Evasion from two seperate classes???? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Evasion from two seperate classes???? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ScoutValas
09-14-07, 02:57 PM I am playing a Rogue 5/Fighter 2/Shadowdancer 2 in an online campaign. I was wondering what you all have seen done when you gain the same ability from two different classes like the evasion class feature you gain from Rogue and Shadowdancer. I have always played it like Uncanny Dodge. If you gain it from two seperate classes then the second time you gain it instead of essentially losing a class ability it becomes Improved Evasion instead.

Let me know what you think??? How do you handle this???
tarkin
09-14-07, 03:17 PM Sage/FAQ has expressley stated it does NOT work like that.

Uncanny Dodge expressely says it works the way it does. They did not say anything similar for evasion, so that means it does not work like that.
Puca
09-14-07, 03:17 PM I dont handle it. You have the same ability twice. Sorry. You could have gotten to Shadow Dancer in any one of several ways. You picked one with a redundant ability issue. You knew it was going to turn out that way from the momement your rogue took a rank in Perform (dance).

The one you picked also gave you the most possible skill points and 3d6 SA. You want to keep those? Thought so.
Hsien
09-14-07, 03:21 PM That's 3.0 not 3.5, sorry.
There are a few PrC that do what you want but Shadowdancer is not one of them.

Just to show the difference the PrC Master Thrower, CoWar, provides Evasion at MT2 and that decription text does specify that it gives Impv Evasion if the character already has Evasion from another class.
ScoutValas
09-14-07, 03:26 PM Thanks for the responses. My old DM used to house rule that it became Improved so I was just wondering if anyone else did it that way or not? I should have checked with my new DM to see if he did anything similar. Oh well lesson learned. Again thanks for the quick replies.
EjoThims
09-14-07, 04:29 PM Because most of the newwer 3.5 PrCs do specify that they grant Imp Evasion if the Evasion is redundant, I've seen most DMs houseruling that it works this way for all classes.
tarkin
09-14-07, 04:40 PM That indicates to me that you have some House Ruling DM's, probably power gaming.

For the very SAME reason, the opposite happens at WoTC approved games.

If they wanted it to stack, they would have said so. Designers know they have to state this and do do this. The fact that they did NOT say they stacked for that particular PrC while other PrC's do say it stacked means the desginer decided not to let it stack.

Your logic is basically that the game designers are foolish and made a mistake. Mine (and WoTC's) is that the game designers wrote what they meant.
EjoThims
09-14-07, 04:48 PM Wish they did that with all the abilities.

ANd that they would clarify that with all the abilities that interacted in unpredictable ways with new abilities that came out.

But design philosophy changes over time, and many of the DMs I know think that if the new trend is for classes to allow this, classes written or updated before that trend should allow it to.

But, as I stated, this is a houserule. Officially they only stack if the second class granting the ability specifically states that they do.
runestar
09-14-07, 10:12 PM I am not sure how overpowering it would be to let them stack.

The 2 classes acquiring evasion will likely have good reflex saves. When multiclassed, this implies his reflex saves will be even better compared to say, a straight classed rogue.

All in all, he should consistently be making his reflex save, so improved evasion would never really kick in save for that natural 1.

Doesn't seem that problematic...
yrogerg
09-14-07, 10:24 PM I am not sure how overpowering it would be to let them stack.

The 2 classes acquiring evasion will likely have good reflex saves. When multiclassed, this implies his reflex saves will be even better compared to say, a straight classed rogue.

Depends on how you count. Most games I've played in use the variant rule you only get the initial 2 1/2 the first time you take a level in a class that has that Good save, and you otherwise add the fractional BAB/saves, rounding down, naturally. It minimizes the counter-intuitive wonkiness of multiclassing between Rogue, Ninja, Spellthief and Scout and ending up with a character with a +8 Base Reflex Save Bonus and +0 BAB at level 4.

