to AoOs from movement, period.". It pretty much serves the same purpose. In NWN, if you want to spring attack, you will have to make the movements manually and actually go through the motions. You don't just press a key, and your character springs forward and back automatically. Thus, the benefit of being immune to AoOs from moving would suffice.:)
Tempest Stormwind 07-02-07, 10:15 PM	It pretty much serves the same purpose. In NWN, if you want to spring attack, you will have to make the movements manually and actually go through the motions. You don't just press a key, and your character springs forward and back automatically. Thus, the benefit of being immune to AoOs from moving would suffice.:) Incidentally, the steps they make are 5' steps and don't provoke AoOs. It's disengaging and continuing to run that do that. It's still movement, so you never play a dwarven defender, but it's not more than a 5' step.
pupilofyah 07-03-07, 12:33 PM	and here i thought this was a sialis add.... i havent play dnd in a formate other than PnP that i liked how is NWN?
NoldorForce 07-03-07, 12:55 PM	NWN is loose. It's not as bad as Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (just another hack-and-slash thing), but there are certain key differences. -AoE casting really hurts. It takes you a few seconds to cast the spell...and then a few more for it to travel to the destination. I've often outrun Fireballs because of this. -As above, there's this bizarre mechanic where you're forced to take 5'-steps every so often. Which makes Dwarven Defenders useless. -There is no tactical utility for the standard-action attack, considering that you automatically start a full attack when in range if able. -3.0 Haste. -Tripping doesn't exist, but Knockdown does, and it's really mean. How would you like to guarantee that your target can do nothing for round after round, as long as you can hit him on the first attack of your full attack? That's how it works.
ArcTan 07-03-07, 03:53 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicDodge Epic rules have only hastily been updated to 3.5. Furthermore, NWN's adaptation of several abilities is a little... odd. Spring Attack, for instance, in the pen-and-paper game lets you move both before and after an attack, which is the biggest reason people take it (the fact that this particular movement doesn't provoke AoOs is gravy). In NWN, it's "You aren't subject to AoOs from movement, period.". Epic Dodge is similarly changed: in the original, you dodge the first attack from your dodge target, but in NWN, you dodge the first attack, period. That's because it's a computer game whose user interface requires you to attack an opponent by clicking on it. There *is* no way in the game to designate a Spring Attack by clicking on the opponent and clicking on where you want to end your movement, and trying to make it work that way would make the interface incredibly clunky. So would having some kind of interface for declaring whom you're using Dodge against every combat round.
ArcTan 07-03-07, 03:55 PM	NWN is loose. It's not as bad as Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (just another hack-and-slash thing), but there are certain key differences. -AoE casting really hurts. It takes you a few seconds to cast the spell...and then a few more for it to travel to the destination. I've often outrun Fireballs because of this. -As above, there's this bizarre mechanic where you're forced to take 5'-steps every so often. Which makes Dwarven Defenders useless. -There is no tactical utility for the standard-action attack, considering that you automatically start a full attack when in range if able. -3.0 Haste. -Tripping doesn't exist, but Knockdown does, and it's really mean. How would you like to guarantee that your target can do nothing for round after round, as long as you can hit him on the first attack of your full attack? That's how it works. 3.0 Haste isn't actually a "difference", since NWN is built on 3.0 rules. Knockdown, similarly, is something that's legitimate D&D 3.0 rules, though I can't recall precisely how it worked or how it differed from NWN. (My impression was not very much. There's a reason these things changed for 3.5, after all.)
Tempest Stormwind 07-03-07, 04:00 PM	That's because it's a computer game whose user interface requires you to attack an opponent by clicking on it. There *is* no way in the game to designate a Spring Attack by clicking on the opponent and clicking on where you want to end your movement, and trying to make it work that way would make the interface incredibly clunky. So would having some kind of interface for declaring whom you're using Dodge against every combat round. Well, not really. Hold a button down and set waypoints by clicking would have worked. ALT wasn't used in NWN, if I recall correctly (CTRL and SHIFT were used to access different shortcut bars). Click opponent, click other area, your character moves, attacks, then immediately withdraws. This also would have easily allowed target chaining for optimal Cleave use (or potentially even the Dervish Dance!), and could have more easily enabled certain types of spells (like multi-targeting Magic Missile or related spells, using waypoints to indicate where each missile went; without using waypoints it would act as a single-target spell). I do like how they did Dodge, though. In almost every circumstance you want to dodge the fellow in your face.
