Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Phantom Flan Flinger 07-12-07, 03:14 PM	The feat allows you to add your Sneak Attack damage to a successful crit. So if I crit something that has concealment, do I still get to apply the extra damage? Someone suggested (in passing, this has not yet been an issue in game and neither of us have dug into the rules in depth) that the existence of a miss chance would mean I couldn't use the feat. I thought the whole point of the feat was to give you Sneak Attack damage in situations where your attack wouldn't otherwise qualify as a Sneak Attack - which would include concealment. If I can hit it well enough to crit, I should be able to hit it well enough to aim low and twist the knife. Who is right?
Egres 07-12-07, 03:26 PM	So if I crit something that has concealment, do I still get to apply the extra damage? Nope. The limit still stands: A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. No matter how you would obtain the SA: you can't get around the concealment limit via Telling Blow. The feat merely adds another way to obtain a sneak attack: it doesn' t remove its limits. If I can hit it well enough to crit, I should be able to hit it well enough to aim low and twist the knife. By your reasoning, even without the Telling Blow feat you should be able to SA a concealed opponent, since critical hits aren't negated by the concealment.
Hsien 07-12-07, 03:29 PM	Edited: After re-reading concealment and cehcking FAQ. All Precision based damage ( Sneak/Sudden/Skirmish ) is negated by concealment, that would also prevent the Precision damage being triggered by Telling Blow.
Nezkrul 07-12-07, 03:52 PM	ok, what about the True Strike spell? Does a critical hit caused with the swing including a True Strike spell allow you to sneak attack someone with concealment? Or does their "having" concealment still negate it, even if it doesn't affect your aim?
Hsien 07-12-07, 04:45 PM	ok, what about the True Strike spell? Does a critical hit caused with the swing including a True Strike spell allow you to sneak attack someone with concealment? Or does their "having" concealment still negate it, even if it doesn't affect your aim? True Strike, iirc, only gives a +20 bonus to your to hit roll. True Strike does not negate Concealment Therefore True Strike has no impact upon miss chances caused by Concealment, or Precision damage negated by Concealment Now if you had a spell/feat that negated the benefits of concealment; that would be another matter entirely.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 07-12-07, 04:58 PM	Hsien - that's exactly what I didn't want to hear but unfortunately has just the right the ring of correctness and finality to it. This is SA damage without any doubt, and if SA damage is negated by concealment then that's me stuffed. Thank you. :) I shall think of you fondly while I'm bleeding out on the plane of shadows next Monday... Egres - that's the argument my friend used, and that's when I got myself confused about the distinction between the feat giving you "another way to obtain a Sneak Attack" (which is not what it says) and the feat allowing you to add Sneak Attack damage (which is what it says, although granted it doesn't specifically go on to say "despite the attack not having been a Sneak Attack"). I admit this has the ring of nitpicking to me even as I type it, but that's what rules debates are I guess. My thought process to explain the distinction between the two went along these lines: At the point when you attack, you are either in a position to attempt an SA or you're not, based on the circumstances of your intended victim (flat-footed etc). You can't do one by accident, the whole point is that they're deliberate and planned. Then you roll the dice to see if you hit. It doesn't seem right to re-write history to redescribe the form that the attack took just because you subsequently rolled a threat and confirmed it. Whereas getting a lucky hit (crit) and knowing how to capitalise on it by twisting the knife (adding sneak attack damage) - that would work. Although I might just have a peculiar way of visualising my character's actions. :blush: I'm actually quite glad that the line of reasoning has been made irrelevent by Hsien's answer, now I think about it. It's too woolly - I can imagine my friend and I going round the houses for hours and still not agreeing. You're right that's a weak argument of mine that you quoted btw. I really must learn to stop typing a sentence or two before I want to. The same is doubtless true of my third paragraph above.
WolfHati 07-12-07, 06:28 PM	You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target. Actually, true strike does negate miss chance from concealment.
DinwathSereglin 07-12-07, 09:27 PM	So telling blow only allows you to add SA damage when you would already get SA damage against a target? Am I missing something?
runestar 07-12-07, 10:16 PM	So telling blow only allows you to add SA damage when you would already get SA damage against a target? Am I missing something? Probably. You normally have to be flanking or catching your foe flat-footed to be able to deal sneak attack. Telling blow now lets you deal SA on a crit, without the need for a flanker or feint. Useful against barbs with uncanny dodge. But normal limitations, such as the foe being immune to crits still apply.