Instead, you end up with +4 Base Reflex and +3 BAB, just like the straight-class rogue would have ended up with. Which makes sense, since you're really just being a rogue in four slightly different ways.
StevenO
09-14-07, 10:48 PM By RAW they don't stack into improved evasion (IE) unless specified. Many of the newer PrC that grant evasion DO allow the second occurance to become IE. It does seem to vary some by book (either all the evasion granting PrCs have it or none of them do) but I believe it is fine to allow PrC evasion to stack into IE; I would not allow base class evasion (Rogue/Monk) to do so however.

I agree with runestar that letting them stack isn't overpowering because those should be the characters that already make most of their Reflex Saves. I worked out the math last time I posted on this topic using a 60dmg hit 20 times (one roll each number) that a character making 90% of their Reflex Saves take 55/10/5% of full damage based on no evasion/ evasion/ IE while a character who only makes 30% of their saves takes 85/70/35% under the same conditions. Assuming the character with "double" evasion is making most of their reflex saves anyway granting them IE may not save the much overall damage but does make them a little easier to plan for as you don't have that 1 time in 20 where they take massive damage you, as a DM, expected them to avoid completely.
kalstrand
09-15-07, 10:41 AM Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion.
StevenO
09-15-07, 02:32 PM Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion.
That is part of the reason to at least restrict stacking to Evasion from PrC sources. Of course that Rog2/Monk2 has a Reflex Save of at least +6 and most likely +8 or higher but the save from a 4th level caster should only be DC 14-15 (10+2(spell level)+2 or 3 (stat) so they should be making that save more often than not anyway.
runestar
09-15-07, 10:12 PM Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion.

Which is problematic only if you normally expect them to be failing their reflex saves a fair amount of the time. As pointed out earlier, that might not necessarily be the case.:)
leif008
09-16-07, 03:48 AM Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion.

