Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ibonet 04-02-07, 12:34 PM	In Races of the Wild are described some weapons and Armor created by elven races and, essentialy, for elven characters. Among them the elven thinblade, lightblade and courtblade. They are considered Exotic weapons, so, to be proficient with them, you must pick Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. What I don't understand is why an elve, like any other character of whatever race, must pick this feat. Have I missed something? The real question is that I'm thinking to go to Champion of Corellon Larethian PrC, and one prereq is to pick Weapon focus (longsword) or Exotic Weapon proficiency. As an elf the character has longsword proficieny... but has'nt thinblade proficiency? Besides, I can consider that I have focus in Thinblade if I pick Weapon Focus in longsword or rapier. Would'nt it be logical that an elf has the proficiency, as I had in longsword? Perhaps I have really missed something... Another related question. Thinblade is considered a light weapon for finesse feat; but it can be considered a light weapon for a Two weapon fighting feat?
Morgen 04-02-07, 12:48 PM	They're mostly used by elves, but that doens't mean that most elves are using them. That's two seperate ideas. The Longsword is still the staple weapon for elfin kind, those are exotic even for them. The Thinblade is effecitvely a longsword that crits like a rapier and handles like a rapier. You can use weapon finesse on it, but it's not a light weapon so you can say, power attack with it and things like that. (Think of it as finding a chink in your opponents armor and then stabbing them really really hard.) As for the Champion PrC. Take your weapon feats on Longsword and then take Racial Weapon Proficiency for the class.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-02-07, 01:22 PM	Elves don't have proficiency in thinblades for two reasons. One, they were written before thinblades existed, and proficiency in an exotic weapon is a lot more powerful than a martial one. It would be sensible to replace elves' free martial weapon proficiencies with one exotic one, or give them weapon familiarity instead. But it needs to be balanced with four free martial proficiencies.
jaelis 04-02-07, 01:26 PM	Personally, I like to houserule that an elf treats the thinblade and lightblade as martial weapons rather than exotic. Because otherwise martial characters don't get a whole lot out of the race.
Tonil 04-02-07, 01:29 PM	Complete Warrior has a feat ( I do not remember the name) that enables a character to be proficient in all racial exotic weapons for that race. So the one feat would give elves proficiency in all "Elven" exotic weapons. Edit: Or, perhaps Morgen already named the feat I am thinking of....
Fabius Maximus 04-02-07, 02:15 PM	Elves don't have proficiency in thinblades for two reasons. One, they were written before thinblades existed, and proficiency in an exotic weapon is a lot more powerful than a martial one. It would be sensible to replace elves' free martial weapon proficiencies with one exotic one, or give them weapon familiarity instead. But it needs to be balanced with four free martial proficiencies. Seconded.
Shadowhowler 04-02-07, 03:56 PM	I prefer to keep the thin-blade an exotic weapon, even for elves... so I can dip into exotic weapon master PrC later. Yum.
Xaxor 04-02-07, 05:47 PM	The actual feat in Complete Warrior is "Improved Weapon Familiarity." It sucks to go looking for something with the wrong name. The tricky thing about picking up those three weapons is that you also need Weapon Finesse to really use them well. Weapon Focus(Longsword) is easier and cheaper in terms of feats.
Frugal 04-02-07, 10:17 PM	For the campaign I'm working on I'm dumping the free martial profs with longswords and rapiers and going with weapon familiarity with the elven weapons instead. Personally, I prefer the idea of races using their racial weapons (giving orcs familiarity in double axes for this reason too) and I don't really like the idea of free weapon proficiencies, but maybe that's just from the elf monk I saw the min/maxer in my group create, didn't bother to use any melee combat unless he was absolutely forced to, just took it for the WIS bonus to AC to create a crazy archer build. I'm still not sure how I want to handle the bow proficiencies.
Ranger REG 04-03-07, 12:45 AM	The actual feat in Complete Warrior is "Improved Weapon Familiarity." It sucks to go looking for something with the wrong name. The tricky thing about picking up those three weapons is that you also need Weapon Finesse to really use them well. Weapon Focus(Longsword) is easier and cheaper in terms of feats. It may be easier and cheaper, but that doesn't always means it's better for elves.
ibonet 04-03-07, 03:17 AM	Thanks for all the comments. Just to add background, I'm playing a TWF swashbuckler, so, I need 'finessable' weapons, that's why I prefer thinblade to longsword to take Champion of Corellon PrC. Besides, if thinblade is 'finessable' but not light, I supose that it can't be an off-hand weapon. I must take lightblade instead... In the other hand, I like the thin/lightblade flavour for an elf. I think it adds personality to the character. The problem is that I don't hope to find any magical thinblade lost in any dungeon... (our DM is not one sensible to purchasing magical items... I have a hard work in front of me to convince him...)
