Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Otto the Bugbear 06-10-07, 12:20 PM	Hey all, I've recently added some expanded skill abilities for my players, and I wanted to get a lot more people looking at them to get some opinions and feedback. I've been told this resembles Skill Tricks somewhat, but as I don't have Complete Scoundrel, I haven't been able to cross-reference that claim. Anyway, I'm basically looking for balance issues or loopholes that might cause problems. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Expanded Skill Abilities: Characters may expend their skill points to gain special uses of a skill. Each time a character gains a level, he may opt to gain one or more of the following expanded skill abilities instead of spending those skill points to gain ranks in skills (though the character may gain some ranks, and unlock some expanded abilities, depending upon how he decides to spend each individual skill point). A character must spend the required skill points all at one time; he may not partially purchase one of the expanded skill abilities. This means that characters that gain a low number of skill points each level may not be able to unlock the more powerful expanded skill abilities. A character’s level must be three times the amount of points the expanded ability costs before it can be chosen. Appraise 1 point: If your Appraise check beats the DC to determine the value of an object by at least 10, you can appraise the value of each object in 1d4 rounds, instead of 1 minute. 2 points: With a DC 24 Appraise check, you can detect magic when you handle one object for one minute. You may use this as often as you like, but must start over with a new skill check for each new item. Failure means that you will not get a result on that item until you have gained at least one more level. You may not take 10 or take 20 on this check. 3 points: If your Appraise check beats the DC to determine the value of an object by at least 10, you can appraise the value of each object as a full-round action. 4 points: With a DC 28 Appraise check, you can identify one object by appraising it for 10 minutes. You may use this as often as you like, but must start over with a new Appraise check for each new item. Each item beyond the first that you attempt to identify in this manner each day raises the DC by 2. Failure means you may not identify that item until you have gained at least one more level. You may not take 10 or take 20 on this check. 5 points: If your Appraise check beats the DC to determine the value of an object by at least 10, you can appraise the value of each object as a swift action. Balance 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when balancing. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: If you beat the Balance check DC by 5 or more, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC while balancing. 3 points: You can ignore the penalty for moving your full speed (see Accelerated Movement above) while balancing. 4 points: You may take 10 when making a Balance check even when threatened or distracted. If you can already take 10 from another source (such as the Rogue Talent Skill Mastery), you instead gain a +4 competence bonus on this check. Bluff 1 point: You may feint in combat as a move action 3 points: You may feint in combat as a swift action 5 points: You may feint in combat as an immediate action Climb 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when climbing. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: If you beat the Climb DC by 5 or more, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing. 3 points: You may take 10 when making a Climb check even when threatened or distracted. If you can already take 10 from another source (such as the Rogue Talent Skill Mastery), you instead gain a +4 competence bonus on this check. 4 points: You may move at half your base speed while climbing, instead of one-quarter your speed, without penalty. 5 points: With a DC 28 check, you may use spider climb as a spell-like ability. You may use this up to 3 times per day, with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one of the daily uses. Normal: You apply the armor check penalty to Climb checks, even if you are proficient with the armor. You loose your Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing. You move at one-quarter your base speed while climbing. Concentration 1 point: With a DC 20 check, concentration on an ongoing spell effect instead only takes a move action. The DC for this raises by 2 for every consecutive round you use this ability. If you fail the check, concentrating on that spell takes a standard action and it still raises by 2 for the next consecutive round you attempt this. During any round that you do not attempt this skill check, the DC drops by 2, to a minimum DC of 20. 2 points: You may take 5 on concentration checks. 3 points: With a DC 25 check, concentration on an ongoing spell effect instead only takes a swift action. The DC for this raises by 3 for every consecutive round you use this ability. If you fail the check, concentrating on that spell takes a standard action and it still raises by 3 for the next consecutive round you attempt this. During any round that you do not attempt this skill check, the DC drops by 3, to a minimum DC of 25. 