Nezkrul 07-12-07, 10:18 PM	So telling blow only allows you to add SA damage when you would already get SA damage against a target? Am I missing something? it allows you to add your sneak attack damage dice to your damage roll if you confirm a critical hit and would not otherwise be able to deal sneak attack damage (ie the target is not flat footed, or not flanked, or not denied his dexterity bonus for any reason, or is able to defend himself normally from your attack) it is essentially another requirement you can "meet" to add sneak attack damage.
DinwathSereglin 07-13-07, 01:48 AM	If it is a ranged attack, does it have to be within 30 ft?
Egres 07-13-07, 08:27 AM	If it is a ranged attack, does it have to be within 30 ft? Yes, of course.
Egres 07-13-07, 08:30 AM	Egres - that's the argument my friend used, and that's when I got myself confused about the distinction between the feat giving you "another way to obtain a Sneak Attack" (which is not what it says) and the feat allowing you to add Sneak Attack damage (which is what it says, although granted it doesn't specifically go on to say "despite the attack not having been a Sneak Attack"). This is the Sage answer: The feat simply adds another criteria that “activates” your sneak attack or skirmish damage; (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070129a)
damienroy77 07-27-07, 08:30 AM	I thought TB only allowed you to add the damage of SA, not to actually do a sneak attack. Which is a big difference. The inadequacy in the wording leads to two interpretations: - Interpretation 1: The feat gives a new opportunity to deal sneak attacks. The feat allows the user to deal sneak attacks on flanking, critical hits and when the target is denied his dex bonus. - Interpretation 2: The feat only refers to sneak attack as a mean to calculate extra damage. When dealing a critical hit the player does not count as making a sneak attack but deals extra damage (which happen to be identical to the damage dealt during a typical SA.) Consequences: If interpretation1 is used, typical limitations/advantages for sneak attacks must be used: - miss chance denies the telling blow damage - you can’t use telling blow if you are further away from your target than 30 feet - any extra damages/abilities inflicted by magic items, poisons, spells or special qualities equipment which trigger on sneak attack, also trigger on telling blow - the ability some rogues have (usually through feats) to forfeit sneak attack damage for debilitating effects (crippling the target) can be used on telling blow - telling blow does not work if the wielder is blind - telling blow deals lethal damage when the weapon is not a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, even if the weapon was used to deal non-lethal damage - telling blow cannot deal damage while striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach - telling blow cannot be paired with sneak attack, meaning you can’t deal a sneak attack AND a telling blow. If interpretation2 is used, typical limitations/advantages for sneak attacks do not apply: - creatures immune to sneak attacks may not be immune to the telling blow damage (note: Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks, but the opposite might not be true) - miss chance does not deny the damage of telling blow - you can use telling blow at any distance - only extra damages inflicted by magic items, spells or special qualities equipment which trigger on sneak attack, trigger on telling blow. Abilities, poisons, effects like stagger, sicken and such do not apply to telling blow - the ability some rogues have (usually through feats) to forfeit sneak attack damage for debilitating effects (crippling the target) can’t be used on telling blow - telling blow works if the wielder is blind - telling blow deals the same type of damage as the weapon, not “precision damage” and therefore can be non-lethal - telling blow can deal damage while striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach - telling blow can be paired with sneak attack, meaning you can deal a sneak attack AND a telling blow. So we seem to go by the sage advie and theory1 is correct?
Nezkrul 07-27-07, 12:40 PM	So we seem to go by the sage advie and theory1 is correct? Yes, it is less game-breaking that way and much easier to remember.