Ogg 04-03-07, 01:25 PM	Yes, I agree, anytime a racial weapon shows up in a book I add it to the race as a martial weapon if it's exotic. I also extend them to half-bloods (half elves & half orcs). I think it helps bring the half-bloods up a notch since many feel they are slighted.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-03-07, 07:27 PM	Yes, I agree, anytime a racial weapon shows up in a book I add it to the race as a martial weapon if it's exotic. I also extend them to half-bloods (half elves & half orcs). I think it helps bring the half-bloods up a notch since many feel they are slighted. Except that means you are giving Gnomes and Dwarves a free feat- Improved Weapon Familiarity. Races don't get every weapon with their name in it as familiar, just the ones in the PHB. If you want the rest, you take the feat. Now, if you want to give players the option of trading for ONE from the growing list, sure. If you just throw all of them at them for free, you are giving the most powerful races more power, and helping the half-breeds say exactly where they are in your estimation- worse than full-races. Nevermind the fact that there is only one orcish weapon...
StruckingFuggle 04-03-07, 08:19 PM	Except that means you are giving Gnomes and Dwarves a free feat- Improved Weapon Familiarity. Not serious reply: OH NO. Serious reply: ..........so?
Ranger REG 04-03-07, 08:41 PM	Thanks for all the comments. Just to add background, I'm playing a TWF swashbuckler, so, I need 'finessable' weapons, that's why I prefer thinblade to longsword to take Champion of Corellon PrC. Besides, if thinblade is 'finessable' but not light, I supose that it can't be an off-hand weapon. I must take lightblade instead... In the other hand, I like the thin/lightblade flavour for an elf. I think it adds personality to the character. The problem is that I don't hope to find any magical thinblade lost in any dungeon... (our DM is not one sensible to purchasing magical items... I have a hard work in front of me to convince him...) Perhaps, but you're unlikely to find magical elvencraft weapon lying in treasures for you to "upgrade." You're unlikely to find an elven society willing to market their wares as much as US selling their Stealth Fighters through Wal-Mart.
obsidianrose 04-03-07, 09:14 PM	Orcish Shotput, Orcish bendystickthwacky tihngy, orcish double axe. That's 3
Part-Human2 04-04-07, 12:34 AM	... Besides, if thinblade is 'finessable' but not light, I supose that it can't be an off-hand weapon. I must take lightblade instead... .. There is the Oversized Two-weapon fighting feat (CAdv) that treats that off-hand one-handed weapon as a light weapon for reducing penalties.
Bashar42 04-10-07, 10:55 PM	Two things I want to say about this topic: 1. It doesn't make any sense that elves would not be proficient with their elven weapons. I think every race should automatically be proficient with similar type race-weapons to what weapons their class gives them. So an elf rogue would be proficient with all elvish versions of simple weapons, hand x-bow, short bow, short sword, and rapiers... if elvish versions of these weapons exist. Since elves, as a racial bonus, are also proficient with long swords and long bows, this rogue should be proficient with elvish version of these weapons too. 2. Unless your going for a specific build, spending a feat slot on becoming proficient with a SINGLE weapon, is just a total waste. Any sensible player who wants to get as much bang for his buck out of his character, avoids spending a feat on something so trivial. There are so many awesome feats to really improve your character, and so few feat slots, and your going to waste one on learning how to wield exotic_weapon_that_adds_2_damage? I don't think so, "sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here."
Frugal 04-11-07, 08:26 AM	Two things I want to say about this topic: 1. It doesn't make any sense that elves would not be proficient with their elven weapons. I think every race should automatically be proficient with similar type race-weapons to what weapons their class gives them. So an elf rogue would be proficient with all elvish versions of simple weapons, hand x-bow, short bow, short sword, and rapiers... if elvish versions of these weapons exist. Since elves, as a racial bonus, are also proficient with long swords and long bows, this rogue should be proficient with elvish version of these weapons too. I disagree with you slightly, I don't like the idea of automatic proficiency in weapons. But I do think that any race should be familiar with their racial weapons. The way I look at it is that these weapons are in common enough use by that race that anyone trained in martial weapons would be trained in them, but outside of that race their uncommon, and are thus exotic weapons. Yes, this slightly nerfs some elven classes but I see the payoff as being that those who are proficient with martial weapons gain proficiency with 3 really good weapons, and I like the idea that classes that don't train with martial weapons don't receive those proficiencies (still trying to figure out how I want to handle the bow proficiencies).
Bashar42 04-12-07, 05:32 PM	I disagree with you slightly, I don't like the idea of automatic proficiency in weapons. But I do think that any race should be familiar with their racial weapons. The way I look at it is that these weapons are in common enough use by that race that anyone trained in martial weapons would be trained in them, but outside of that race their uncommon, and are thus exotic weapons. Yes, this slightly nerfs some elven classes but I see the payoff as being that those who are proficient with martial weapons gain proficiency with 3 really good weapons, and I like the idea that classes that don't train with martial weapons don't receive those proficiencies (still trying to figure out how I want to handle the bow proficiencies). Please define the difference between "automatic proficiency in" and "familiar with." To me it seams we are in complete agreement. Elves for example should be "familiar with" elf weapons. In game-mechanics terms that means giving them "automatic proficiency" with those weapons as a racial feature.