4 points: You may take 10 on concentration checks. Craft Crafting Magic Items: Feats to create magic items are gone. In their place, a character with the appropriate ranks in craft and the required spells can create magic items related to that craft. For this purpose, craft is divided into several different skills: Bowyer / Fletcher - creates, improves or changes magical bows, crossbows, bolts, and arrows. Weaponsmithing – creates, improves or changes magical weapons not included in bowyer/fletcher. Armorsmithing - creates, improves or changes magical armor, shields, and helms. Blacksmithing – creates, improves or changes magical items traditionally created by a blacksmith, such as chain, horseshoes, metal boxes/crates, iron doors, and gates. Woodworking – creates, improves or changes magical items traditionally created by a carpenter, such as boats, doors, homes, and wagons. Masonry – creates, improves, or changes magical items traditionally created by a stonemason, such as castles, dungeons, and crypts. Alchemy – creates or changes magical oils, potions, philters, draughts, infusions and similar one-shot items usable by anyone. Clothing - creates, improves or changes magical clothing, usually made from cloth or leather. This includes boots, shirts, cloaks, pants, belts, pouches and bags, hats, gloves, leather bracers, and cloth or leather masks. Jewelry – creates, improves or changes magical jewelry, including rings, earrings, necklaces, metal bracers, torcs, crowns, and metal masks. Trigger Items - creates, improves or changes magical rods, staves, wands, and traps. Scribing - creates, improves or changes magical scrolls, runes, contingent spells, and tattoos. Constructs – creates, improves or changes magically animated constructs, such as golems, animated objects, living spells, homunculi, boguns, and shield guardians. Wondrous Items – creates, improves or changes magical items not covered with any category found above. In order to craft one of these items, you must make an appropriate skill check and have the spell or spells available to be cast during the creation process. The base DC for creating a magic item is 15 + spell level + minimum caster level required to cast that spell ((spell level x 1.5 round down) –1). Magic items are always created at the minimum caster level required for that spell. The item in question must first be a masterwork item. You may create the item yourself, using the above craft sub-categories, or you may purchase a masterwork item yourself. Imbuing an item with magic takes 1 day for each 1000 gold pieces of value the item has. An item requires half this amount in raw materials to create (which does not includes the cost of the base masterwork item). During the course of creating the magic item, the spell or spells being used must be available every day for the entire creation process. You may provide the spell yourself, or you may hire a caster to provide it for you (though the cost of hiring a caster is not included in the cost of the item). At the end of the standard time period (1 day / 1000 gold), you make your skill check. If you fail the check, the raw materials are lost, including the masterwork item, and you must begin anew. You may extend the time you take to create and gain a bonus to your check. For each extra week that you spend imbuing an item, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your check. DECIPHER SCRIPT (INT; TRAINED ONLY) Reading and Writing: Normally, characters cannot read or write. For each rank a character puts in Decipher Script, that character can read and write one language that he speaks. By spending 2 skill points, a character can learn to read and write a language he doesn’t speak, allowing translations even when he doesn’t know the proper pronunciation of that language. Check: You can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language or a message written in an incomplete or archaic form. The base DC is 20 for the simplest messages, 25 for standard texts, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, or very old writing. If the check succeeds, you understand the general content of a piece of writing about one page long (or the equivalent). If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about the text. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.) Both the Decipher Script check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly, so that you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false. Special: For each rank you have, choose one language you speak. You can now read that language. Expanded Skill Abilities: 1 point: If you study a written language for 1 day, and then make a DC 22 Decipher Script check, you learn to read that language (though learning to speaking that language must be achieved through Speak Language, as normal). 2 points: With a DC 24 Decipher Script check, you can read magic as a spell-like ability. You can use this 3/day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one daily use. 3 points: You understand the basic message being imparted by any sort of sign language you see. 4 points: With a DC 25 + spell level Decipher Script check, you can use magical scrolls, even if you are not a spell caster. Normal: Characters cannot read. You cannot read magical writings without casting read magic. You cannot use magical scrolls unless the spell appears on your class spell list or you use the Use Magic Device skill. Action: Deciphering the equivalent of a single page of script takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions). Try Again: No. