Post/Author/DateTime	Post
luedre 02-28-08, 06:27 PM	Ok, due to the poor english that is used to describe the feat in the PHB, my DM and I are having a little issue with defining the intent of the empower spell and no errata has addressed it. It starts out by saying All Variable, numerical effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. So does that mean only variables are increased, or the whole spell is increased. It then gives an example of magic missile being (1d4 +!) X 1.5 . Meaning that it's the whole spell, but my DM argues that the wording says that only the variables change. IE if it's a heal spell you only get 1d8 x 1.5 + 5, instead of (1d8 +5) x 1.5 Clarification would really be appricated.
Sildatorak 02-28-08, 06:49 PM	There was a rules of the game article (or perhaps it was the FAQ) that addressed this. The official word was that it is multiplying whatever the end result is. So CLW at caster level 5+ would be (6 to 13)*1.5.
dman11235 02-28-08, 07:08 PM	I definitely read it as any dice are multiplied. No straight bonuses. So a magic missle: all of the d4s are x1.5, but the 1 is not. CLW@CL 5? That's 1d8x1.5+5.
runestar 02-28-08, 07:33 PM	Ask your DM to read the desc of empower spell in the PHB very carefully. There should be an example regarding an empowered magic missile spell, and it clearly states "...(1d4+1)*1.5...", meaning that you roll for the total damage, then multiply this final result by 1.5. And don't bother arguing that the +1 is not a variable. That is obviously what wotc intended with their wording. This is dnd math, not real life algebra. Plus, I see little difference between denoting something as 1d6+3, and a 6-sided die with the numbers 4 to 9 painted on its side, rather than 1 to 6, and then adding 3 to the numbered rolled. If you accept the latter, there is no reason to reject the 1st.:)
Zog_Jakome 02-28-08, 07:48 PM	I asked this same question a while ago and came to the conclusion that it is (1d8+5) * 1.5. however after asking the official source, custserv, Dman is correct it is (1d8 * 1.5) +5. see dman custserv isn't all that bad. I asked them about the wording of the magic missile example and said it was bad wording it is (1d4 * 1.5) +1.
dman11235 02-28-08, 08:07 PM	Right 50% of the time means that they will be right some of the time. But the 50% of the times that they are wrong means I don't take their word for anything. In fact, the fact that CustServ said my way was right and the fact that runestar is making a ton of sense and the fact that that example is there leads me to change my opinion.
runestar 02-28-08, 08:11 PM	Right 50% of the time means that they will be right some of the time. But the 50% of the times that they are wrong means I don't take their word for anything. The only problem is that you can never be sure just when they are right or wrong. If I knew exactly when their answers were accurate, and when they were wrong, then it would be as good as 100% accurate. But sadly...:(
Zog_Jakome 02-28-08, 08:33 PM	Right 50% of the time means that they will be right some of the time. But the 50% of the times that they are wrong means I don't take their word for anything. In fact, the fact that CustServ said my way was right and the fact that runestar is making a ton of sense and the fact that that example is there leads me to change my opinion. change your opinion of custserv or the empower spell? I am guessing empower spell. anyway here is what custserv said... The Empower Spell feat reads, "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half." PHB page 93. This means that the die roll is multiplied by 1.5, however any integer bonuses are not. when I ask about the magic missile example... The example is worded poorly, but the same rules applies. You roll 1d4, multiply by 1.5 and add the integer bonus. think about it though fireball 10d6 average damage 30; average empower damage 45 (cleric 10 with augment healing, and healing lorcall(max ranks in heal(13))(spell compendium 110), healing domain, domain focus feat) cure serious wounds 3d8 + 21 average healing 33; average empower healing 39 or 49. holy crap there really isn't that much difference when you look at the math but think about it this way... maximize is supposed to be a step up from empower right? well if the 3d8 was maximized; 45 healing. the average of the empower is higher than maximize if you do it (xdx+x)*1.5. That is probably why custserv ruled the way they did, to keep maximize better than empower.
