Energy Admixture [Archive] - Wizards Community

Energy Admixture [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Amaranth
10-31-07, 11:30 AM Could energy substitution and energy admixture be taken for more than one element and then the energy admixture feat applied twice, once for each energy type? Thanks
LSMFT
10-31-07, 12:22 PM Could energy substitution and energy admixture be taken for more than one elementYes. It specifically says it can be taken more than once.

and then the energy admixture feat applied twice, once for each energy type? ThanksFrom the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats): "You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."
Amaranth
10-31-07, 05:10 PM But I see a strong case for call Energy Admixture (cold) a different feat than Energy Admixture (fire) ..... they are two separate feats, each having the metamagic descriptor. Two different feats which are metamagic = two metamagic feats. Not advocating this position at the moment, just saying that its a fairly compelling argument to allow it.
vorpo
10-31-07, 05:13 PM They are different in my book... Just like Weapon Focus (long sword) is different from Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast). Since Energy Admixture (cold)'s effect is totally different from Energy Admixture (fire), they are different.
larry_the_titan
10-31-07, 05:40 PM The problem with your idea is the fact that Energy admixture is a +4 to the level of the spell. So what 1st level spell are you going to apply both of them to to get something equal to a 9th level spell?
Merestil Haye
10-31-07, 06:00 PM But I see a strong case for call Energy Admixture (cold) a different feat than Energy Admixture (fire)Sorry, but they are the same feat.

The feat is named Energy Admixture. If the choices made it different feats, then there would not be any need for special permission to take the feat twice - EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) would be different feats and therefore could automatically both be taken.

Consider also the PHB feat Melee Weapon Mastery. MWM (Piercing) and MWM (Bludgeoning) provide unnamed bonusses to attack and damage rolls that do not stack together if a creature with both wields a Morningstar. Why? because the feat is Melee Weapon Mastery, whatever damage type it applies to.
Jaxgaret
10-31-07, 07:00 PM Sorry, but they are the same feat.

The feat is named Energy Admixture. If the choices made it different feats, then there would not be any need for special permission to take the feat twice - EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) would be different feats and therefore could automatically both be taken.

That's circular logic. AFAICT, you're saying that EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) are the same feat because Energy Sub (Cold) and Energy Sub (Fire) are the same feat, but you didn't explain why ES (Cold) and ES (Fire) are the same feat.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, necessarily, but you need to submit more clarification.
Lokathor
10-31-07, 07:14 PM The problem with your idea is the fact that Energy admixture is a +4 to the level of the spell. So what 1st level spell are you going to apply both of them to to get something equal to a 9th level spell?

Lesser Fire Orb, Admixture Acid, Admixture Cold

For an underwhelming 15d8 damage on a Close ranged touch attack.
runestar
10-31-07, 09:06 PM The problem with your idea is the fact that Energy admixture is a +4 to the level of the spell. So what 1st level spell are you going to apply both of them to to get something equal to a 9th level spell?

Or you could apply arcane thesis to the spell, thus reducing the slot adjustment of each metamagic feat you apply to it by 1.

There are many other ways of further lowering slot adjustments, such as incantatrix10, easy metamagic etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if I could crank the slot adjustments down to +0...;)
Lokathor
10-31-07, 09:15 PM Don't forget you can also reduce the level of the spell itself, so in total it'd come out to some mid level value.
Amaranth
10-31-07, 09:29 PM I've seen the incantatrix referenced before and was wondering in what book I might find it... thanks for the help, all.
Jenrock
10-31-07, 09:31 PM Personally, I don't look at it like Energy Admixture (Cold) and Energy Admixture (Fire). To me, it is more like Cold Admixture and Fire Admixture (thus making them different feats). Besides, as has been pointed out, the +8 level price tag should be deterrent enough; if it's not, then they get to deal 15d8 as opposed to 24d6 (which was Meteor Swarm last time I checked).
Jaxgaret
10-31-07, 10:45 PM Scorching Ray would, of course, be the low level spell of choice to use this with.
runestar
11-01-07, 03:21 AM With arcane thesis, incantatrix10 and 2 improved metamagic feats (at epic), a spellcaster can apply all 4 energy admixtures, twin spell, and multiple enhance spells to a direct damage spell for a net +0 spell slot increase.