Frugal 04-12-07, 05:53 PM	Please define the difference between "automatic proficiency in" and "familiar with." To me it seams we are in complete agreement. Elves for example should be "familiar with" elf weapons. In game-mechanics terms that means giving them "automatic proficiency" with those weapons as a racial feature. Weapon familiarity allows them to treat those exotic weapons as martial weapons (see the dwarf or gnome for an example).
Ranger REG 04-12-07, 09:10 PM	To be honest with you, I'm beginning to hate racial weapons. Maybe I'm too Tolkienesque.
Frugal 04-12-07, 09:18 PM	To be honest with you, I'm beginning to hate racial weapons. Maybe I'm too Tolkienesque. I don't know, there's not that many. What bugs me is that they're all exotic so nobody actually uses them.
EpicEvokerElf 04-12-07, 09:42 PM	I don't know, there's not that many. What bugs me is that they're all exotic so nobody actually uses them. Definately. The only racial exotic weapon I've ever seen in play was in a campaign where elves had thin/light-blade proficiency. Now, if there was a feat that gave you proficiency with ALL exotic weapons...
Frugal 04-12-07, 09:46 PM	Definately. The only racial exotic weapon I've ever seen in play was in a campaign where elves had thin/light-blade proficiency. Now, if there was a feat that gave you proficiency with ALL exotic weapons... Well I know there's improved weapon familiarity but I think the only race it'd be worth it for would be elves. For my upcoming campaign I'm tweaking the races so they do get them as weapon familiarities. For elves it's a slight nerf to classes that don't get proficiency with martial weapons but personally I like the idea that classes that don't train with weapons don't get free proficiencies by virtue of their race (still trying to figure out the bow thing though). Not sure what I'll do with dwarves or gnomes though since there are a few more weapons for them now.
Bashar42 04-13-07, 02:31 AM	Weapon familiarity allows them to treat those exotic weapons as martial weapons (see the dwarf or gnome for an example). I see the distinction now. But what about classes/races that are proficient only with specific named martial weapons? They wouldn't benefit? Only those classes who receive "proficient with all martial weapons" would benefit from this change.
Frugal 04-13-07, 08:33 AM	I see the distinction now. But what about classes/races that are proficient only with specific named martial weapons? They wouldn't benefit? Only those classes who receive "proficient with all martial weapons" would benefit from this change. Yes, but that's kind of the point, I don't like that every single member of a race (even a 1st level commoner) gets proficiency with a bunch of martial weapons just by virtue of being a member of that race. Maybe it's just because of the super cheesy elven monk build I saw one of my players using recently; he only took a 1 or 2 level dip into Monk (probably 2 to get the +1 BAB) and it was all so that he got the faster movement and WIS to AC, he never went into melee combat.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-13-07, 11:59 AM	That is what you get when a powergamer does not have a DM that knows the rules better than him. And it also highlights why I think monk should be removed as a class and made a PrC
Tevin Kevlak 04-13-07, 12:21 PM	Yes, but that's kind of the point, I don't like that every single member of a race (even a 1st level commoner) gets proficiency with a bunch of martial weapons just by virtue of being a member of that race. Maybe it's just because of the super cheesy elven monk build I saw one of my players using recently; he only took a 1 or 2 level dip into Monk (probably 2 to get the +1 BAB) and it was all so that he got the faster movement and WIS to AC, he never went into melee combat. It might just be me, but I fail to see how a monk using a bow is as powerful as you're trying to make it out to be. The Monk's wisdom bonus to A.C. is only applied when wearing no armor, so while it is a good ability, it actually will cost the character more to increase his armor class in this fashion. He could only increase it with Gloves of Dexterity (a good choice for an archer character, no doubt) with a periapt of wisdom (both of these items cost far more than increasing the enhancement bonus on armor) and with bracers of armor and bracers of armor take up the slot for greater bracers of archery. You can't flurry with a bow, unless you take a feat from the Eberron CS, and even if you can it is as powerful as the Rapid Shot feat for a 3rd level Monk. Monk's don't get a speed boost until level 3 and for a +10 foot speed bonus taking his first level as Barbarian would've been a better pick with the speed bonus, D12 HD, and ability to rage. Those three levels of Monk really netted the character very little. He got an unarmed strike that deals 1d6 damage, flurry of blows (fairly useless for an archer character), either stunning fist or improved grapple (again fairly useless for an archer character), either Combat Reflexes (which again is useless for an archer character because you do not threaten areas with a bow) or Deflect Arrows which basically boils down to a free feat (as does Fighter 1 and with a D10 HD), a +2 vs. enchantment spells, +10 movement rate, and Evasion (probably the best thing gained), and the wisdom to A.C. that doesn't stack with armor which is a cheaper way of increasing your A.C. This character would have been better off as a Barbarian1/Ranger or a Barbarian1/Scout to increase his movement rate even more. Out of curiosity, what class did he start playing after he took those 3 levels of monk.
Frugal 04-13-07, 12:23 PM	That is what you get when a powergamer does not have a DM that knows the rules better than him. And it also highlights why I think monk should be removed as a class and made a PrC Well it was all rules legal, we were low level, I think he took 2 levels of monk then started taking ranger levels and the ascetic hunter feat. I think he ended up with something like 18's in both WIS and DEX (we were using rolled stats) so that's +8 to AC right there and all he did was buy potions of mage armour (and yes, the DM wasn't really limiting that very well, which he should have) to pump it up even higher, and he got bracers of armour as soon as he could afford them.
