Enlarge Spell Feat - uses? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Enlarge Spell Feat - uses? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hapycamper
02-23-08, 12:40 PM I'm making a War Weaver and since I need to take the Enlarge Spell feat to qualify, I was curious what people thought were cool uses of the metamagic feat?

Our group tends to fight rather short-ranged combats so I'm rarely out of range of almost any of my spells...

Not that it matters too much, but I'm playing a human (non-specialist) wizard (with Augmented Summoning) who likes to make wondrous magic items and collect lots of different spells. (Sort of the "utility belt/controller" style of wizard rather than a ranged blaster...)
kjenks
02-23-08, 01:31 PM Orb spells.
Hapycamper
02-24-08, 02:43 PM Orb spells.

Is that just because they are all close range and you want to make the spells go further, or are you trying to get more orb spells in general (taking up level 2 & level 5 slots instead of level 1 & 4 slots) or just increasing the DC of the saves by making them level 5?

As I mentioned, our combats are usually pretty tight, even close range is rarely too far out of range...
Rymosrac
02-24-08, 02:52 PM Spells aren't treated as higher level when you apply metamagic to them for purposes of determining save DC or whatever, with the exception of the heighten spell metamagic feat, which does exacty that. an enlarged spell still counts as the original spell lever for determining save DCs and anything else dependent on spell level.
kjenks
02-24-08, 03:01 PM If you're in a continuous dungeon crawl or other situation where the monsters are always right on top of you, there are much better feats for you to take.
Nathreet
02-24-08, 03:42 PM http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20spellfilter/
For a list of spells with a short range, set range to "close" and click "filter spells".
Sildatorak
02-25-08, 12:09 AM As I mentioned, our combats are usually pretty tight, even close range is rarely too far out of range...
Then enlarge spell is mostly going to be one of those "waste a feat to get into a PrC" feats since it can only be applied to close, medium, and long spells.

I would say make the most of it and also take some feats that have "one other metamagic feat" as a prereq (sudden maximize springs to mind).
rjsilverthorn
02-25-08, 06:37 AM Then enlarge spell is mostly going to be one of those "waste a feat to get into a PrC" feats since it can only be applied to close, medium, and long spells.

I would say make the most of it and also take some feats that have "one other metamagic feat" as a prereq (sudden maximize springs to mind).

That is pretty much what it has ended up being for mean, although I definitely think it was worth the price of admission for War Weaver.

Am I the only one that things Enlarge is poorly named by the way? To me, it has always sounded like it should increase the area for AoE spells instead of increasing the range.
narack
02-25-08, 12:35 PM Black Tentacle enlarged can become a huge assets when fighting huge mobs.
Naderion
02-25-08, 01:52 PM But enlarge spell doesn't help here either.

The main use for enlarge spell is to be able to hurl spells at enemies in the distance while they are still trying to reach the caster. It's mostly an outdoor ability that doesn't have any real use in dungeons. Maybe some spells with a range of "close" could make use of it, but there are usually enough spells with medium range that could be used there as well.
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified
02-25-08, 03:06 PM Black Tentacle enlarged can become a huge assets when fighting huge mobs.

I think you are thinking of "Widen Spell". "Enlarge" increases the range of the spell, not its area of effect.

As for the OP, if you are always at close range, then Enlarged Spells won't do much. One thing though, you are allowed to fill up 2nd, 3rd, etc. level spell slots with first level spells. You do not need to metamagic them for that. Most people don't do that because higher level spells are generally better, and so it "wastes" power to use spell slots like that.
solbergb
02-25-08, 03:14 PM I used enlarge spell quite a bit on my sorceress, only retraining it out when "close" range was 60' at level 14.

I had it originally mostly for her utility spells (mage hand, open/close, unseen servant, tenser's disc, servant horde) which allowed remote manipulation BEYOND "close" range burst trap areas and in the case of the latter spells extended the "leash" beyond which she could not move without causing the spells to end. She also used it quite a bit for "grease" in the level 5-9ish range as "close" was "too close for comfort" a lot of the time, and also before she had rapid metamagic, a sculpted grease would lock her in place, meaning she needed to enlarge it as well to get it to the target sometimes.

In levels 10-13, enlarged evards tentacles sometimes were used to shut down long range spellcasters or archers, working in the 500'ish range, or 1000'ish range if she was also mounted on her phantom steed.