Sildatorak 02-28-08, 08:37 PM	The only problem is that you can never be sure just when they are right or wrong. It is pretty easy to tell. If they agree with me they're right.
luedre 02-28-08, 08:43 PM	Now in the English languages, a comma can mean and. So what does that mean, could it mean they meant All variable and numeric effects. Or did they mean all variable numeric effects? See, the comma is the problem, because you don't need it for the second inturpretation, but if it means and, well then you do. As I stated, it's poor wording. Read the next sentance too, An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, so on and so forth. It doesn't give a but or an except when stating this. So either we have one case of bad wording at the beginning of the feat, or there are a multiple parts wrong with the feat. Take your choice and until an errata comes out, I wouldn't trust customer service, they've actually said one thing to one person and the exact opposite to another person on the same topic.
dman11235 02-28-08, 08:54 PM	It is pretty easy to tell. If they agree with me they're right. If only, if only... @luedre: They've even answered the same exact (copy/paste) question with two completely contradictory answers. EDIT: How is the example poorly worded at all?!?
runestar 02-28-08, 09:45 PM	It is pretty easy to tell. If they agree with me they're right. And I am wrong if I disagree with you?:P That is probably why custserv ruled the way they did, to keep maximize better than empower. If that is the case, then they are stepping way outside their jurisdiction. Their responsibility is simply to interpret the rules as they are written, not how they ought to be written, much less rewrite them altogether. If I wanted a personal opinion, I would just houserule it myself. Likewise, even if their interpretation results in empower spell being situationally superior to maximize spell, that is the designer's problem, not theirs. Think about it this way. Say cure light wounds heals 1d8+1 (to give a number between 2 and 9). Usually, we roll an 8-sided die, and then add one. But we could just as easily take a blank eight sided die, and then paint the numbers 2 to 9 on it, instead of 1 to 8. Rolling it would give the same result as 1d8+1. But if we were to roll this die, it would be the random number between 2 and 9 which gets multiplied by 1.5. I don't see why the former example should be any different.:)
StevenO 02-28-08, 11:02 PM	If there is a variable in the equation Empower would multiply the ENTIRE equation. For Magic Missile this means (1d4+1)x1.5 instead of (1d4x1.5)+1. Magic Missle may not actually be the best example but if a spell did (1d4+1) per caster level then that entire amount gets multiplied. That 1d4+1 is basically just a d6 but with a tighter maximum damage range. Note that the cure wounds spells are not the same thing. There you are healing a random amount of healing PLUS a level based amount which is not random. The random part of those spells don't change as character level goes up and thus they aren't affected by Empower. Although Maximize is generally superior to Empower there ARE cases where Empower can produce a better result. It may be unlikely but a Maximize Timestop only gets you 5 rounds while an Empowered Timestop gets you (2-5)x1.5 rounds.
Zog_Jakome 02-29-08, 06:15 AM	yes there are cases where empower is better than maximize but you have to roll so high to make it better. if a 10d6 result is 46 then the empower result would be 69 better than if the 10d6 was maximized. But look how much higher than average you have to roll. but if a cure spell is (xdx+x)*1.5 the average is better than the maximize that creates a problem because then everyone would want empower instead of maximize, there is no reason to take maximize. either way it doesn't matter, do what you want to do. I am telling what I honestly believe it is and I used to be on the other side because it added so much more. But now it makes sense; only the dice are multiplied, not the integer.