Tevin Kevlak 04-13-07, 12:33 PM	Well it was all rules legal, we were low level, I think he took 2 levels of monk then started taking ranger levels and the ascetic hunter feat. I think he ended up with something like 18's in both WIS and DEX (we were using rolled stats) so that's +8 to AC right there and all he did was buy potions of mage armour (and yes, the DM wasn't really limiting that very well, which he should have) to pump it up even higher, and he got bracers of armour as soon as he could afford them. That doesn't really sound like an overpowered character to me. He could have had the same A.C. and worn a chain shirt. +4 armor +4 dex = +8. Also, potions are quite expensive considering they're 1 shot magic items typically with a CL of 1 (unless you pay even more money) so they last for a single hour. He would have been better off buying a Wand of Mage Armor and asking the group skill monkey/caster to activate it for himor just spend som CC ranks in Use Magic Item. He'd get 50 uses out of 750gp instead of 15 uses for 750 gp. Bracers of Armor cost 4000gp for a +2 armor bonus. He could have spent 4250gp instead for a +6 armor bonus and Armor Bonuses don't stack so as soon as he got those bracers of armor his mage armor potions he was blowing his money on became half as effective as before. Also, Ascetic Hunter increases the DC of his stunning attempts, something fairly useless for an archer character, and his unarmed damage bonus, which again his fairly useless for an archer character. The only upside to this build is he could still attack enemies close up without dropping his bow but alternatively he could also simply take a 5 foot step back and attack with his bow, making the 2 level dip (and again monks don't get a speed bonus until level 3) and his feat fairly situational. If you want to truly see an "overpowered" character go lurk around the Char Op boards for a few days.
Keladelros 04-13-07, 12:35 PM	Weapon Familiarity Feat duder. Gain proficieny that have all things Elven in its name. You gain proficiency in racial weapons.
Frugal 04-13-07, 12:44 PM	That doesn't really sound like an overpowered character to me. He could have had the same A.C. and worn a chain shirt. +4 armor +4 dex = +8. Also, potions are quite expensive considering they're 1 shot magic items typically with a CL of 1 (unless you pay even more money) so they last for a single hour. He would have been better off buying a Wand of Mage Armor and asking the group skill monkey/caster to activate it for himor just spend som CC ranks in Use Magic Item. He'd get 50 uses out of 750gp instead of 15 uses for 750 gp. Bracers of Armor cost 4000gp for a +2 armor bonus. He could have spent 4250gp instead for a +6 armor bonus and Armor Bonuses don't stack so as soon as he got those bracers of armor his mage armor potions he was blowing his money on became half as effective as before. Well you need a higher caster level to brew potions so they do last longer than that. Agree that a wand is probably better in the long run but probably would've raised an eyebrow more than just saying, "do they have any potions of mage armour? How much?" and then slipping in that he was buying something like 50 of them while we were all buying boat loads of healing potions. He might have even had 20 in one of those stats, if not both (he has a "knack" for getting 18's), and the DM at that time had a tendency to give out cool items because they're cool (he gave the 6th level rogue who joined the group a rapier of puncturing and ring of blinking because they were good rogue items), and I think he managed to get them for free as payment for doing a favour for a lawful temple. Although now that I look at the stacking it might've been an amulet of natural armour instead since bracers wouldn't stack with mage armour (or that was a rules mistake). He had an AC in the mid-20's at like 3rd level, that's all I remember. Also, Ascetic Hunter increases the DC of his stunning attempts, something fairly useless for an archer character, and his unarmed damage bonus, which again his fairly useless for an archer character. The only upside to this build is he could still attack enemies close up without dropping his bow but alternatively he could also simply take a 5 foot step back and attack with his bow, making the 2 level dip (and again monks don't get a speed bonus until level 3) and his feat fairly situational. Ah, I couldn't remember the exact build, I remember him talking about ascetic hunter but maybe he didn't take it. And now that you mention the speed bump I'm remembering that he did do 3 levels because he definitely had the speed bump, and it still gives a +2 BAB, I know he was concerned with how far he'd go in monk because he didn't want to lose too much BAB.
