Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 09-15-07, 03:11 PM	If a "monster" has the Leadership feat, does their cohort count towards the CR, or is it like when they summon a monster? I'm curious, because I'm sending the PCs up against a high-level Pale Master (Libris Mortis pg 49), who gets an undead cohort as a class feature, and I want to know if that will increase his CR beyond what his levels give him.
Malchius 09-15-07, 03:17 PM	It won't increase his CR but would increase the encounters so calculate the XP as the challenge rating for fighting both of them.
AtsuiShoto 09-15-07, 03:20 PM	If your cohort is one of the things you've gained over the course of leveling up, then it is not counted toward CR. The Leadership feat is one of those things you gain by leveling up.
Gadren 09-16-07, 01:41 AM	So... I've got one vote for yes, and one vote for no...
Disciple_of_Salsa 09-16-07, 02:15 AM	I'm not sure, but I'll throw my vote for Yes. The cohorts and followers of said pale master do not give XP.
runestar 09-16-07, 03:25 AM	Either way, it doesn't make sense. If you are going to give xp for his cohort, then why even bother taking the leadership feat in the first place, when you could just give him his cohort anyways, and spend the slot on another feat which actually does something in this case? Conversely, if you don't give xp, then it represents an unwelcome subsidy. A lv20 npc could use leadership to nab a lv17 npc. Imagine a wiz20 with his lv17 wiz cohort, and you are told you won't get xp for overcoming that lv17 wiz. Where's the justice? It seems to be one of those feats which just does not work for npcs.:P
BW0222 09-17-07, 01:41 PM	Gadren, If a "monster" has the Leadership feat, does their cohort count towards the CR, or is it like when they summon a monster? It adds to the EL of the combat yes. Same if they con some ogres, charm a troll, hire folks, or just bring their friends along. It is it listed in the encounter block, and the PCs are reasonably expected to have to fight it, it counts towards the EL of combat. Also, note that PC cohorts affect the APL which the party is playing under. If you have two cohorts in a five PC party, the DM is certainly going to add a couple to the APL calculation for having more than five characters. Same if an NPC travels with the PCs. Familiars and animal companions are different, but even then, the DM is within his rights to 'round up' party APLs who have extra bears and tigers with them. I'm curious, because I'm sending the PCs up against a high-level Pale Master (Libris Mortis pg 49), who gets an undead cohort as a class feature, and I want to know if that will increase his CR beyond what his levels give him. It doesn't affect his CR. However, it adds to the EL of encounter. Look at the DMG for details of combining creatures of different CRs.
Gadren 09-17-07, 03:03 PM	Gadren, It doesn't affect his CR. However, it adds to the EL of encounter. Look at the DMG for details of combining creatures of different CRs. Yes, I am aware of the details for combining creatures of different CR for a higher EL, I just tend to use the word "CR" when I'm talking about EL. However, this is not the same as hiring or recruiting other monsters. Its a class feature. Which makes me think that I should treat it more like Summon Monster. (If you weren't aware, if a mage begins battle with a summoned monster, that monster does not count towards the EL.) PCs are supposed to be treated as the same level for experience they get when they have cohorts, why should monsters with cohorts not be treated in a similiar manner?
runestar 09-17-07, 10:21 PM	If you weren't aware, if a mage begins battle with a summoned monster, that monster does not count towards the EL. I am inclined to disagree. You don't get xp for defeating monsters summoned during combat because the mage spends a round casting said spell, and the monster is no more powerful than any other spell of that lv. For example, using SM3 to bring in a huge centipede is not necessarily more useful than say, torching the party with a fireball. End of the day, the wizard is no better off. But if he is assumed to start combat with monsters already summoned this way, then some xp should be granted for defeating them (maybe not 100%, but at least something), since he is effectively beginning combat with more resources (in terms of spells cast).
Gadren 09-18-07, 01:43 AM	I am inclined to disagree. You don't get xp for defeating monsters summoned during combat because the mage spends a round casting said spell, and the monster is no more powerful than any other spell of that lv. For example, using SM3 to bring in a huge centipede is not necessarily more useful than say, torching the party with a fireball. End of the day, the wizard is no better off. But if he is assumed to start combat with monsters already summoned this way, then some xp should be granted for defeating them (maybe not 100%, but at least something), since he is effectively beginning combat with more resources (in terms of spells cast). Using that logic, if a mage starts with any buffs up, his CR goes up. I have run several WotC modules where a caster starts combat with a summoned monster if he knows the party is coming, and it specifically says not to increase the EL.