With rapid metamagic, enlarged feather falls sometimes came into play.

The basic "close range is too close for safety" and "I can't move when I use metamagic, so to hit the target I need enlarge spell" is a dynamic that applies to nearly any offensive caster, and is one of the reason warmages tend to get good use out of their bonus sudden enlarge feat. Doesn't come up that often, but when it does it is nice to have.

On a prepared caster, rather than a spontaneous caster, I don't see the feat getting much if any use. For them, spending 3000gp for a lesser metamagic rod of enlarge gives most of the benefit.
aelryinth
02-25-08, 03:49 PM I concur with the above, for most casters.

For your War Weaver, why don't you consider taking Efficient Metamagic (Enlarge Spell) and reducing the LA to 0? That way you can apply it to all of your spells for free...

Also note, that spells where range=area (for things like Cones and Bolts), you are at least doubling the area the spells cover (actually, x4 or 8 for the cones...) because the AoE is equal to the range. So Enlarge can indeed come in handy for some other spells. Just think creatively.

===Aelryinth
rjsilverthorn
02-25-08, 04:19 PM Also note, that spells where range=area (for things like Cones and Bolts), you are at least doubling the area the spells cover (actually, x4 or 8 for the cones...) because the AoE is equal to the range. So Enlarge can indeed come in handy for some other spells. Just think creatively.

===Aelryinth

Unfortunately I don't think that works. Enlarge says spells without a range of close, medium or long are not affected. Since most line and cone spells have a fixed range I don't think they are eligible for Enlarge.

ENLARGE SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level, while medium-range spells have a range of 200 ft. + 20 ft./level and long-range spells have a range of 800 ft. + 80 ft./level. An enlarged spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, do not have increased ranges.
Hapycamper
02-26-08, 10:18 PM I concur with the above, for most casters.
For your War Weaver, why don't you consider taking Efficient Metamagic (Enlarge Spell) and reducing the LA to 0? That way you can apply it to all of your spells for free...
===Aelryinth

I think this doesn't work either. I believe Efficient Metamagic can only be applied to metamagic things that have an EL of at least +2.
solbergb
02-27-08, 07:17 PM Unfortunately I don't think that works. Enlarge says spells without a range of close, medium or long are not affected. Since most line and cone spells have a fixed range I don't think they are eligible for Enlarge.

Correct. Only if you have an oddball thing like a "area: cone whose size = range of close" would the spell work.

One reason I felt ok about ditching it at level 14 is that I had two fixed-range spells (gust of wind and whirling blade) that were also at 60' and that was aestheticlly pleasing...
Axiomatic_vampire
02-28-08, 06:10 AM It sounds like your party plays it exactly the way that makes enlarge nearly useless. Enlarge is really, in my experience, useful for close range (save or die) spells to avoid getting to close for comfort, and long range (blast) spells, to attack out of bow-shot. Both are nice tactics, and your party and wizard don't seem geared to take advantage of either. As far as the long range blasting goes, that's not a lot of fun for the rest of the party, so I wouldn't push for them to modify their tactics if they aren't interested in watching you work while they twiddle their greatswords.
Cifer
02-28-08, 02:44 PM Or you could ask the DM for some combats that at least start at high range. After all, you can cover more than 100 feet in a round easily by running.
aelryinth
02-29-08, 03:03 PM You are absolutely correct on the bolts and cones. Hmm, must be a holdover from the old days, where range and area amounted to the same thing for those. Looks like it only applies to rays now!

As for the efficient metamagic, the Epic version affects all MM feats, down to a minimum mod of 1...I can't seem to find the feat that allows you to pick one feat and lower its mod by 1. You could very well be correct. So many feats to remember the particulars of!

===Aelryinth
rjsilverthorn
02-29-08, 03:35 PM You are absolutely correct on the bolts and cones. Hmm, must be a holdover from the old days, where range and area amounted to the same thing for those. Looks like it only applies to rays now!

As for the efficient metamagic, the Epic version affects all MM feats, down to a minimum mod of 1...I can't seem to find the feat that allows you to pick one feat and lower its mod by 1. You could very well be correct. So many feats to remember the particulars of!