Jaxgaret 04-13-07, 12:56 PM	Well it was all rules legal, we were low level, I think he took 2 levels of monk then started taking ranger levels and the ascetic hunter feat. I think he ended up with something like 18's in both WIS and DEX (we were using rolled stats) so that's +8 to AC right there and all he did was buy potions of mage armour (and yes, the DM wasn't really limiting that very well, which he should have) to pump it up even higher, and he got bracers of armour as soon as he could afford them. I can't tell from your post whether or not your group knows this, but Mage Armor will not stack with Bracers of Armor by RAW. It might just be me, but I fail to see how a monk using a bow is as powerful as you're trying to make it out to be. The Monk's wisdom bonus to A.C. is only applied when wearing no armor, so while it is a good ability, it actually will cost the character more to increase his armor class in this fashion. He could only increase it with Gloves of Dexterity (a good choice for an archer character, no doubt) with a periapt of wisdom (both of these items cost far more than increasing the enhancement bonus on armor) and with bracers of armor and bracers of armor take up the slot for greater bracers of archery. You can't flurry with a bow, unless you take a feat from the Eberron CS, and even if you can it is as powerful as the Rapid Shot feat for a 3rd level Monk. Monk's don't get a speed boost until level 3 and for a +10 foot speed bonus taking his first level as Barbarian would've been a better pick with the speed bonus, D12 HD, and ability to rage. Those three levels of Monk really netted the character very little. He got an unarmed strike that deals 1d6 damage, flurry of blows (fairly useless for an archer character), either stunning fist or improved grapple (again fairly useless for an archer character), either Combat Reflexes (which again is useless for an archer character because you do not threaten areas with a bow) or Deflect Arrows which basically boils down to a free feat (as does Fighter 1 and with a D10 HD), a +2 vs. enchantment spells, +10 movement rate, and Evasion (probably the best thing gained), and the wisdom to A.C. that doesn't stack with armor which is a cheaper way of increasing your A.C. This character would have been better off as a Barbarian1/Ranger or a Barbarian1/Scout to increase his movement rate even more. Out of curiosity, what class did he start playing after he took those 3 levels of monk. I agree that it it not overpowered, but monks make for a fairly nice 1- to 3-level dip. Note that the Wis bonus to AC functions against both touch attacks and when flat-footed - this is better than most other types of AC bonus that only apply to one or the other, except for Deflection and Sacred/Profane/Luck etc. bonuses. And Improved Grapple is useful for any character; you get +4 to your grapple check when a foe tries to grapple you.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-13-07, 01:08 PM	Unfortunately, Monk is one of those classes that (like the Paladin) requires DM Fiat to balance correctly. Which is why it belongs as a PrC, so it requires sacrifice and careful planning to gain the benefits.
Frugal 04-13-07, 02:28 PM	I can't tell from your post whether or not your group knows this, but Mage Armor will not stack with Bracers of Armor by RAW. Monks are a pretty nice 1- to 3-level dip class. Note that the Wis bonus to AC functions against both touch attacks and when flat-footed - this is better than most other types of AC bonus that only apply to one or the other, except for Deflection and Sacred/Profane/Luck etc. bonuses. And Improved Grapple is useful for any character; you get +4 to your grapple check when a foe tries to grapple you. Right, it's been awhile since that campaign ended (last summer) so I'm hazy on the details. I think it was an amulet of natural armour possibly, I could be wrong and we were just screwing up the stacking rules. But while this particular build may or may not have been that cheesy, it did raise the issue of the automatic proficiency in these weapons. And the more I thought about, it for the campaign I'm working on, the more I didn't like the idea that any race should receive automatic proficiency in a weapon just because they're a member of that race. And since I was already considering giving races familiarity with their racial weapons it was a good way to take a closer look at the elves getting free martial proficiencies.
Ranger REG 04-14-07, 01:52 AM	I don't know, there's not that many. What bugs me is that they're all exotic so nobody actually uses them. Probably because they only make such weapons for themselves? :uh-huh: What is it you humans claiming other racial weapons as your own? :nonono:
Arcane Guyver 04-14-07, 07:04 AM	Not a fan of the 'Weapon Familiarity' mechanic, but it's much more preferable to the 'auto-proficiency' mechanic elves are based on now. I think the race as a whole would be better off if: 1.) Remove the four free Martial Weapon Proficiencies. 2.) Give elves Weapon Familiarity: They treat the longbow, rapier, shortbow, and longbow as simple weapons. They also treat the courtblade, lightblade, and thinblade as martial weapons. All that, barring a possible +2 racial bonus on Concentration and Spellcraft checks, would make elves cool in my book.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-14-07, 07:35 AM	Unfortunately, Monk is one of those classes that (like the Paladin) requires DM Fiat to balance correctly. Which is why it belongs as a PrC, so it requires sacrifice and careful planning to gain the benefits. Really? Because unless you mean DM fiat to balance the monk by making it better, you're pretty much disagreeing with everyone on the planet. Because the general consensus is that monks are, as written, fairly weak. I honestly don't see any need to control the class because I've never seen one combo with the monk class that impressed me in any way, shape, or form. The monk class already has a "sacrifice" involved. It's called taking monk levels, every level of monk you take is literally a level you could have taken in a superior class. That's sacrifice right there, in my opinion. So what if you can get your wisdom bonus to AC? Unless your wisdom is in the upper 20's, you are better off wearing armor. Seriously, when wizards and druids and clerics are breaking the rules 15 ways from sunday, it's hard for me to care what a monk does. And there is nothing you can show me with a monk that will impress me in any way and that I can't find an easier way to do, for better results.