Someone 09-18-07, 02:18 AM	I'm in the "yes, you do" column as well. If the goons aren't there for the money, because the boss has a fancy title, or because they are magically controlled, the only other likely explanation their presence would be the Leadership feat. But just because they have a different reason for being there shouldn't change the XP you get for adventuring the snot out of them.
Norrias 09-18-07, 04:38 AM	I would have to say that a cohort does increase the EL of the encounter. Its not really all that much different than my bad guy dominating a monster then bringing it with him to fight the PC's. Which gives me the idea of dominating the cohort and turning him against his master, oh suk.:eek:
Anguish2 09-18-07, 08:08 AM	I have yet to find an actual reference suggesting that a cohort granted by the Leadership feat increases a party's EPL. While a DM might jack up the difficulty of a given encounter because he feels the benefits of the feat are broken, I can't find sign that it's intended to be that way. A cohort is at best 2 levels behind its leader. A cohort is given XP from an encounter that is a fraction of the XP the leader earns naturally. Which is to say the cohort doesn't factor into calculating who gets what XP. A party of 4 with an extra cohort still counts as 4 participants for calculating XP. In the end, I have to view a cohort as a character aspect, like a paladin's horse or a sorcerer's familiar. Yes, it's likely more powerful, but adjusting anything because of that seems to be houseruling. That all being said, Leadership is intended for players to be able to gain companions that they otherwise "can't". It just formalizes the batman & robin syndrome. For bad guys, you don't need to do that. If you want a CR10 bad guy to have 10 CR8 minions, you can just DO that. Leadership is the player's way of telling the DM that his wizard wants a personal bodyguard, and that the character is willing to pay for it with a feat.
EvilVegan 09-18-07, 08:40 AM	A BBEG is a 20th psion with leadership, undead leadership, and psicrystal affinity. Each of his cohorts/crystals also takes leadership, undead leadership, and psi-crystal affinity if possible. Repeat this loop and you get about 34,400 cohorts and psicrystals, all with a total of hundreds of thousands of followers (if not millions, haven't done the math). If you don't get XP for cohorts then by corralary you can't reasonably do so for followers. Which means you could theoretically not grant XP for any encounter the party has from 1st level on, because it is very likely that their encounters are with followers of the BBEG, and therefore included in his CR (due to the nature of his feats). That's a mighty slippery slope. It's an extreme example and highly contrived and absurd, but it shows that not giving XP can lead to very bad things. You can't treat leadership as a summoning spell or like any other feat. This also shows that feat is "broken", since it increases the CR/EL of a creature that takes it, when no other feat does so.
BW0222 09-18-07, 12:00 PM	Folks, First, cohorts (and even NPCs) affect the APL of the party. The DMG allows the DM to consider any factors in determining the APL of the party. Number of PCs, party balance, resources available, etc. can all be considered. Any reasonable DM isn't going to consider a party of six 6th-level PCs, with three 4th-level cohorts, a paladin warhorse, two animal companions, helping escort two 7th-level NPCs an APL 6 party. Second, it would be insane not to consider the effect of cohorts, animal companions, special mounts, etc. on the EL of combats which PCs are likely to face. If you have two 6th-level (CR 6) opponents, you have an EL 8 combat. Fine. However, they don't add two 4th-level cohorts, a paladin mount, and a dire wolverine out in a field as the same EL 8 encounter. Third, you do not receive XP for summoned creatures, nor do pre-summoned creatures directly affect the EL of the combat. However, the DM is permitted to make reasonable adjustments to the EL of any combat based on various likely factors - terrain, defensible positions, likihood of surprise, prior warning, special equipment, etc. For example, a 7th-level wizard might be an EL 7 encounter. However, if the wizard is asleep without guards or protections, the DM is certainly free to drop the EL to 5 or lower. They are almost certain to gain surprise, can pre-buff, the wizard begins prone and without equipment. PCs might end up with only 2/3rds normal XP or something. Now, the PCs could still be stupid and say yell down the hallway, waking the wizard (you still give them lesser XP), but typically, the wizard is in serious trouble. Alternately, if the DM set-up the encounter such that the wizard likely knows that the PCs are coming -- familiar outside the cave, bared doorway, table pushed up against the door, etc. -- then the DM will typically increase the EL of the encounter by one or two. The wizard is unlikely to be surprised, he is likely to surprise the PCs, can pre-buff and pre-cast spells, or can just escape with the ancient book. Now, again PCs might be really good and sneak past the familiar, d-door and blink into the room, etc. and surprise the wizard... but it is still and EL 9 or so encounter, because only extremely good planning and execution could negate the wizard's advantage.