As a Rogue 2/ Monk 2 I'd much rather have Evasion + Spell Reflection from Complete Mage. Improved Evasion is garbage compared to the ability to redirect missed ranged touch attacks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ScoutValas 09-14-07, 02:57 PM	I am playing a Rogue 5/Fighter 2/Shadowdancer 2 in an online campaign. I was wondering what you all have seen done when you gain the same ability from two different classes like the evasion class feature you gain from Rogue and Shadowdancer. I have always played it like Uncanny Dodge. If you gain it from two seperate classes then the second time you gain it instead of essentially losing a class ability it becomes Improved Evasion instead. Let me know what you think??? How do you handle this???
tarkin 09-14-07, 03:17 PM	Sage/FAQ has expressley stated it does NOT work like that. Uncanny Dodge expressely says it works the way it does. They did not say anything similar for evasion, so that means it does not work like that.
Puca 09-14-07, 03:17 PM	I dont handle it. You have the same ability twice. Sorry. You could have gotten to Shadow Dancer in any one of several ways. You picked one with a redundant ability issue. You knew it was going to turn out that way from the momement your rogue took a rank in Perform (dance). The one you picked also gave you the most possible skill points and 3d6 SA. You want to keep those? Thought so.
Hsien 09-14-07, 03:21 PM	That's 3.0 not 3.5, sorry. There are a few PrC that do what you want but Shadowdancer is not one of them. Just to show the difference the PrC Master Thrower, CoWar, provides Evasion at MT2 and that decription text does specify that it gives Impv Evasion if the character already has Evasion from another class.
ScoutValas 09-14-07, 03:26 PM	Thanks for the responses. My old DM used to house rule that it became Improved so I was just wondering if anyone else did it that way or not? I should have checked with my new DM to see if he did anything similar. Oh well lesson learned. Again thanks for the quick replies.
EjoThims 09-14-07, 04:29 PM	Because most of the newwer 3.5 PrCs do specify that they grant Imp Evasion if the Evasion is redundant, I've seen most DMs houseruling that it works this way for all classes.
tarkin 09-14-07, 04:40 PM	That indicates to me that you have some House Ruling DM's, probably power gaming. For the very SAME reason, the opposite happens at WoTC approved games. If they wanted it to stack, they would have said so. Designers know they have to state this and do do this. The fact that they did NOT say they stacked for that particular PrC while other PrC's do say it stacked means the desginer decided not to let it stack. Your logic is basically that the game designers are foolish and made a mistake. Mine (and WoTC's) is that the game designers wrote what they meant.
EjoThims 09-14-07, 04:48 PM	Wish they did that with all the abilities. ANd that they would clarify that with all the abilities that interacted in unpredictable ways with new abilities that came out. But design philosophy changes over time, and many of the DMs I know think that if the new trend is for classes to allow this, classes written or updated before that trend should allow it to. But, as I stated, this is a houserule. Officially they only stack if the second class granting the ability specifically states that they do.
runestar 09-14-07, 10:12 PM	I am not sure how overpowering it would be to let them stack. The 2 classes acquiring evasion will likely have good reflex saves. When multiclassed, this implies his reflex saves will be even better compared to say, a straight classed rogue. All in all, he should consistently be making his reflex save, so improved evasion would never really kick in save for that natural 1. Doesn't seem that problematic...
yrogerg 09-14-07, 10:24 PM	I am not sure how overpowering it would be to let them stack. The 2 classes acquiring evasion will likely have good reflex saves. When multiclassed, this implies his reflex saves will be even better compared to say, a straight classed rogue. Depends on how you count. Most games I've played in use the variant rule you only get the initial 2 1/2 the first time you take a level in a class that has that Good save, and you otherwise add the fractional BAB/saves, rounding down, naturally. It minimizes the counter-intuitive wonkiness of multiclassing between Rogue, Ninja, Spellthief and Scout and ending up with a character with a +8 Base Reflex Save Bonus and +0 BAB at level 4. Instead, you end up with +4 Base Reflex and +3 BAB, just like the straight-class rogue would have ended up with. Which makes sense, since you're really just being a rogue in four slightly different ways.
StevenO 09-14-07, 10:48 PM	By RAW they don't stack into improved evasion (IE) unless specified. Many of the newer PrC that grant evasion DO allow the second occurance to become IE. It does seem to vary some by book (either all the evasion granting PrCs have it or none of them do) but I believe it is fine to allow PrC evasion to stack into IE; I would not allow base class evasion (Rogue/Monk) to do so however. I agree with runestar that letting them stack isn't overpowering because those should be the characters that already make most of their Reflex Saves. I worked out the math last time I posted on this topic using a 60dmg hit 20 times (one roll each number) that a character making 90% of their Reflex Saves take 55/10/5% of full damage based on no evasion/ evasion/ IE while a character who only makes 30% of their saves takes 85/70/35% under the same conditions. Assuming the character with "double" evasion is making most of their reflex saves anyway granting them IE may not save the much overall damage but does make them a little easier to plan for as you don't have that 1 time in 20 where they take massive damage you, as a DM, expected them to avoid completely.
kalstrand 09-15-07, 10:41 AM	Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion.
StevenO 09-15-07, 02:32 PM	Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion. That is part of the reason to at least restrict stacking to Evasion from PrC sources. Of course that Rog2/Monk2 has a Reflex Save of at least +6 and most likely +8 or higher but the save from a 4th level caster should only be DC 14-15 (10+2(spell level)+2 or 3 (stat) so they should be making that save more often than not anyway.
runestar 09-15-07, 10:12 PM	Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion. Which is problematic only if you normally expect them to be failing their reflex saves a fair amount of the time. As pointed out earlier, that might not necessarily be the case.:)
leif008 09-16-07, 03:48 AM	Just keep in mind if you let them stack you will find Rogue 2/ Monk 2's running around with Improved Evasion. As a Rogue 2/ Monk 2 I'd much rather have Evasion + Spell Reflection from Complete Mage. Improved Evasion is garbage compared to the ability to redirect missed ranged touch attacks.