===Aelryinth

Practical Metamagic, Races of the Dragon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hapycamper 02-23-08, 12:40 PM	I'm making a War Weaver and since I need to take the Enlarge Spell feat to qualify, I was curious what people thought were cool uses of the metamagic feat? Our group tends to fight rather short-ranged combats so I'm rarely out of range of almost any of my spells... Not that it matters too much, but I'm playing a human (non-specialist) wizard (with Augmented Summoning) who likes to make wondrous magic items and collect lots of different spells. (Sort of the "utility belt/controller" style of wizard rather than a ranged blaster...)
kjenks 02-23-08, 01:31 PM	Orb spells.
Hapycamper 02-24-08, 02:43 PM	Orb spells. Is that just because they are all close range and you want to make the spells go further, or are you trying to get more orb spells in general (taking up level 2 & level 5 slots instead of level 1 & 4 slots) or just increasing the DC of the saves by making them level 5? As I mentioned, our combats are usually pretty tight, even close range is rarely too far out of range...
Rymosrac 02-24-08, 02:52 PM	Spells aren't treated as higher level when you apply metamagic to them for purposes of determining save DC or whatever, with the exception of the heighten spell metamagic feat, which does exacty that. an enlarged spell still counts as the original spell lever for determining save DCs and anything else dependent on spell level.
kjenks 02-24-08, 03:01 PM	If you're in a continuous dungeon crawl or other situation where the monsters are always right on top of you, there are much better feats for you to take.
Nathreet 02-24-08, 03:42 PM	http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20spellfilter/ For a list of spells with a short range, set range to "close" and click "filter spells".
Sildatorak 02-25-08, 12:09 AM	As I mentioned, our combats are usually pretty tight, even close range is rarely too far out of range... Then enlarge spell is mostly going to be one of those "waste a feat to get into a PrC" feats since it can only be applied to close, medium, and long spells. I would say make the most of it and also take some feats that have "one other metamagic feat" as a prereq (sudden maximize springs to mind).
rjsilverthorn 02-25-08, 06:37 AM	Then enlarge spell is mostly going to be one of those "waste a feat to get into a PrC" feats since it can only be applied to close, medium, and long spells. I would say make the most of it and also take some feats that have "one other metamagic feat" as a prereq (sudden maximize springs to mind). That is pretty much what it has ended up being for mean, although I definitely think it was worth the price of admission for War Weaver. Am I the only one that things Enlarge is poorly named by the way? To me, it has always sounded like it should increase the area for AoE spells instead of increasing the range.
narack 02-25-08, 12:35 PM	Black Tentacle enlarged can become a huge assets when fighting huge mobs.
Naderion 02-25-08, 01:52 PM	But enlarge spell doesn't help here either. The main use for enlarge spell is to be able to hurl spells at enemies in the distance while they are still trying to reach the caster. It's mostly an outdoor ability that doesn't have any real use in dungeons. Maybe some spells with a range of "close" could make use of it, but there are usually enough spells with medium range that could be used there as well.
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified 02-25-08, 03:06 PM	Black Tentacle enlarged can become a huge assets when fighting huge mobs. I think you are thinking of "Widen Spell". "Enlarge" increases the range of the spell, not its area of effect. As for the OP, if you are always at close range, then Enlarged Spells won't do much. One thing though, you are allowed to fill up 2nd, 3rd, etc. level spell slots with first level spells. You do not need to metamagic them for that. Most people don't do that because higher level spells are generally better, and so it "wastes" power to use spell slots like that.
solbergb 02-25-08, 03:14 PM	I used enlarge spell quite a bit on my sorceress, only retraining it out when "close" range was 60' at level 14. I had it originally mostly for her utility spells (mage hand, open/close, unseen servant, tenser's disc, servant horde) which allowed remote manipulation BEYOND "close" range burst trap areas and in the case of the latter spells extended the "leash" beyond which she could not move without causing the spells to end. She also used it quite a bit for "grease" in the level 5-9ish range as "close" was "too close for comfort" a lot of the time, and also before she had rapid metamagic, a sculpted grease would lock her in place, meaning she needed to enlarge it as well to get it to the target sometimes. In levels 10-13, enlarged evards tentacles sometimes were used to shut down long range spellcasters or archers, working in the 500'ish range, or 1000'ish range if she was also mounted on her phantom steed. With rapid metamagic, enlarged feather falls sometimes came into play. The basic "close range is too close for safety" and "I can't move when I use metamagic, so to hit the target I need enlarge spell" is a dynamic that applies to nearly any offensive caster, and is one of the reason warmages tend to get good use out of their bonus sudden enlarge feat. Doesn't come up that often, but when it does it is nice to have. On a prepared caster, rather than a spontaneous caster, I don't see the feat getting much if any use. For them, spending 3000gp for a lesser metamagic rod of enlarge gives most of the benefit.