Gadren 09-18-07, 02:12 PM	A BBEG is a 20th psion with leadership, undead leadership, and psicrystal affinity. Each of his cohorts/crystals also takes leadership, undead leadership, and psi-crystal affinity if possible. Repeat this loop and you get about 34,400 cohorts and psicrystals, all with a total of hundreds of thousands of followers (if not millions, haven't done the math). If you don't get XP for cohorts then by corralary you can't reasonably do so for followers. Which means you could theoretically not grant XP for any encounter the party has from 1st level on, because it is very likely that their encounters are with followers of the BBEG, and therefore included in his CR (due to the nature of his feats). That's a mighty slippery slope. It's an extreme example and highly contrived and absurd, but it shows that not giving XP can lead to very bad things. You can't treat leadership as a summoning spell or like any other feat. This also shows that feat is "broken", since it increases the CR/EL of a creature that takes it, when no other feat does so. Slippery slope AND straw man. Nearly everything you did in that example broke the rules. Second, it would be insane not to consider the effect of cohorts, animal companions, special mounts, etc. on the EL of combats which PCs are likely to face. If you have two 6th-level (CR 6) opponents, you have an EL 8 combat. Fine. However, they don't add two 4th-level cohorts, a paladin mount, and a dire wolverine out in a field as the same EL 8 encounter. Special mounts and animal companions do not count towards the EL though.
Gadren 09-18-07, 02:16 PM	That all being said, Leadership is intended for players to be able to gain companions that they otherwise "can't". It just formalizes the batman & robin syndrome. For bad guys, you don't need to do that. If you want a CR10 bad guy to have 10 CR8 minions, you can just DO that. Leadership is the player's way of telling the DM that his wizard wants a personal bodyguard, and that the character is willing to pay for it with a feat. Ok, for whatever reason, people have this tendency to read the first sentence of the OP and ignore the rest of it. Once again, the reason I am asking is that I am sending the party up against a Pale Master, who gets an undead cohort for free as a class feature. I do not want to raise the EL, so I want to know if I should just ignore said class feature or not.
Vharuck 09-18-07, 02:23 PM	Ok, for whatever reason, people have this tendency to read the first sentence of the OP and ignore the rest of it. Once again, the reason I am asking is that I am sending the party up against a Pale Master, who gets an undead cohort for free as a class feature. I do not want to raise the EL, so I want to know if I should just ignore said class feature or not. If it's a class feature, then it shouldn't add to the EL. Class features are taken into account. However, you compared it to the Leadership feat, which is a powerful feat (notice how it's in the DMG as a possibley allowable feat) intended only for PCs. I think this is why the discussion went off on that tangent.
Boo 09-18-07, 03:35 PM	First, cohorts (and even NPCs) affect the APL of the party. The DMG allows the DM to consider any factors in determining the APL of the party. Number of PCs, party balance, resources available, etc. can all be considered. Any reasonable DM isn't going to consider a party of six 6th-level PCs, with three 4th-level cohorts, a paladin warhorse, two animal companions, helping escort two 7th-level NPCs an APL 6 party. Second, it would be insane not to consider the effect of cohorts, animal companions, special mounts, etc. on the EL of combats which PCs are likely to face. If you have two 6th-level (CR 6) opponents, you have an EL 8 combat. Fine. However, they don't add two 4th-level cohorts, a paladin mount, and a dire wolverine out in a field as the same EL 8 encounter. Animal Companions, special mounts etc are all class features. They are integral in the balancing of the classes (well in theory anyways). Penalizing players (via less XP for equivalent ELs) because they are using their class features is ridiculous. Its basically saying that a party of Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Mage going up against a set of ogres will get more XP than a party of Ranger, Cleric, Rogue, Mage just because there's an extra animal companion in the second group (thus raising its APL).
wonlee76 09-18-07, 04:29 PM	If a "monster" has the Leadership feat, does their cohort count towards the CR, or is it like when they summon a monster? In this situation (a bad guy with the leadership feat and cohort that helps against the PCs), I play it by ear. In fact, since its a voluntary choice (taking the feat), I would consider using the +1 CR or +2 CR rules for the primary bad guy on the basis that it gained an ability (the cohort that accompanies the leadership feat) that substantially increases the difficulty of the bad guy. So more xp for the guy who takes leadership then the same guy of equal level/resources who doesn't take it by bumping the CR of him by +1 or +2. I'm curious, because I'm sending the PCs up against a high-level Pale Master (Libris Mortis pg 49), who gets an undead cohort as a class feature, and I want to know if that will increase his CR beyond what his levels give him. Since this is a class feature of the prestige class, I wouldn't increase the CR of the bad guy. The encounter may be more difficult with the cohort around but the bad guys abilities are somewhat constained or diminished by having to qualify for the prestige class in question (and I believe a loss of a few caster levels as well).