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Craft (scribing), you get a +2 bonus on Decipher Script checks involving scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Craft (scribing) checks involving creating magical writing. If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Craft (forgery) checks. Diplomacy Use Rich Burlew's diplomacy fix. Disable Device Remove the stipulation that only rogues can disable magical traps. A magic trap’s DC is high enough that a character has to spend a lot of skill points just to be able to succeed with even the best rolls. Succeeding with any sort of regularity means a character will likely have spent even more skill points, rendering Trapfinding a useless class ability, otherwise known as “filler”. Add: Open Lock, with appropriate DCs from the Open Lock skill Disguise 1 point: You can adopt a disguise in half the standard amount of time. 2 points: With a DC 24 Disguise check, you may disguise self as a spell-like ability. You may use this up to 3 times per day, with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one of the daily uses. 3 points: Any creature that attempts to pierce your disguise with magical means must first make a caster level check. The DC for this caster level check is your Disguise skill check. Escape Artist 1 point: You can roll twice when using this skill and take the better of the two rolls. 3 points: With a DC 26 Escape Artist check, your body becomes slightly amorphous, granting you a +4 bonus to Escape Artist checks involving ropes, manacles or other inanimate objects. You may use this as often as you like, but each cumulative time after the first increases the DC by 5. 5 points: With a DC 30 Escape Artist check, you become amorphous for 3d6 minutes. You may use this as often as you like, but each cumulative time after the first increases the DC by 5. Gather Information 1 point: Your gather information rolls take half as much time as normal to complete. 2 points: With a DC 24 Gather Information check, you can augury as a spell-like ability. You can use this one time per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends the use of this ability for the day. 3 points: With a DC 26 Gather Information check, you can detect thoughts as a spell-like ability. You can use this one time per day with a caster level equal to your character level. The DC to resist this is 10 + ½ your ECL + your charisma modifier. A failed check expends the use of this ability for the day. 4 points: With a DC 28 Gather Information check, you can clairvoyance/clairaudience as a spell-like ability. You can use this one time per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends the use of this ability for the day. 5 points: With a DC 30 Gather Information check, you can scry as a spell-like ability. You may use this one time per day with a caster level equal to your character level. The DC for this spell-like ability is 10 + ½ your ECL + your charisma modifier. The maximum range for this ability is 1 mile. A failed check expends the use of this ability for the day. Handle Animal 1 point: You suffer no penalty to your Handle Animal checks when training unusual mounts such as magical beasts or dragons. In addition you can train an animal tricks in half the standard amount of time. This does not apply to checks made when Advancing an Animal. 3 points: With a DC 26 Handle Animal check, you can speak with animals as a spell-like ability. You can use this 3 times per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one daily use. Heal 1 point: When attempting to administer Long Term Care, you may make a DC 22 check instead of the normal DC 15 check. If you do, that character recovers 4 hit points per level, instead of the normal 2 hit points per level. 2 points: With a DC 24 heal check, you can repair 1d4 points of ability damage a character has suffered. Characters can only be healed in this manner once per day. If you fail this check, you can retry after the character has been healed of ability damage from any other source, including rest. 3 points: With a DC 26 heal check, you can heal a character a number of hit points equal to your skill check as a full-round action. Characters can only be healed in this manner once per day. If you fail this check, you can retry on that character 1 minute later. 4 points: With a DC 28 heal check, you can cause a character to ignore any penalties associated with a disease for 1 day. If you fail this check, you can retry after 24 hours. 5 points: With a DC 30 heal check, you can heal 1d4 points of ability drain or negative levels a character has suffered. Characters can only be healed in this manner once per day. If you fail this check, you can retry after the character has been healed of ability drain from another source, or after 24 hours. Hide 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when hiding. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: You may move at your base speed while hiding without taking the normal -5; moving faster results in the normal penalty. 3 points: With a DC 26 Hide check, you gain Hide in Plain Sight, as a Ranger (PHB), usable for the next minute. You also cannot be scryed upon, such as with spells such as scrying or clairaudience/clairvoyance. 4 points: With a DC 28 Hide check, you cannot be automatically detected with Blindsense or Blindsight. A creature with either of these senses must make a normal spot check to find you. Intimidate 1 point: When you use the demoralize opponent option, it takes a swift action instead of a move equivalent action. 2 points: When you use the demoralize opponent option, if the opponent fails his special level check by 10 or more, you may instead cause him to become frightened. 3 points: When you use the demoralize opponent option, it takes an immediate action instead of a move action. 4 points: When you use the demoralize opponent option, if the opponent fails his special level check by 10 or more, you may instead cause him to become panicked. Jump 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when jumping. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: When you jump down or fall, you can make a Jump check. For each 5 points this check exceeds DC 10, you take damage as if you had fallen 10 ft less. 3 points: You no longer double the DC for standing jumps. 