aelryinth 02-25-08, 03:49 PM	I concur with the above, for most casters. For your War Weaver, why don't you consider taking Efficient Metamagic (Enlarge Spell) and reducing the LA to 0? That way you can apply it to all of your spells for free... Also note, that spells where range=area (for things like Cones and Bolts), you are at least doubling the area the spells cover (actually, x4 or 8 for the cones...) because the AoE is equal to the range. So Enlarge can indeed come in handy for some other spells. Just think creatively. ===Aelryinth
rjsilverthorn 02-25-08, 04:19 PM	Also note, that spells where range=area (for things like Cones and Bolts), you are at least doubling the area the spells cover (actually, x4 or 8 for the cones...) because the AoE is equal to the range. So Enlarge can indeed come in handy for some other spells. Just think creatively. ===Aelryinth Unfortunately I don't think that works. Enlarge says spells without a range of close, medium or long are not affected. Since most line and cone spells have a fixed range I don't think they are eligible for Enlarge. ENLARGE SPELL [METAMAGIC] Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level, while medium-range spells have a range of 200 ft. + 20 ft./level and long-range spells have a range of 800 ft. + 80 ft./level. An enlarged spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level. Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, do not have increased ranges.
Hapycamper 02-26-08, 10:18 PM	I concur with the above, for most casters. For your War Weaver, why don't you consider taking Efficient Metamagic (Enlarge Spell) and reducing the LA to 0? That way you can apply it to all of your spells for free... ===Aelryinth I think this doesn't work either. I believe Efficient Metamagic can only be applied to metamagic things that have an EL of at least +2.
solbergb 02-27-08, 07:17 PM	Unfortunately I don't think that works. Enlarge says spells without a range of close, medium or long are not affected. Since most line and cone spells have a fixed range I don't think they are eligible for Enlarge. Correct. Only if you have an oddball thing like a "area: cone whose size = range of close" would the spell work. One reason I felt ok about ditching it at level 14 is that I had two fixed-range spells (gust of wind and whirling blade) that were also at 60' and that was aestheticlly pleasing...
Axiomatic_vampire 02-28-08, 06:10 AM	It sounds like your party plays it exactly the way that makes enlarge nearly useless. Enlarge is really, in my experience, useful for close range (save or die) spells to avoid getting to close for comfort, and long range (blast) spells, to attack out of bow-shot. Both are nice tactics, and your party and wizard don't seem geared to take advantage of either. As far as the long range blasting goes, that's not a lot of fun for the rest of the party, so I wouldn't push for them to modify their tactics if they aren't interested in watching you work while they twiddle their greatswords.
Cifer 02-28-08, 02:44 PM	Or you could ask the DM for some combats that at least start at high range. After all, you can cover more than 100 feet in a round easily by running.
aelryinth 02-29-08, 03:03 PM	You are absolutely correct on the bolts and cones. Hmm, must be a holdover from the old days, where range and area amounted to the same thing for those. Looks like it only applies to rays now! As for the efficient metamagic, the Epic version affects all MM feats, down to a minimum mod of 1...I can't seem to find the feat that allows you to pick one feat and lower its mod by 1. You could very well be correct. So many feats to remember the particulars of! ===Aelryinth
rjsilverthorn 02-29-08, 03:35 PM	You are absolutely correct on the bolts and cones. Hmm, must be a holdover from the old days, where range and area amounted to the same thing for those. Looks like it only applies to rays now! As for the efficient metamagic, the Epic version affects all MM feats, down to a minimum mod of 1...I can't seem to find the feat that allows you to pick one feat and lower its mod by 1. You could very well be correct. So many feats to remember the particulars of! ===Aelryinth Practical Metamagic, Races of the Dragon.