EvilVegan 09-18-07, 04:51 PM	Slippery slope AND straw man. Nearly everything you did in that example broke the rules.Name one rule that was broken. Then show how that rule being broken shows my point to be incorrect. I fully admitted it was an absurd and unlikely example. Had you considered followers, or just cohorts? If you hadn't then I brought up at least 1 point that had to be considered. Can a 1st level party gain XP for fighting 4 goblins (for example) if those goblins were through, some chain of feats (even if you don't use the example above) considered "followers" of the BBEG? If you're counting cohorts as part of the feat, you'd also have to count followers. Leadership grants more than cohorts. A 20th level BBEG could have a whole army of goblins that 1st level people could wade through and never gain a single experience point by your reckoning. Granted you're just using a class ability to gain a cohort, but it is gaining a cohort as if it is using the leadership feat without followers, so the same reasoning applies. If you really want to worship the RAW that much, be my guest - but don't be my DM. (In other words, my opinion is that you should ditch the Cohort, or make it count for XP, the RAW are unclear whether NPCs were intended to take "leadership" as one of their feats. From everything in the books it seems that Leadership is for PCs only.)
StevenO 09-18-07, 06:45 PM	My opinion is that the cohort gained from the Leadership feat or similiar ability will not increase the EL and thus indirectly the XP awarded. With the Pale Master especially don't forget about the dead level the class has already taken. Now if that cohort is encountered away from its master (with the master not being encountered later) I award XP for its full CR although in many cases it will be replaced by the encounter with the BBEG. I'd also award normal XP for defeating summoned creatures when the summoner is never actually encountered. Should the PCs encounter leader and cohort together and defeat the cohort but not the master I'd award XP for the cohort but reduce the XP award for the master until the cohort is replaced.
Gadren 09-19-07, 03:26 AM	My opinion is that the cohort gained from the Leadership feat or similiar ability will not increase the EL and thus indirectly the XP awarded. With the Pale Master especially don't forget about the dead level the class has already taken. Now if that cohort is encountered away from its master (with the master not being encountered later) I award XP for its full CR although in many cases it will be replaced by the encounter with the BBEG. I'd also award normal XP for defeating summoned creatures when the summoner is never actually encountered. Should the PCs encounter leader and cohort together and defeat the cohort but not the master I'd award XP for the cohort but reduce the XP award for the master until the cohort is replaced. Thanks for the helpful input. This is what I plan to do.
BW0222 09-19-07, 09:27 AM	Boo, Animal Companions, special mounts etc are all class features. They are integral in the balancing of the classes (well in theory anyways). Penalizing players (via less XP for equivalent ELs) because they are using their class features is ridiculous. Except that any factor may be used to adjust the APL of a party. This doesn't exclude class features. In fact, many conditions specifically include it. APL calculations assume a party of four with a fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard (using a 25-point buy, normal treasure, able to buy what they want, etc.) If you have two bards, a monk, and a ranger a good DM is going to consider lowering their APL. You are missing several key roles in the group. If you have a fighter, two druids, and a rogue a good DM is going to at least consider increasing the APL. So, yes you can certainly consider class features. You can consider any factor in adjusting the APL of the group -- number of PCs (typically decrease for four, and increase for six or more), the experience of the players, the balance of the group, whether they are missing key roles, the campaign setting, etc. Its basically saying that a party of Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Mage going up against a set of ogres will get more XP than a party of Ranger, Cleric, Rogue, Mage just because there's an extra animal companion in the second group (thus raising its APL). It isn't saying anything of the sort. The DM can certainly consider it. The ranger's animal companion isn't likely to have an effect on combat, so it is unlikely to adjust the APL. You are also missing a front-liner (if the ranger was an archer) so you might even consider lowering the APL -- although it is likely balanced enough. However, if you replaced the ranger with a druid and he had a tiger... you should at least consider increasing the APL. You've got a fairly balanced party and the tiger can take the blocking role. Of course if you are running a water-based campaign, you likely wouldn't increase the APL - since the tiger likely isn't going on too many adventures. You look at the entirety of a party and then decide if an APL adjustment is required. It doesn't matter why the party is weaker or stronger, just that they are. And APL adjustments do not cheat them out of XP. If they are stronger, the DM is going to put in higher EL combats for them to face -- i.e. tougher or more opponents which give them more XP.