Frugal 04-14-07, 09:59 AM	Probably because they only make such weapons for themselves? :uh-huh: What is it you humans claiming other racial weapons as your own? :nonono: The way I'm looking at it is that some races do use certain weapons for a variety of reasons (could be cultural for instance). The racial weapons tend to be only used by members of a particular race. That doesn't mean they don't make them for others, it just means that your odds of running into one are less common. I'm not saying that non-elves can't take EWP in an elven weapon, I'm saying that elves can treat them as a martial weapon because in elven culture they're pretty common. As for the other normal martial weapons? Those are weapons that are made by a variety of races (probably some variations in design or ornamentation but not enough to make a mechanical difference).
Frugal 04-14-07, 10:45 AM	Not a fan of the 'Weapon Familiarity' mechanic, but it's much more preferable to the 'auto-proficiency' mechanic elves are based on now. I think the race as a whole would be better off if: 1.) Remove the four free Martial Weapon Proficiencies. 2.) Give elves Weapon Familiarity: They treat the longbow, rapier, shortbow, and longbow as simple weapons. They also treat the courtblade, lightblade, and thinblade as martial weapons. All that, barring a possible +2 racial bonus on Concentration and Spellcraft checks, would make elves cool in my book. I don't know, I think that the weapon familiarity mechanic is reasonably useful for what it does, and I agree it's much better than the auto proficiency thing. I'm currently leaning toward similar changes as you're mentioning except dropping the longsword and rapier entirely.
Ranger REG 04-14-07, 04:49 PM	Not a fan of the 'Weapon Familiarity' mechanic, but it's much more preferable to the 'auto-proficiency' mechanic elves are based on now. I think the race as a whole would be better off if: 1.) Remove the four free Martial Weapon Proficiencies. 2.) Give elves Weapon Familiarity: They treat the longbow, rapier, shortbow, and longbow as simple weapons. They also treat the courtblade, lightblade, and thinblade as martial weapons. Barring the fact that you neglected the longsword, which has been the stapled gear of elves since ODnD, that's over-the-top even for one race. You also shafted their favored class, the wizard, since it does not have starting weapon proficiency in simple weapons. This only going to make me hate racial weapon as a concept even more.
Arcane Guyver 04-14-07, 09:04 PM	Barring the fact that you neglected the longsword, which has been the stapled gear of elves since ODnD, that's over-the-top even for one race. That was a simple mistyping on my part...notice Longbow was mentioned twice. :embarrass You also shafted their favored class, the wizard, since it does not have starting weapon proficiency in simple weapons. Meh, wizards suck at using weapons anyways; their money is better spent on a light crossbow and scrolls. Now, the +2 racial bonus to Concentration and Spellcraft, that's something a wizard can make good use of.
Frugal 04-14-07, 09:24 PM	Barring the fact that you neglected the longsword, which has been the stapled gear of elves since ODnD, that's over-the-top even for one race. You also shafted their favored class, the wizard, since it does not have starting weapon proficiency in simple weapons. This only going to make me hate racial weapon as a concept even more. Personally, I have no attachment to ODnD and I'm crafting my own world so I don't have to follow "canon" on that, I prefer the idea of replacing longsword and rapier with familiarity with lightblade, thinblade and courtblade. As for shafting the favoured class, if you want to capture the older editions' flavour of elves then a far better thing would be to change their favoured class to duskblade, which is one of the better versions of the whole fighting mage concept out there.
DrMorganes 04-14-07, 09:26 PM	Personally, I like to houserule that an elf treats the thinblade and lightblade as martial weapons rather than exotic. Because otherwise martial characters don't get a whole lot out of the race. Agreed. This fits with other racial weapons, like the dwarven waraxe. Martially-focused characters gain the benefit of their training with regard to these racial weapons, while non-martial classes and members of other races still have to burn a feat to use them properly.
Bopple 04-14-07, 09:30 PM	Races don't get every weapon with their name in it as familiar, just the ones in the PHB. They do get every racial weapons as a martial weapon. Check Complete Warrior. I prefer to keep the thin-blade an exotic weapon, even for elves... so I can dip into exotic weapon master PrC later. Yum. Complete Warrior specifically states that you can qualify for Exotic Weapon Master with such semi-exotic racial weapons.
Frugal 04-14-07, 09:42 PM	They do get every racial weapons as a martial weapon. Check Complete Warrior. I know there's a feat to do it, or is there another option somewhere else you're talking about?
Bopple 04-14-07, 09:55 PM	Maybe I should have quoted a bit more. Except that means you are giving Gnomes and Dwarves a free feat- Improved Weapon Familiarity. Races don't get every weapon with their name in it as familiar, just the ones in the PHB. Gnomes and Dwarves don't need Improved Weapon Familiarity. Complete Warrior, pp154-155.
Ranger REG 04-15-07, 02:05 AM	As for shafting the favoured class, if you want to capture the older editions' flavour of elves then a far better thing would be to change their favoured class to duskblade, which is one of the better versions of the whole fighting mage concept out there. Which brings up my other hate: new base classes.