Hsien 07-27-07, 01:13 PM	The inadequacy in the wording leads to two interpretations: - Interpretation 1: The feat gives a new opportunity to deal sneak attacks. The feat allows the user to deal sneak attacks on flanking, critical hits and when the target is denied his dex bonus. Consequences: If interpretation1 is used, typical limitations/advantages for sneak attacks must be used: - you can’t use telling blow if you are further away from your target than 30 feet - any extra damages/abilities inflicted by magic items, poisons, spells or special qualities equipment which trigger on sneak attack, also trigger on telling blow - the ability some rogues have (usually through feats) to forfeit sneak attack damage for debilitating effects (crippling the target) can be used on telling blow Interpretion 1, but there are a few points that /have been debated with no 100% clear concensus. ~ 30' Rule, is generally accepted although TB does not specify. Keep in mind that TB uses the "Precision damage" dice pool and may not be restricted to the range qualifiers for the various sneak/skirmish/sudden attacks, since most other quaifiers are ignored. My group uses a houserule of 30' or the first range increment, whichever is greater. ~ extra damage triggered by items etc...depends on the item description. Depends on the trigger description, imo. Ex:Weapon property "deadly precision" indicates that it adds 2d6 and triggers on a successful sneak attack. TB is not a sneak attack, it is bonus damage with a "confirmed critical" trigger that adds any precison damage dice. Therefore "deadly precision" would not trigger with TB. ~Ambush feats to forfeit sneak to get other affects. I believe I recall seeing this ansered in a Dragon, Sage Advise, that indicated that since the ambush/sacrifice of sneak dice has to be declared beforehand, that they cannot be used with TB, since TB is determined only after the attack and after a roll to confirm crit, therefore the ambush effect cannot be pre-determined with TB.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 07-27-07, 01:40 PM	Ah, you get all the disadvantages of Sneak Attack but none of the benefits. :( It's still worth taking, but it doesn't really widen the SA net like I'd assumed it would. I'd expected to become more useful than I'd have otherwise been in certain non-SA situations e.g. where there is concealment, or where the bad guys are atop a ledge >30' away. So what it actually does is "just" saves me from having to move around to set up flanking etc - which has proved to be a huge advantage to me so far. Should I live long enough to have more than one attack per round, it will be even more of a benefit. Is there anything cool I can use it for that I haven't thought of?
Hsien 07-27-07, 02:17 PM	As with most things, imo it depends on character make-up and what type of campaign you're playing in. My MasterThrower enjoys the damage boost that TB provides. Would be good with rapier ( keen or Imp crit ) or any other good threat range melee weapon. I also think it's a pretty good option for characters that also have more then one type of "precision damage" class; like Scout/Rogue.
damienroy77 07-27-07, 03:07 PM	Interpretion 1, but there are a few points that /have been debated with no 100% clear concensus. ~ 30' Rule, is generally accepted although TB does not specify. Keep in mind that TB uses the "Precision damage" dice pool and may not be restricted to the range qualifiers for the various sneak/skirmish/sudden attacks, since most other quaifiers are ignored. My group uses a houserule of 30' or the first range increment, whichever is greater. ~ extra damage triggered by items etc...depends on the item description. Depends on the trigger description, imo. Ex:Weapon property "deadly precision" indicates that it adds 2d6 and triggers on a successful sneak attack. TB is not a sneak attack, it is bonus damage with a "confirmed critical" trigger that adds any precison damage dice. Therefore "deadly precision" would not trigger with TB. ~Ambush feats to forfeit sneak to get other affects. I believe I recall seeing this ansered in a Dragon, Sage Advise, that indicated that since the ambush/sacrifice of sneak dice has to be declared beforehand, that they cannot be used with TB, since TB is determined only after the attack and after a roll to confirm crit, therefore the ambush effect cannot be pre-determined with TB. Thanks for you answer, I can totally see why forfeiting sneak to get other affects when you are required to call it before you attack does not work, unless of course you declare it before any attack... then it would make sense. however if you restrict TB to sneak attack restrictions; on the ground that the sage ruled it wasn't just sneak attack damage but it as an actual new opportunity to use SA, then why can't you use the abilities and benefit of a SA? To me it seems that two arguments contradict each others: => you can't benefit of deadly precision because it's not a sneak attack, just sneak attack damage => concealment denies TB because it's not just sneak attack damage, it's an actual sneak attack Understand that I don't have a problem with your conclusion, I can even see the logic or the reason why sometimes people tend to limit or allow such and such but there is no consistency in the reasons. Thanks for helping me clearing up this obscure point of rule.
Hsien 07-27-07, 03:55 PM	As always check w/ your DM when there is a ruling concern. I think the confusion is trying to think solely in terms of "sneak attack" or "sneak attack damage" I've found that thinking in terms of "precision damage" is a lot easier as it makes it more generalized and better reflects what TB does. I look at TB being similar to a character that has multiple "precision damage types, such as a Scout/Rogue. Both classes provide a type of Precision damage but the triggers are different. If he gets flank/sneak attack; he doesn't get to add in any Skirmish damage unless the conditions for skirmish were also met. If he meets Skirmish requirements, but not sneak, then only gets Skirmish damage. Easy enough to understand. TB has the advantage that it would use both sneak/skirmish damage for that character as they are both in the "precison" damage pool, but TB depends on luck of dice and not tactics to trigger. Deadly Precison is not part of the characters "precision" damage pool, it is a part of the weapon and only triggered on a successful sneak attack, as my understanding of weapon property decription, so would not trigger on a successful skirmish or telling blow. Concealment, that is an external factor that prevents precision damage from occurring, so affects all precison damage events (sneak/skirmish/sudden/tb). I had a chance to read up on True Strike, and it does indicate that it negates the penalties of concealment. So that could be one way around concealment.