4 points: By making successive Jump checks, you can spring from one surface to another multiple times as a full round action. As long as your jump checks are enough to cover the distance between jump points, and you have not exceeded twice your base movement, you may make more than one jump check per round. In this manner, a character may jump vertically from the ground up onto a tree branch (5 ft.), then horizontally across a moat (15 ft.) to land on a parapet, then jump vertically (10 ft.) to catch a window sill. The character in this example must make 3 jump checks and have a base movement rate of at least 30 ft. Knowledge As a character gains more ranks in a specific knowledge skill, he learns more about the creatures that are associated with that knowledge. He can make a Knowledge check with a DC of 10 + the creature’s CR to grant himself and any allies within 50 ft. special knowledge to aid in battle. This is a language dependent ability and your allies must be able to hear you impart your knowledge onto them, so areas of silence, particularly loud noises, or deafness will prevent your allies from gaining this benefit, though you will always gain the benefit. You may only use one of the benefits listed below each round, and the DC increases by 5 each time after the first you wish to use the same benefit against a foe. The benefit only applies to a single foe. Using this ability takes a move-equivalent action. 1 point: Tactics: You know the general combat behavior of your foe. Allies gain a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls. If you make your Knowledge check by 10 or more, this bonus increases to +2. If you make your Knowledge check by 20 or more, this bonus increases to +3. This bonus lasts 1 round. 2 points: Withstand: You know how to resist the foe. Allies gain a +1 competence bonus to saving throws against that creature. If you make your Knowledge check by 10 or more, this bonus increases to +2. If you make your Knowledge check by 20 or more, this bonus increases to +3. This bonus lasts 3 rounds. 3 points: Foe: You know where to hit this foe where it hurts. Allies gain +1d6 damage for each attack that hits the foe. If you make your Knowledge check by 10 or more, this bonus increases to +2d6. If you make your Knowledge check by 20 or more, this bonus increases to +3d6. This bonus lasts 1 round. 4 points: Foreknowledge: You can anticipate how this foe is going to strike at your allies. Allies gain a +1 insight bonus to Armor Class against that creature. If you make your Knowledge check by 10 or more, this bonus increases to +2. If you make your Knowledge check by 20 or more, this bonus increases to +3. This bonus lasts 3 rounds. Listen 1 point: When you try to hear something you failed to hear previously, it is a free action instead of a move action. 2 points: As a move action, you may make a DC 22 Listen check to gain Blindsense for all squares adjacent to yourself (as well as your squares). 3 points: As a swift action, you may make a DC 26 Listen check to gain Blindsense for all squares within 10 ft. of you (as well as your squares). 4 points: With a DC 28 Listen check, you can hear any telepathic communication a creature within 15 ft. of you is engaged in. Move Silently 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when moving silently. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: You may move at your base speed while moving silently without taking the normal -5; moving faster results in the normal penalty. 3 points: You may take 10 when making a Move Silently check even when threatened or distracted. If you can already take 10 from another source (such as the Rogue Talent Skill Mastery), you instead gain a +4 competence bonus on this check. 4 points: You cannot be detected with Tremorsense. Perform nothing here. (yet?) Ride 1 point: You suffer no penalty to your Ride checks when riding unusual mounts such as magical beasts or dragons. 2 points: You may make a DC 24 Ride check. If you succeed, you may use half your total check rolled in place of your mount's Balance, Jump, Climb, or Reflex Saving Throws. 3 points: You may make a DC 26 Ride check. If you succeed, you may have a spell effect that would target your mount target you instead. Alternatively, with the same Ride check DC, you may have a spell effect that would target you target your mount instead. 4 points: With a DC 28 Ride check, your mount may use your base saving throws or its own (whichever is higher) in place of its own for the next 1 minute. 5 points: With a DC 30 Ride check, you can communicate telepathically with your mount for a number of rounds equal to your check as a spell-like ability. You can use this three times per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one daily use. Search Remove the “rogue only” parts. The DCs are high enough that a character will need to have a good search check to find these things. 