Throw in maximize or intensify for even more fun. ;)
Merestil Haye
11-01-07, 06:19 AM That's circular logic. AFAICT, you're saying that EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) are the same feat because Energy Sub (Cold) and Energy Sub (Fire) are the same feat, but you didn't explain why ES (Cold) and ES (Fire) are the same feat.I'm saying no such thing.

What I said is, Energy Admixture has text allowing you to take the feat multiple times precisely because Energy Admixture (Cold) and Energy Admixture (Fire) are the same feat. If they were different feats, why would the feat need to state that it can be taken multiple times?

I never mentioned Energy Substitution at all.
deathbane
11-01-07, 09:57 AM With arcane thesis, incantatrix10 and 2 improved metamagic feats (at epic), a spellcaster can apply all 4 energy admixtures, twin spell, and multiple enhance spells to a direct damage spell for a net +0 spell slot increase.

Throw in maximize or intensify for even more fun. ;)

Some might argue that the arcane thesis and improved metamagic overlap instead of stack since they do the same thing. If you have two coupons that make an item cost 50% less that does not make it free.
Jaxgaret
11-02-07, 01:06 AM I'm saying no such thing.

What I said is, Energy Admixture has text allowing you to take the feat multiple times precisely because Energy Admixture (Cold) and Energy Admixture (Fire) are the same feat. If they were different feats, why would the feat need to state that it can be taken multiple times?

I never mentioned Energy Substitution at all.

Oh, okay, that makes more sense.