Merestil Haye 02-29-08, 07:38 AM	yes there are cases where empower is better than maximize but you have to roll so high to make it better. if a 10d6 result is 46 then the empower result would be 69 better than if the 10d6 was maximized. But look how much higher than average you have to roll. but if a cure spell is (xdx+x)*1.5 the average is better than the maximize that creates a problem because then everyone would want empower instead of maximize, there is no reason to take maximize.When evaluating what the rules say, you should never decide on the meaning by evaluating the relative power of the answers. You're right - there is absolutely no reason to Maximise a cure spell. Frankly, there's no reason to empower one either, unless the higher level version requires less dice (thus never bother with empowered Cure Light, because a Cure Serious will always produce better results, while an empowered Cure Serious is a viable choice when healing a single creature.) either way it doesn't matter, do what you want to do. I am telling what I honestly believe it is and I used to be on the other side because it added so much more. But now it makes sense; only the dice are multiplied, not the integer.Your conclusion is in error. You are quite welcome to houserule for power-level reasons, but that is not what the rules say. The rules say that the variable result is affected. In the equation y=2x+1, is y a variable? (Answer : yes, it is). If I want to multiply the variable y by 1½ do I multiply 2x by 1½ and add 1 or do I evaluate 2x+1 and multiply the total by 1½? The answer is the latter. A spells's variable result is the equation Result = XdY + K. "Result" is the variable that Empower is applied to, not XdY.
Zog_Jakome 03-01-08, 06:30 PM	I understand your point 100%, but I think the rules were in error that with cure spells it is more beneficial to get empower than it does to get maximize and empower costs less. that is my reasoning. also my cleric/radiant servant of pelor would get gimped once he gets maximize at 6th level when they get empower spell at 2nd level. it shouldn't be any competition between empower or maximize if you can do them for free, if you can do one of them both for free you should always choose maximize. because you get an automatic max roll for all your dice. it shouldn't be IMO "well I didn't roll that well on the empowered cure, but it's still better than maximize." That is why I am saying what I am saying. you can throw what the book says at me all you want but I think the book is in error by this simple fact. by the book you are 100% correct, so stop throwing what the book says at me... please.
Nathreet 03-01-08, 06:41 PM	The example in the PHB and FAQ say that you add 50% to the total damage, not just the dice rolls. Naturally the DM can houserule something else if he wants for cure/inflict spells or for all spells.
StevenO 03-01-08, 08:18 PM	Even Empowering the complete total a normal Cure Spell doesn't make it worth doing in most cases. Don't forget that the +X of 1d8+X for a Cure Light Wounds spell is capped at +5 which means that unless you max out that d8 (13x1.5=19) your average CSW will heal just about as much (18) yet still have another +10 in upward potential.
runestar 03-01-08, 09:51 PM	I understand your point 100%, but I think the rules were in error that with cure spells it is more beneficial to get empower than it does to get maximize and empower costs less. that is my reasoning. That is because you are approaching them with the wrong spells. Empower modifies the final result, meaning that it is most useful on spells with a XDY+Z component, and the larger the value of Z, the better. For example, you will get a lot more mileage out of empowering a ray of enfeeblement, rather than maximizing it. Hypothetically, if there was a spell which did something like 1d2+100damage...:D Conversely, maximize works best on spells composed entirely of damage die, such as fireball. Empower has no extra benefit here, since there is no Z to multiply. They simply shine in different scenarios, that is all.:)
JamesMaissen 03-01-08, 10:28 PM	Ok, due to the poor english that is used to describe the feat in the PHB, my DM and I are having a little issue with defining the intent of the empower spell and no errata has addressed it. It starts out by saying All Variable, numerical effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. So does that mean only variables are increased, or the whole spell is increased. It then gives an example of magic missile being (1d4 +!) X 1.5 . Meaning that it's the whole spell, but my DM argues that the wording says that only the variables change. IE if it's a heal spell you only get 1d8 x 1.5 + 5, instead of (1d8 +5) x 1.5 Clarification would really be appricated. It's the whole amount that is the variable as the amount varies from (in the case of clw) 6 to 13. In the magic missile example the argument that 1d4 is the variable and 1 is the constant is fairly arbitrary when you give it some thought. If the goal was to have a variable from 2-5 there would be -no- way to represent it with that (made up) understanding, would there? Also note that 1-4 always contains at least a 1, so wouldn't the variable amount be 0-3? Why not -1 to 2 instead? Besides as noted the PhB makes it perfectly clear with the magic missile example what they are referring to by variable. From their other wordings in books they actually did a relatively decent job in explaining themselves there. -James