Elusive Target feat and Improved Uncanny Dodge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elusive Target feat and Improved Uncanny Dodge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowfax7
01-03-08, 06:55 PM Since a 5th level Barbarian can no longer be flanked (due to Improved Uncanny Dodge), can he make use of the 2nd tactical maneuver (Diverting Defense) of the Elusive Target tactical feat ??
Nightshade
01-03-08, 07:17 PM No, because Elusive Target requires you to be 6th level before you have it. ;)

Improved Uncanny dodge means that your enemies do not benefit from the flanking bonus to hit you and rogues would not gain the sneak attack damage (unless they are 4 levels higher than you). I think the feat would still take effect because they are still in a flanking position, they just don't gain the advantages of flanking.
Shadowfax7
01-04-08, 06:58 AM However the problem is that Improved Uncanny Dodge states that "At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked".

And Diverting Defense states that "to use this maneuver, you must be flanked".
Orchomenos
01-04-08, 10:32 AM When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.
Bolds mine. Just to express that no class feature can prevent two opponents from being on opposite sides of you. They just do not benefit from the +2 bonus.
kalstrand
01-04-08, 06:16 PM Now I would let Elusive Target work if there are enemies in flanking positions but as written if you have Improved Uncanny Dodge you can not be flanked and therefore you could not use any ability that requries you to be flanked.
Shadowfax7
01-05-08, 09:06 AM but as written if you have Improved Uncanny Dodge you can not be flanked and therefore you could not use any ability that requries you to be flanked. This is how I am interpreting the RAW.

I understand that I can rule as I want and allow it to work, but does anyone not interpret the RAW as above.
Pentagram
01-05-08, 01:09 PM As far as I can read the rules, "flanked" can either refer to the physical position of being flanked (i.e. having threating opponents at opposite sides) or the mechanical position of being flanked (i.e. having an flanking opponent being able to apply certain effects due to the position). Someone with improved uncanny dodge can definitely be in a flanked position physically, it's just that opponents gain no advantage from it.

The Elusive Target feat should be understood to refer to "flanked" as the physical position, so someone with improved uncanny dodge can still use it.

Certainly, a strict reading of the ability and the feat could lead to the conclusion that a 5th level barbarian can't be flanked, and can't use the Elusive Target feat (the diverting defense part of it, at least) as it requires the character to be flanked...but if you go with such an interpretation, a 5th level barbarian can't move into a position between two opponents because that would cause him to be flanked too (PHB 153) and he can't be in such a position.

It's quite clear that diverting defense means that the character dodges to the side and lets one opponent run the other through. Claiming that the character is unable to do that due to being able to react to opponents at either side om him seems quite silly, RAW or not.
Shadowfax7
01-07-08, 07:04 AM Any opinions as to pentagram's interpretation of the RAW with 2 "meanings" for flanked ?

I understand the opinion on the RAI.
kuonji
01-07-08, 07:08 AM Any opinions as to pentagram's interpretation of the RAW with 2 "meanings" for flanked ?

I understand the opinion on the RAI.

This makes the most sense.
jaelis
01-07-08, 02:11 PM I think Pentagram is right.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 01-03-08, 06:55 PM	Since a 5th level Barbarian can no longer be flanked (due to Improved Uncanny Dodge), can he make use of the 2nd tactical maneuver (Diverting Defense) of the Elusive Target tactical feat ??
Nightshade 01-03-08, 07:17 PM	No, because Elusive Target requires you to be 6th level before you have it. ;) Improved Uncanny dodge means that your enemies do not benefit from the flanking bonus to hit you and rogues would not gain the sneak attack damage (unless they are 4 levels higher than you). I think the feat would still take effect because they are still in a flanking position, they just don't gain the advantages of flanking.
Shadowfax7 01-04-08, 06:58 AM	However the problem is that Improved Uncanny Dodge states that "At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked". And Diverting Defense states that "to use this maneuver, you must be flanked".
Orchomenos 01-04-08, 10:32 AM	When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner. When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked. Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking. Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus. Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent. Bolds mine. Just to express that no class feature can prevent two opponents from being on opposite sides of you. They just do not benefit from the +2 bonus.
kalstrand 01-04-08, 06:16 PM	Now I would let Elusive Target work if there are enemies in flanking positions but as written if you have Improved Uncanny Dodge you can not be flanked and therefore you could not use any ability that requries you to be flanked.
Shadowfax7 01-05-08, 09:06 AM	but as written if you have Improved Uncanny Dodge you can not be flanked and therefore you could not use any ability that requries you to be flanked. This is how I am interpreting the RAW. I understand that I can rule as I want and allow it to work, but does anyone not interpret the RAW as above.
Pentagram 01-05-08, 01:09 PM	As far as I can read the rules, "flanked" can either refer to the physical position of being flanked (i.e. having threating opponents at opposite sides) or the mechanical position of being flanked (i.e. having an flanking opponent being able to apply certain effects due to the position). Someone with improved uncanny dodge can definitely be in a flanked position physically, it's just that opponents gain no advantage from it. The Elusive Target feat should be understood to refer to "flanked" as the physical position, so someone with improved uncanny dodge can still use it. Certainly, a strict reading of the ability and the feat could lead to the conclusion that a 5th level barbarian can't be flanked, and can't use the Elusive Target feat (the diverting defense part of it, at least) as it requires the character to be flanked...but if you go with such an interpretation, a 5th level barbarian can't move into a position between two opponents because that would cause him to be flanked too (PHB 153) and he can't be in such a position. It's quite clear that diverting defense means that the character dodges to the side and lets one opponent run the other through. Claiming that the character is unable to do that due to being able to react to opponents at either side om him seems quite silly, RAW or not.
Shadowfax7 01-07-08, 07:04 AM	Any opinions as to pentagram's interpretation of the RAW with 2 "meanings" for flanked ? I understand the opinion on the RAI.
kuonji 01-07-08, 07:08 AM	Any opinions as to pentagram's interpretation of the RAW with 2 "meanings" for flanked ? I understand the opinion on the RAI. This makes the most sense.
jaelis 01-07-08, 02:11 PM	I think Pentagram is right.