Frugal 04-15-07, 10:41 AM	Gnomes and Dwarves don't need Improved Weapon Familiarity. Complete Warrior, pp154-155. Yes and no, it suggests allowing them to choose which weapons they're familiar with, that's not the same thing as saying they're familiar with all their weapons, which is what improved weapon familiarity does. For example, CW adds 1 more dwarven weapon I believe, bringing the total to 3, a dwarf has 2 weapons he's familiar with so he can pick which 2 (of the 3) he's familiar with. He doesn't suddenly gain familiarity with all 3 though. Which brings up my other hate: new base classes. I have mixed feelings about them. I agree that some are just silly. However, from my (limited) understanding of older D&D flavour, the duskblade class is the best representation (to date) of the old "elves are mage warriors" concept worked. It certainly works much better than simply playing a wizard who has a couple free martial weapon proficiencies, both in terms of flavour and mechanics.
Bopple 04-15-07, 11:52 AM	Yes and no, it suggests allowing them to choose which weapons they're familiar with, that's not the same thing as saying they're familiar with all their weapons, which is what improved weapon familiarity does. For example, CW adds 1 more dwarven weapon I believe, bringing the total to 3, a dwarf has 2 weapons he's familiar with so he can pick which 2 (of the 3) he's familiar with. He doesn't suddenly gain familiarity with all 3 though. What are you talking about? I don't want to violate CoC, but... However, if you introduce more race-specific exotic weapons, such as the ones included in this book, the advantage increases in significance. To compensate, consider limiting the number of exotic weapons that a given character of that race can treat as familiar to no more than the number of weapons associated with the race in the Player's Handbook. ... If the character must choose which exotic weapons ... It takes it for granted that every racial weapon for gnome or dwarf is useable as a martial weapon, as default. And it suggests limiting it for balance. Don't you see "consider limiting"? And it uses "If" for the suggested method of balancing.
kalstrand 04-15-07, 02:22 PM	What are you talking about? I don't want to violate CoC, but... It takes it for granted that every racial weapon for gnome or dwarf is useable as a martial weapon, as default. And it suggests limiting it for balance. Don't you see "consider limiting"? And it uses "If" for the suggested method of balancing. The PHB does not say that a gnome or dwarf is familiar with all racial weapons. It gives them familiarity with those weapons listed in the description. It just happens that the list contails all racial weapons in the PHB. Complete Warrior is suggesting you can change familiar weapons listed in the PHB for racial weapons from other sources. So it is saying that a dwarf could trade familiarity with the war axe or the urgosh for familiarity with say the sword buckler.
Frugal 04-15-07, 02:34 PM	There's absolutely nothing in the passage on exotic weapons in CW that actually says that races gain familiarity with all of their racial weapons.
Ranger REG 04-15-07, 03:07 PM	I have mixed feelings about them. I agree that some are just silly. However, from my (limited) understanding of older D&D flavour, the duskblade class is the best representation (to date) of the old "elves are mage warriors" concept worked. It certainly works much better than simply playing a wizard who has a couple free martial weapon proficiencies, both in terms of flavour and mechanics. Sorry, but I'm sticking to core fighter/wizard.
Bopple 04-15-07, 10:41 PM	So, you guys are saying, this phrase, "However, if you introduce more race-specific exotic weapons" means "if you give free Weapon Familiarity Feat to gnomes and dwarves"? And then they suggest us to "consider" limiting back the house-rule? What a leap of logic in interpretation. :P
Ranger REG 04-16-07, 01:39 AM	So, you guys are saying, this phrase, "However, if you introduce more race-specific exotic weapons" means "if you give free Weapon Familiarity Feat to gnomes and dwarves"? And then they suggest us to "consider" limiting the house-rule? What a leap of logic in interpretation. :P Your Campaign, Your Rules.TM All I know is I don't want this in MY game. Keep the official rules as is, but feel free to houserule your own game.
Bopple 04-16-07, 01:49 AM	Your Campaign, Your Rules.TM So is yours. All I know is I don't want this in MY game. I am not interested in what you want or not. Keep the official rules as is, Where is the evidence that your opinion is the official? but feel free to houserule your own game. And where is the evidence that my opinion is not the official?
Mogarth_Warheart 04-16-07, 01:53 AM	Why should every elf know how to use the Thinblade, Courtblade and the other one (i forget the name)? I mean does every human know how to use a Longsword or Bastard sword, what about a rapier or longbow? No they don't but they are human weapons arnt they we created them so shouldn't that mean we know how to use them all?
Ranger REG 04-16-07, 04:18 AM	Where is the evidence that your opinion is the official? Since the rules hasn't changed, particularly the weapon section of the elves' racial traits. :evillaugh
Bopple 04-16-07, 06:31 AM	Umm.. pardon? What does dwarven or gnomish weapon familiarity have anything to do with elven racial traits?
Frugal 04-16-07, 08:41 AM	So, you guys are saying, this phrase, "However, if you introduce more race-specific exotic weapons" means "if you give free Weapon Familiarity Feat to gnomes and dwarves"? And then they suggest us to "consider" limiting back the house-rule? What a leap of logic in interpretation. :P I've read the section in question several times, there is nothing there that says that any race automatically gets familiarity with its racial weapons. And, the fact that CW includes a feat that does that (improved weapon familiarity) I'd say that's a pretty good indication that it wasn't their intent to suggest that. You're taking one sentence out of the context of a whole paragraph it's part of.