1 point: With a DC 22 Search check, you can use any 0-level detect spell as a spell-like ability. You may use this at will with a caster level equal to your character level. To switch what spell you are emulating, you must make a new skill check. Each time you use this ability, the DC increases by 1, until you have had a chance to rest. 2 points: With a DC 24 Search check, you can detect secret doors as a spell-like ability. You can use this three times per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one daily use. 3 points: With a Search check DC equal to 22 + spell level, you can use any detect spell as a spell-like ability. You may use this at will with a caster level equal to your character level. To switch what spell you are emulating, you must make a new skill check. Each time you use this ability, the DC increases by 1 until you have had a chance to rest. Sense Motive 1 point: You may make a Sense Motive check (opposed by a Bluff check) immediately whenever any creature approaches within 30 ft. of you with harmful intent. You must be able to see the creature to use this ability. The harmful intent does not have to be directed toward you. 2 points: You can make a DC 24 Sense Motive check to get a rough idea of their power compared to yours. Much higher: target’s CR is at least 5 higher than yours. Higher: target’s CR is 2 to 4 higher than yours. About even: target’s CR is within 1 of yours (above or below). Lower: target’s CR is 2 to 4 lower than yours. Much lower: target’s CR is at least 5 lower than yours. 3 points: You may make a Sense Motive check (opposed by a bluff check) immediately whenever any creature approaches within 60 ft. of you with harmful intent. You must be able to see the creature to use this ability. The harmful intent does not have to be directed toward you. 4 points: With a DC 28 Sense Motive check and a swift action, you begin to anticipate one of your opponents while in combat. You gain one of the following against that foe: +1 insight bonus to AC, +1 insight bonus to hit, or a +1 insight bonus to saving throws. This bonus lasts until the beginning of your next turn. With each round that you use this against a particular foe, you suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to the check as that foe learns to better hide his intentions. 5 points: You may make a DC 30 Sense Motive check (opposed by a Bluff check) immediately whenever any creature approaches within 100 ft. of you with harmful intent. You do not need to be able to see the creature to use this ability, though you retain all penalties associated with being unable to see your opponent. The harmful intend does not have to be directed toward you. Sleight of Hand 1 point: When you lift an object from a mark, you can place that object on someone else within your reach as a free action. 3 points: When you conceal an object on your person, the use of divining magic still requires a search check by the caster, with a DC equal to the Sleight of Hand check made to conceal the object. SPEAK LANGUAGE (NONE; TRAINED ONLY) There are four ancient languages on the prime material plane; draconic, girantic, hruggeshin, sylvan. Most languages of the prime material plane are derivative of these four languages, in much the same way that Latin has been morphed into Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, and Romanian. These ancient languages are considered “dead” languages in much the same way Latin is in the real world. Draconic (dra-con-ik) is the ancient language of dragons. The derivatives of draconic are kobold, lizardfolk, troglodyte and various other reptilian languages. Girantic (gir-an-tik) is the ancient language of the giants. The derivatives of girantic are giant, dwarven, gnomish and many other earthen languages. Hruggeshin (ru-gesh-in) is the ancient language of goblins. The derivatives of hruuggeshin are goblin, orc, gnoll, bugbear, hobgoblin and many other gutteral languages. Sylvan (sil-van) is the ancient language of the fey. The derivatives of Sylvan are Elven, Halfling, Shifter, Pixie and many other wild languages. These four languages are considered the “classical” or “old” tongues and each has an alphabet that the derivative languages uses, though a character must take a rank in Decipher Script (specifying a language) to be able to read and write that language. In this way, written documents are often times an easier form of communication than speech when attempting to communicate with people that do not share a common language. Common is a special case. Common is actually a pidgin of many other languages. It is about 50% descended from sylvan, with 40% split about equally between draconic, girantic, and hruggeshin. Over time, it has evolved enough to be able to form proper sentences and speech structure, becoming a language on its own. Common is much like English in the real world, where it has taken words and phrases from various other languages. While Common contains many words from sylvan, draconic girantic, hruggeshin and their derivative languages, speakers of common can’t communicate with speakers of these other languages. The remaining 10% of Common is made up of its own words and phrases that have been adopted as a whole and spread by traders and travelers. A character that chooses one of the four classical languages usually can only communicate with creatures using the derivative languages in a slow, crude manner. To demonstrate the basic level of communication between a classical language and a derivative language, consider the following exchange a character might use when trying to sell a sword, “My sword. Sell sword. You buy.” Characters are given bonus skill points at character creation that must be placed into Speak Language. For each point of intelligence modifier, a character receives one bonus skill point for Speak Language. Every character receives at least one language skill point. Characters speak one of these languages perfectly fluently as their native tongue. The other bonus languages they speak as someone that has been taught, but they certainly have a pronounced accent. Your speech may be punctuated with pauses and “ums”, and you tend to use the same words a lot, it’s actually not painful for listeners to hear you speak their native tongue. To speak a language with more fluency, a character must put more skill points into that language. The more skill points, the more fluent you become. Between 1 and 4 ranks, your fluency improves. Instead