Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alqamar Alaswad 11-12-07, 08:17 AM	I've been taught: when in doubt, ask the experts. I'm not a D&D player; I play it every week, and have been doing it for two years, but I'm still unable to find answers to many rules questions. Does anybody know if the enhancement bonus given to ability scores by the Vow of Povery (Exalted feat) gives a character additional skill points if aplied to Intelligence? I guess it doesn't (since magical items giving enhancement bonus, such as Headbands of Intellect, explicitly don't give you additional skill points), but since it's not mentioned anywhere, I can't be sure. Can anyone help me?
Merestil Haye 11-12-07, 09:11 AM	I've been taught: when in doubt, ask the experts. I'm not a D&D player; I play it every week, and have been doing it for two years, but I'm still unable to find answers to many rules questions. Does anybody know if the enhancement bonus given to ability scores by the Vow of Povery (Exalted feat) gives a character additional skill points if aplied to Intelligence? I guess it doesn't (since magical items giving enhancement bonus, such as Headbands of Intellect, explicitly don't give you additional skill points), but since it's not mentioned anywhere, I can't be sure. Can anyone help me?Interesting question. The rules discuss how items and effects that vary Intelligence affect skillpoints on levelling up. It breaks them down into permanent changes and temporary changes. Permanent changes affect the number of skill points gained when levelling up, while temporary ones do not. See PHB page 58 under the heading 6. Skill Points. Temporary changes are ability damage and enhancement bonuses from spells and items. Permanent changes include not only inherent bonuses and increases from levels, but also ability drain. Thus by "permanent change" it appears to mean things that won't go away of their own accord (unless that effect derives from an item). Feeblemind would probably fall into the "permanent change" camp. It has to be actively reversed to restore the character's Int (as ability drain does.) My gut feeling is that Vow of Poverty (despite giving an enhancement bonus) is not a temporary increase. It's not something that goes away by itself with time, and it's not something that the character can lose and regain. On the other hand, the character can voluntarily give up the benefits to Vow of Poverty at any time simply by deciding to do something that is not Good, much as he can simply decide to remove the item. The one difference here is that once given up, the benefits of Vow of Poverty can never be regained. Thus I would rule it a permanent enhancement and allow the character to gain extra skill points. Other DMs may come down on the other side, and that wouldn't worry me so long as they'd put some thought into it.
Alqamar Alaswad 11-12-07, 09:19 AM	Thanks a lot! Your reasoning sounds good, so it's good with me.
risner 11-12-07, 11:45 AM	Thus I would rule it a permanent enhancement and allow the character to gain extra skill points. Other DMs may come down on the other side, and that wouldn't worry me so long as they'd put some thought into it. If I allowed skill points, the character would need to redo his character in the event of losing the Vow (which may be hard considering some would have likely been used for pre-reqs for other classes?) In short, I don't have a problem with your suggestion except how to handle the complication if/when he loses the vow. Because of this, I would list it as an extremely long duration temporary effect.
Merestil Haye 11-12-07, 02:01 PM	Here's mine. Skill points are not skill ranks. Once a rank is purchased, it is something the character knows and does not lose under any circumstances. Firstly, characters who permanently lose Int (whether from spells, effects or ability drain) don't lose skill ranks. Secondly, an Assassin who becomes nonevil loses Assassin class features, but not skill ranks purchased with points gained at those Assassin levels. Thus I'd argue that you keep the skill ranks already purchased.
Tordak 11-13-07, 09:54 AM	Enhancement bonus don't usually grant extra skill points and do not count in the int bonus when gaining level to determine extra skill points. The only 2 examples of enhancement bonus I'm aware of(aside from vow of povety) are bonus from spells and objects. However, it is explicitly stated in the description of both that increases in intelligence due to enhacement bonus do not grant additionnal skill points; I don't know if this can help you, but as far as I can remember there is no such mention in the description of vow of poverty. So the increase from the vow could count when determining bonus skill points when gaining level. However this remains a touchy issue because - It is not a permanent increase; it is only a [enhancement] bonus from a feat (more or less permanent), and not an actual increase to the int score; only actual increase (and decrease) influence skill points, usually. - These benefit where meant to provide the vower with way to compensate for the lack of magic items and keep up with other players; players gaining an enhancement bonus to intelligence from an object would not gain the benefice of increased skill points when they advance level, why should the vower? - It's probably not abusive seeing how it is scaled and accesible only to higher level of the game and since increases in int does not apply retroactively (to skill points), the benefit is good but not broken.
Alqamar Alaswad 11-14-07, 05:53 AM	Since enhancement bonus from spells and objects explicitly say that they don't grant more skill points, and Vow of Poverty doesn't, we could think that the authors didn't mention it explicitly because, in fact, it does grant more skill points. It seems this is a blurry question, and not as stupid as I thought it was.
Danmation 11-27-07, 02:38 PM	I think one of the reasons for calling the stat bonuses 'enhancement' bonuses is because the writers didn't want Fox's Cunning of Bull's Strength to be plopped onto a VOP character by a friendly Cleric and have the bonuses stack. A question that has a little more bite to it is as follows: A Sorceror takes VOP and adds to his Charisma. Does the bonus count for bonus spells? If it doesn't (and I'm inclined to say it doesn't), then I don't see how you could count toward skill points for INT. I'm sure that topic has been covered in the boards elsewhere...