Frugal 04-16-07, 08:46 AM	Why should every elf know how to use the Thinblade, Courtblade and the other one (i forget the name)? I mean does every human know how to use a Longsword or Bastard sword, what about a rapier or longbow? No they don't but they are human weapons arnt they we created them so shouldn't that mean we know how to use them all? Um, I don't think anyone has been suggesting that. I know I certainly haven't been. If anything, I'm agreeing with you that every member of a race shouldn't receive free weapon proficiencies. I'm suggesting removing the free weapon proficiencies with those weapons and instead giving them the ability to treat those exotic weapons as martial weapons. What that reflects is that any elf who trains with all martial weapons will train with these weapons. But classes that don't learn martial weapons gain no benefit. For that matter, it also nerfs classes that don't receive proficiency with all martial weapons as they no longer gain the free proficiency in longswords and rapiers, and I'm leaning toward the idea of treating shortbows and longbows as simple weapons, making them so common that almost every elf has had some experience with using them.
Bopple 04-16-07, 09:53 AM	I've read the section in question several times, there is nothing there that says that any race automatically gets familiarity with its racial weapons. Oh, yes it does, it takes it for granted in the section I quoted above. And, the fact that CW includes a feat that does that (improved weapon familiarity) I'd say that's a pretty good indication that it wasn't their intent to suggest that. No, not at all. There are so many races which can benefit from it.
Frugal 04-16-07, 10:28 AM	Oh, yes it does, it takes it for granted in the section I quoted above. Well, I'm away from my books right now but all it says is that Dwarves and Gnomes are familiar with their racial weapons in their racial weapons in the PHB. It doesn't say a thing about them automatically becoming familiar with any other racial weapons introduced in CW or elsewhere. No, not at all. There are so many races which can benefit from it. :confused: If we follow your argument that CW allows you to be familiar with all your racial weapons then there's no need to take the feat. Even if we follow the suggestion of allowing races to swap out their racial weapons it doesn't work. Let's look at it, Dwarves would gain familiarity with 2 out of their 3 weapons; might as well take EWP in the 3rd if they want it. Gnomes have familiarity with 1 out of 2 or 3 of their weapons (again, away from books so I can't check how many they actually get), better to take EWP unless they do have 3 weapons and want all 3. Elves, if we follow your argument are already familiar with them. If we restrict it to swapping out what they're already familiar with then they need the feat. Orcs and Half-orcs, no familiarity and only 1 weapon so they might as well take EWP if they want to wield a double axe. So exactly who benefits from this feat then?
Bopple 04-16-07, 10:39 AM	Oh, please, after you read the book thoroughly and correctly.
wonlee76 04-16-07, 10:44 AM	Conceptually, if your DM wants to change the proficiencies for an elf to include Thinblade or give them familiarity with the elven exotic weapons, that's up to him. However, I would change the pre-reqs to the Champion of Correllon prestige class from Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Thinblade, Courtblade or whatever) to Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Weapon Focus (Thinblade). The prestige class intended that the PC take a certain number of feats to gain entry into it. By changing the elf race to "bypass" one of the pre-reqs is cheap in my opinion.
Frugal 04-16-07, 10:48 AM	Oh, please, after you read the book thoroughly and correctly. Care to show a quote or give a page ref that actually says what you're saying it says? As I've said, I'm away from books at the moment or else I'd post the whole paragraph you're claiming says that Dwarves and Gnomes gain familiarity with all their weapons.
Frugal 04-16-07, 10:50 AM	Conceptually, if your DM wants to change the proficiencies for an elf to include Thinblade or give them familiarity with the elven exotic weapons, that's up to him. However, I would change the pre-reqs to the Champion of Correllon prestige class from Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Thinblade, Courtblade or whatever) to Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Weapon Focus (Thinblade). The prestige class intended that the PC take a certain number of feats to gain entry into it. By changing the elf race to "bypass" one of the pre-reqs is cheap in my opinion. Agreed, I'd make the change you suggested as otherwise you'd meet that feat prerequisite by nature of being an elf with a class that's proficient with all martial weapons (since weapon familiarity allows you to still treat it as proficiency with an exotic weapon for PrC requirements).
stargzrrag 05-03-07, 10:05 AM	The part about the Elven Courtblade, Lightblade and Thinblade that I found odd was in the Races of the Wild book. In the last paragraph of each weapon’s description is says that you can treat them like other weapons. For example the Thinblade reads: “ Characters proficient with the elven thinblade may treat it as a rapier or longsword for the purpose of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.” The reason this bothers me: 1. After reading this, I interpreted it as saying that if you took the Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW) feat you would be proficient in both the Thinblade and the Lightblade. (no problem yet) 2. Then if you took Weapon Focus: Rapier, you could apply it to both the Thinblade and the Lightblade. (+1 attack for either, seems a little powerful) 3. Then after taking Weapon Specialization: Rapier (which would also apply to both) and getting a BAB +8, you could take the Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2). Since they are all piercing weapons, that’s a total of +3 attack and +4 damage with both Thinblade and Lightblade (and rapier for that matter). (um, wow)