of basic levels of communication, you begin to sound more and more like someone that has spent significant time speaking that language. With 5 ranks in a language, you have become perfectly fluent with the language, and even native speakers have trouble discerning that it is not your primary language. Planar Languages: In addition to the prime material languages, the outsiders that populate the planes have their own languages. Planar languages typically employ a variety of alphabets, sometimes even mixing different alphabets within a single document, sentence or even word. Characters may not begin play knowing any planar languages. Fiendish: Spoken by devils, demons, yugoloths and other denizens of the lower planes. Celestial: Spoken by angels, guardinals, celestials, and other denizens of the upper planes. Aquan: Spoken by elemental water creatures. Auran: Spoken by elemental air creatures. Ignan: Speken by elemental fire creatures. Terran: Spoken by elemental earth creatures. Action: Not applicable. Try Again: Not applicable. There are no Speak Language checks to fail. The Speak Language skill doesn’t work like other skills. Languages work as follows. • You start at 1st level knowing one languages (based on your race). • You gain a number of bonus skill points based on your Intelligence modifier, which may only be used to purchase language skills. • You can purchase Speak Language ranks just like any other skill, but instead of requiring a check, you just improve in fluency. • A literate character (anyone that has spent a skill point in Decipher Script for that language) can read and write the chosen language. Each prime material plane language has an alphabet, though sometimes several spoken languages share a single alphabet. Spellcraft 1 point: If you succeed at your Spellcraft check to determine a spell or spell-like ability being cast at you, you gain a +1 insight bonus to your saving throw. 2 points: By making a Spellcraft check, you might determine what magical effects a person is being affected by. The base DC is 20 for 0-level spells, and increases by 1 for every spell level. Make a single skill check. The result determines the highest spell level you may detect. Spot 1 point: You may actively Spot as a free action, instead of a move action. 2 points: You gain low-light vision. If you already have low-light vision, increase the increase the distance it functions by a factor of 1. (An elf with low-light vision can see twice as far in dim conditions as a human. With this expanded skill ability, that elf instead sees three times as far.) 3 points: With a DC 26 Spot check, you can see invisibility as a spell-like ability. You can use this three times per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one daily use. Survival 1 point: With a DC 22 Survival check, you gain Resistance 10 to any non-lethal damage caused by extreme temperatures (the heat of a desert or the cold of the artic) for 24 hours. 2 points: You can always find enough food and water to sustain yourself in any natural environment. 3 points: With a DC 26 Survival check, you leave no scent and gain Trackless Step for 10 minutes. You can use this ability at will, but each time after the first raises the DC by 5. 4 points: With a DC 28 Survival check, you can use protection from energy as a spell-like ability. You can use this three times per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one daily use. 5 points: With a DC 30 Survival check, you can use mass protection from energy as a spell-like ability. You can use this three times per day with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one daily use. Swim 1 point: You gain a swim speed equal to ½ your base speed as a move action, instead of a full-round action. 2 points: You can take 10 when swimming, even when threatened or distracted. If you can already take 10 from another source (such as the Rogue Talent Skill Mastery), you instead gain a +4 competence bonus on this check. 3 points: You suffer armor’s normal armor check penalty instead of two times the armor check penalty when swimming. 4 points: You can take a run action when swimming. Tumble 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when tumbling. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: You suffer no penalties when fighting from a prone position. Opponents gain no bonuses from attacking you while you are prone. 3 points: You may take 10 when making a Tumble check even when threatened or distracted. If you can already take 10 from another source (such as the Rogue Talent Skill Mastery), you instead gain a +4 competence bonus on this check. 4 points: You can stand from prone as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Use Magic Device Is broken, and needs a lot of help. Use Rope 3 points: When you use this skill to bind a creature, that creature is still bound even after changing shape. In order to escape the binding through shape-changing magic, that creature must assume a shape at least 2 size categories smaller than the shape you bound. Alternatively, the creature may adopt a shape 2 size categories larger and attempt to break the bonds, requiring a strength check (using the new form's strength) v. the break DC of the rope plus the check result you got when binding them. 4 points: Your bindings prevent magical transportation, such as teleport, blink, dimension door, or astral projection, from working on any creature you bind. The creature must make a caster level check against your skill check to be able to use transportation magic.
lord_xarallon 06-10-07, 12:56 PM	Way too long for my to read it all, but I did read bluff. It just seem very powerful. Would the expended points count toward max skill ranks?