NoldorForce 07-03-07, 05:02 PM	Knockdown, similarly, is something that's legitimate D&D 3.0 rules, though I can't recall precisely how it worked or how it differed from NWN. (My impression was not very much. There's a reason these things changed for 3.5, after all.)I don't recall hearing of any Knockdown mechanic. There was the Knock-Down feat...but that gave you free trip attempts on your heavy-hitting attacks. NWN Knockdown, in contrast, had you making an attack roll (modified for size like trip checks) against the opponent's Discipline roll. And very few critters actually have skill points in Discipline (a NWN-exclusive skill). So you were pretty much guaranteed to have it function as long as you kept reapplying it round after round. (Not hard.) And NWN Knockdown didn't simply inflict the prone status on the target...instead, it made said target inoperable for the round. On a high-powered MMO for NWN, there's one boss (Kutalch) with tens of thousands of hit points that's intended to be killed at ~20th level. (At this point, the weapons alone would do ~50 damage, so this wasn't too bad.) It was a pain beating him up, requiring successive Heal potions (another difference, by the way). Unless you spammed Knockdown, in which case you just had to be patient before he died.
Joseph_Silver 07-03-07, 09:11 PM	NWN1 and NWN2 might not be true to P&P, but it's the closest we've got. There's a big difference between describing what you're doing to the DM and actually seeing it happen on screen. In the end, D&D is about roleplaying. If you play with a DM in NWN1 or NWN2, you can do pretty much anything you can do in P&P. For example, if you want to cast Teleport, you simply tell them DM and then he removes one of your 5th-level spells spells and teleports you to your destination. He can even make make a d% roll to see if the spell works correctly.
bigbythewise 07-03-07, 10:19 PM	There is a PC game with far more better (best to date) implementation of PnP rules. It's called Greyhawk:The Temple of Elemental Evil. Turn-based combat. Tripping, charging, coup de grace, ready actions, feinting, efficient counterspelling and much more... Amazing graphics and animations. Classic good old isometric view. And mostly important. It's without homebrew nonsense spells, feats and the other stuff as in NWN/NWN2. Remember Isaac Missile Storm? Nice one. But one thing that absolutely knocked me over in NWN2. Shadow creatures who were using knockdown. :o)
Tempest Stormwind 07-03-07, 10:38 PM	There is a PC game with far more better (best to date) implementation of PnP rules. It's called Greyhawk:The Temple of Elemental Evil. Turn-based combat. Tripping, charging, coup de grace, ready actions, feinting, efficient counterspelling and much more... Amazing graphics and animations. Classic good old isometric view.It is a great implementation. It's also not multiplayer. NWN was designed as multiplayer from the outset. That's why it isn't turn-based. Incidentally, D&D was designed as multiplayer from the outset.And mostly important. It's without homebrew nonsense spells, feats and the other stuff as in NWN/NWN2.NWN actually had exactly TWO homebrew spells -- the two Isaac's Missile Storm spells (the only two spells in the game to target randomly). Every other one was drawn from the core books or some Forgettable Realms source or other (typically Magic of Faerun, but they dug around for others). Several of those spells have since been reprinted in the Spell Compendium, occasionally with upgrades. They did take liberties in implementing some of the spells (notably the summons and any spell that has a variety of options, a la Polymorph and Shadow Conjuration), but the spells themselves were not homebrew barring the two exceptions I already noted.
bigbythewise 07-03-07, 11:36 PM	It is a great implementation. It's also not multiplayer. NWN was designed as multiplayer from the outset. That's why it isn't turn-based. Incidentally, D&D was designed as multiplayer from the outset.NWN actually had exactly TWO homebrew spells -- the two Isaac's Missile Storm spells (the only two spells in the game to target randomly). Every other one was drawn from the core books or some Forgettable Realms source or other (typically Magic of Faerun, but they dug around for others). Several of those spells have since been reprinted in the Spell Compendium, occasionally with upgrades. What about Shadow shield spell? Maybe that they were only two, but that was enough to me. First NWN wasn't multiplay designed from the outset, at least not primary designed. Everyone knows that D&D is about multiplaying, but i spoke about classic PnP adventure converted to a PC singleplayer game. And we can argue all the day about that developing a multiplayer game should automatically exclude turn-based combat.
Lotus Crane 07-04-07, 07:23 PM	And we can argue all the day about that developing a multiplayer game should automatically exclude turn-based combat. Gunbound (http://www.softnyx.net/) or online Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28board_game%29), anyone?
ArcTan 07-06-07, 02:07 AM	It is a great implementation. It's also not multiplayer. NWN was designed as multiplayer from the outset. That's why it isn't turn-based. NWN *is* turn-based. The turns play out in real time, but nothing stops you from pausing the game repeatedly to designate your actions for the next turn. (You can even do it in multiplayer, provided the other players let you.) The game still lines everything up turn-by-turn for you. NWN actually had exactly TWO homebrew spells -- the two Isaac's Missile Storm spells (the only two spells in the game to target randomly). Every other one was drawn from the core books or some Forgettable Realms source or other (typically Magic of Faerun, but they dug around for others). Several of those spells have since been reprinted in the Spell Compendium, occasionally with upgrades. They did take liberties in implementing some of the spells (notably the summons and any spell that has a variety of options, a la Polymorph and Shadow Conjuration), but the spells themselves were not homebrew barring the two exceptions I already noted. Notably, spells like polymorph are a great deal weaker thanks to having only a small menu of subpar options to pick from rather than a huge list of everything in the Monster Manual.