I thought the "special permission" you were speaking of had to do with Energy Substitution.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amaranth 10-31-07, 11:30 AM	Could energy substitution and energy admixture be taken for more than one element and then the energy admixture feat applied twice, once for each energy type? Thanks
LSMFT 10-31-07, 12:22 PM	Could energy substitution and energy admixture be taken for more than one elementYes. It specifically says it can be taken more than once. and then the energy admixture feat applied twice, once for each energy type? ThanksFrom the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats): "You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."
Amaranth 10-31-07, 05:10 PM	But I see a strong case for call Energy Admixture (cold) a different feat than Energy Admixture (fire) ..... they are two separate feats, each having the metamagic descriptor. Two different feats which are metamagic = two metamagic feats. Not advocating this position at the moment, just saying that its a fairly compelling argument to allow it.
vorpo 10-31-07, 05:13 PM	They are different in my book... Just like Weapon Focus (long sword) is different from Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast). Since Energy Admixture (cold)'s effect is totally different from Energy Admixture (fire), they are different.
larry_the_titan 10-31-07, 05:40 PM	The problem with your idea is the fact that Energy admixture is a +4 to the level of the spell. So what 1st level spell are you going to apply both of them to to get something equal to a 9th level spell?
Merestil Haye 10-31-07, 06:00 PM	But I see a strong case for call Energy Admixture (cold) a different feat than Energy Admixture (fire)Sorry, but they are the same feat. The feat is named Energy Admixture. If the choices made it different feats, then there would not be any need for special permission to take the feat twice - EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) would be different feats and therefore could automatically both be taken. Consider also the PHB feat Melee Weapon Mastery. MWM (Piercing) and MWM (Bludgeoning) provide unnamed bonusses to attack and damage rolls that do not stack together if a creature with both wields a Morningstar. Why? because the feat is Melee Weapon Mastery, whatever damage type it applies to.
Jaxgaret 10-31-07, 07:00 PM	Sorry, but they are the same feat. The feat is named Energy Admixture. If the choices made it different feats, then there would not be any need for special permission to take the feat twice - EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) would be different feats and therefore could automatically both be taken. That's circular logic. AFAICT, you're saying that EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) are the same feat because Energy Sub (Cold) and Energy Sub (Fire) are the same feat, but you didn't explain why ES (Cold) and ES (Fire) are the same feat. I'm not saying that you're wrong, necessarily, but you need to submit more clarification.
Lokathor 10-31-07, 07:14 PM	The problem with your idea is the fact that Energy admixture is a +4 to the level of the spell. So what 1st level spell are you going to apply both of them to to get something equal to a 9th level spell? Lesser Fire Orb, Admixture Acid, Admixture Cold For an underwhelming 15d8 damage on a Close ranged touch attack.
runestar 10-31-07, 09:06 PM	The problem with your idea is the fact that Energy admixture is a +4 to the level of the spell. So what 1st level spell are you going to apply both of them to to get something equal to a 9th level spell? Or you could apply arcane thesis to the spell, thus reducing the slot adjustment of each metamagic feat you apply to it by 1. There are many other ways of further lowering slot adjustments, such as incantatrix10, easy metamagic etc. I wouldn't be surprised if I could crank the slot adjustments down to +0...;)
Lokathor 10-31-07, 09:15 PM	Don't forget you can also reduce the level of the spell itself, so in total it'd come out to some mid level value.
Amaranth 10-31-07, 09:29 PM	I've seen the incantatrix referenced before and was wondering in what book I might find it... thanks for the help, all.
Jenrock 10-31-07, 09:31 PM	Personally, I don't look at it like Energy Admixture (Cold) and Energy Admixture (Fire). To me, it is more like Cold Admixture and Fire Admixture (thus making them different feats). Besides, as has been pointed out, the +8 level price tag should be deterrent enough; if it's not, then they get to deal 15d8 as opposed to 24d6 (which was Meteor Swarm last time I checked).
Jaxgaret 10-31-07, 10:45 PM	Scorching Ray would, of course, be the low level spell of choice to use this with.
runestar 11-01-07, 03:21 AM	With arcane thesis, incantatrix10 and 2 improved metamagic feats (at epic), a spellcaster can apply all 4 energy admixtures, twin spell, and multiple enhance spells to a direct damage spell for a net +0 spell slot increase. Throw in maximize or intensify for even more fun. ;)
Merestil Haye 11-01-07, 06:19 AM	That's circular logic. AFAICT, you're saying that EA (Cold) and EA (Fire) are the same feat because Energy Sub (Cold) and Energy Sub (Fire) are the same feat, but you didn't explain why ES (Cold) and ES (Fire) are the same feat.I'm saying no such thing. What I said is, Energy Admixture has text allowing you to take the feat multiple times precisely because Energy Admixture (Cold) and Energy Admixture (Fire) are the same feat. If they were different feats, why would the feat need to state that it can be taken multiple times? I never mentioned Energy Substitution at all.
deathbane 11-01-07, 09:57 AM	With arcane thesis, incantatrix10 and 2 improved metamagic feats (at epic), a spellcaster can apply all 4 energy admixtures, twin spell, and multiple enhance spells to a direct damage spell for a net +0 spell slot increase. Throw in maximize or intensify for even more fun. ;) Some might argue that the arcane thesis and improved metamagic overlap instead of stack since they do the same thing. If you have two coupons that make an item cost 50% less that does not make it free.
Jaxgaret 11-02-07, 01:06 AM	I'm saying no such thing. What I said is, Energy Admixture has text allowing you to take the feat multiple times precisely because Energy Admixture (Cold) and Energy Admixture (Fire) are the same feat. If they were different feats, why would the feat need to state that it can be taken multiple times? I never mentioned Energy Substitution at all. Oh, okay, that makes more sense. I thought the "special permission" you were speaking of had to do with Energy Substitution.