damienroy77 07-27-07, 04:48 PM	Ok I'll be back home on Sunday night when I will re-read telling blow. You seem to insist on the "precision damage" rule. I don't remember if it is worded like this or if it is your personal interpretation. I can understand the logic of your thoughts though, I'm not sure however if it is an interpretation or proper reading of the rule. The phantom has a keen falchion, and a lot of feats aimed at increasing her chance to strike a critical so the nitpicking is important for us. The DM is happy at the moment to see where our research leads to. Once we'll have a clear: - the rule clearly says that <insert what we all agree on> - the rule doesn't specify <X> or specifies <Y> - consequences are <XX> then he will make his call, we're just helping him to gather all the FACTS, again which is why we scramble for details, and a lot nitpicking. The subjective and personal "it's more balanced this way" decision is not ours, it's the DM's call. The purpose of this thread is to bring several people with different interpretations of the rule and narrow it down to the fair and possible interpretations. thanks for your contribution.
Hsien 07-27-07, 05:42 PM	NP, I always like a good debate..heck even a bad debate can be fun at times. Take the Manyshot feat description or Master Thrower ( CoW errata ) for Palm Throw ( similar to Manyshot ) that indicate only one instance of precision-based damage is provided. As far as my use of "Precision damage" goes, thats something WoTC has used to help describe sneak/sudden/skirmish damage. An since TB covers all 3 areas, it helps me to also just think of it in that larger term. Check out the FAQ, page 35/36 ( What is precsicion-based damage in relation to manysho ) they review what is/is not considered "precison-based damage."
damienroy77 07-29-07, 08:42 AM	Ok finally home opened the book, and though I can't quote it all here, telling blow only specifies that: "When you score a critical hit"... nothing later on comes to contradict in the feat description that the feat will not activate on some critical hits. None of the usual skirmish or SA caveat. The feat description even goes as far as telling us that you can't multiply this damage by the weapon multiplier... a given for sneak attacks, so why bring it back if it is an actual sneak attack? Later on it specifies that you "deal your skirmish or SA damage" on top of critical damage. Nowhere does it specify that this damage is precision based. I can see your logic that since it's skirmish/SA damage it might have been poorly worded and the intent could have been to actually activate an actual skirmish/SA... this is a possibility (not a fact unfortunately) reinforced by the sage statement (link is here: The feat simply adds another criteria that “activates” your sneak attack or skirmish damage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070129a)). All good here, but when you start adding limitation to the Sneak attack stating that some benefit/limitation of the SA wouldn't apply I am wondering why. Is it an interpretation, or dare I say a house rule designed to limit the power of telling blow? Having not tested the power of TB with cheese combos and other advantages which come with SA, I can't really comment on this. Strict reading of the feat would even allow on flanking-critical = 2x Sneak attack, which the sage (wisely) ruled against, and I can understand why. Now I'm open to any post pointing me in the right direction and find out where I missed a rule.
Hsien 07-30-07, 01:36 PM	Overall I'd say we are viewing TB the same way; what I'm not sure what specific issues/ruling are of concern. I'll sum up my views. of TB limits etc.. Only w/in Range 30' Generally accepted viewpoint on forums, but not noted in feat so debatable. My group uses a houserule variation; greater of 30' or 1st range increment, as a compromise. Deadly Precision Does not activate in my opinion; as the weapon property description is not met by TB. Weapon property specifies the extra damage is triggered on a successful sneak attack IMO "successful sneak attack" and the TB feat that “activates” your sneak attack or skirmish damage ona critical are two very different things. Concealment Concealment prevents sneak/skirmish damage. By my understanding of the RAW, this would prevent sneak/skirmish damage triggered by TB
damienroy77 07-31-07, 09:07 AM	ok thanks... unfortunately the discussion became accademic when we played last night the second chapter of the cormyr campaign and all died suddenly killed by a crocodile-monster against which we stood no chance :(