Otto the Bugbear 06-11-07, 08:18 PM	Way too long for my to read it all, but I did read bluff. It just seem very powerful. Care to expand on that? Would the expended points count toward max skill ranks? No. The skill points spent to gain these tricks does not count toward the max skill ranks, nor does it increase the ranks or add to the total modifier. Like so... Asgrim the Wolf is 8th level. He has 11 ranks in Balance and a +5 Dex modifier, for a total of +16. Previously, he spent 1 skill point three different times to reduce the Armor Check Penalty (ACP) from any armor or shield he wears by 3 points for the purposes of balance checks. That means he can ignore the entire ACP from his magical breastplate +1 (normally -4 ACP, but reduced due to masterwork quality), but only when making balance checks. He also purchased, for 2 skill points, the ability to retain his Dex to AC while balancing if he beats the balance check by 5 or more. So, Asgrim has maximum ranks in balance (11), plus he has spent another 5 skill points on those two tricks. He is unable to purchase the ability to move at his normal speed without penalty (which costs 3 skill points), because he's only 8th level and his level must be three times the amount of points he wishes to spend. At 9th level, he could purchase that ability if he wished. However, Asgrim will never be able to purchase the 4 point ability, even at 12th level, because he only gets 3 skill points per level, and has more important things to focus on than raising his Intelligence score.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-12-07, 03:54 AM	Hmm. I looked at the Craft skill variant in particular. I like how it pares down the feat bloat with Magic Item creation feats, but it still has the catch-all/loophole problem with Craft Wondrous Item, now as a craft rather than a feat. Given everything, why would anyone take anything else? It also begs the question of how one enhances an item that's made with a different craft than the one you specialize in. For example, let's say you want to "redeem" a Darkskull as per the rules in the BoED. By the description, it's an ebony skull that gets refigured with mystical blessed silver runes all over it. Reasonably it took Craft Woodworking/Woodcarving/Carpentry or maybe Sculpture to make the damned thing and should take the same to "redeem" it, and it can be reasonably argued that Jewelry Making or Calligraphy might be used to enrune it, but what if all the redeemer is good at is Craft Chandlery? Drill a hole in the top and make it a candleholder? That might work. What about Craft Cheesemaking? Turn it into a fondue pot? Of course one expects that the wizard with multiple ranks in Craft Cheesemaking would indeed be making the Limburger of Cloudkill, but that's another problem. I'm guessing that Wizards by your system should automatically, in exchange for losing Scribe Scroll, gain a rank in Craft Calligraphy every level, which actually stands to reason given the practice with spellbooks. I'm contemplating a house rule that you need one rank in a craft skill for every caster level of the finished item, though might split that into total ranks. I'll have to bounce it off my players.
Otto the Bugbear 06-12-07, 07:07 AM	Hmm. I looked at the Craft skill variant in particular. I like how it pares down the feat bloat with Magic Item creation feats, but it still has the catch-all/loophole problem with Craft Wondrous Item, now as a craft rather than a feat. Given everything, why would anyone take anything else? Craft Wondrous would only work if the item in question doesn't fit in one of the previous categories. I'd love to trim that right out, but so far this is sort of a beta draft. It also begs the question of how one enhances an item that's made with a different craft than the one you specialize in. For example, let's say you want to "redeem" a Darkskull as per the rules in the BoED. By the description, it's an ebony skull that gets refigured with mystical blessed silver runes all over it. Reasonably it took Craft Woodworking/Woodcarving/Carpentry or maybe Sculpture to make the damned thing and should take the same to "redeem" it, and it can be reasonably argued that Jewelry Making or Calligraphy might be used to enrune it, but what if all the redeemer is good at is Craft Chandlery? Drill a hole in the top and make it a candleholder? That might work. What about Craft Cheesemaking? Turn it into a fondue pot? Good point. If it was created with Craft (woodworking), in the case of the skull, then it can only be modified with that same craft. Also, I can possibly see some magic items requiring more than one craft skill to be properly created. Either that or just use one craft for the magic creation part that is most used to create it, even when it might contain minor elements from other crafts (like jewelry for the example skull). Craft magic Chandlery? :rofl: that's cute. The listed crafts for creating magic items is all that are available for creating magic items. You can't actually take 'cheesemaking' and claim it allows you to make magic cheese. Of course, you can make cheese that grants a magic effect upon consumption, but that would fall under ... uh ... alchemy, like a potion. Of course one expects that the wizard with multiple ranks in Craft Cheesemaking would indeed be making the Limburger of Cloudkill, but that's another problem. I am so going to use that at some point! I'm guessing that Wizards by your system should automatically, in exchange for losing Scribe Scroll, gain a rank in Craft Calligraphy every level, which actually stands to reason given the practice with spellbooks. Well, no. My wizard (dsenchuk.googlepages.com/wizard) doesn't even use spellbooks anymore. I just don't like vancian casting, so I removed it. Scribe Scroll is replaced with a metamagic feat of choice. I'm contemplating a house rule that you need one rank in a craft skill for every caster level of the finished item, though might split that into total ranks. I'll have to bounce it off my players. Not a bad idea. It certainly helps add to the flavor of the crafter actually making the item himself, or having knowledge of how the mundane item was created in the first place. Cheers Otto :)
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-12-07, 07:04 PM	Well, if you're going to shoehorn cheesemaking into alchemy, you might as well stuff in chandlery too (it's the old proper name for candlemaking, actually). You can follow that logic and empty out the entire "Craft Wondrous Item" category. The trouble is, where do you put Craft Dyer? Under Alchemy? As a subset of Weaving? Leatherworking? The trouble is, the old medieval trades were all rather specialised. There was actually a buttonmakers guild. Buttons at one time were very prized and valuable. Now? Not even mentioned. I'm tempted to make everything into very broad categories and then let people specialize with skill tricks. For example, have "Metalworking" as the broad category and Blacksmith/Tinsmith/Silversmith/Goldsmith all be skill tricks, and ditto bladesmith/armorer/mailer and so forth, one for types of materials, the other for types of things.
lord_xarallon 06-12-07, 09:08 PM	With the bluff, you begin to override feats (imp feint) and PrCs (invisible knife). They are trying to cut down the time spent feinting.
Otto the Bugbear 06-14-07, 08:07 AM	Well, if you're going to shoehorn cheesemaking into alchemy, you might as well stuff in chandlery too (it's the old proper name for candlemaking, actually). You can follow that logic and empty out the entire "Craft Wondrous Item" category. The trouble is, where do you put Craft Dyer? Under Alchemy? As a subset of Weaving? Leatherworking? The trouble is, the old medieval trades were all rather specialised. There was actually a buttonmakers guild. Buttons at one time were very prized and valuable. Now? Not even mentioned. I'm tempted to make everything into very broad categories and then let people specialize with skill tricks. For example, have "Metalworking" as the broad category and Blacksmith/Tinsmith/Silversmith/Goldsmith all be skill tricks, and ditto bladesmith/armorer/mailer and so forth, one for types of materials, the other for types of things. Well, the thing is to leave Craft Wondrous Item in as a category/catch-all, instead of expanding the list to several thousand. This really boils down to a Player/DM interaction. When making a magical dye, what category should it fall into? Alchemy, IMO. When making a magical copper bowl, what category should it fall into? Blacksmithing, IMO. Sure, in the real world it so different that is really shouldn't be in the same category. However, I'm a strong advocate of NOT having the rules spell out every last possibility just in case a gamer really wants to be pedantic about the whole thing. If a player wants to make a magical copper bowl, and I say that it falls under Craft: Blacksmithing, yet he insists that they're not the same and it should have its own category, I'm likely to say fine, take ranks in Craft: Copper Bowls. It's really not worth the time to argue about it or to put up with that sort of argumentative player. With the bluff, you begin to override feats (imp feint) and PrCs (invisible knife). They are trying to cut down the time spent feinting. That's actually fine. Feats just don't do enough for the investment; they should do more. If I kept it as a feat, the feat would do exactly what the expanded skill does. And at the same level. As for the PrCs, many of the alterations I did for the classes (see my homepage (dsenchuk.googlepages.com)) already make quite a few PrCs moot. In addition to that, the PrC would still grant that ability for free, instead of spending a feat to get it, or spending your skill points. But, I can see where you're coming from. I might respectfully disagree, but I'm not going to argue the case too strongly. Now, what about the rest of the skills?
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-14-07, 02:59 PM	Well, the thing is to leave Craft Wondrous Item in as a category/catch-all, instead of expanding the list to several thousand. This really boils down to a Player/DM interaction. When making a magical dye, what category should it fall into? Alchemy, IMO. When making a magical copper bowl, what category should it fall into? Blacksmithing, IMO. Sure, in the real world it so different that is really shouldn't be in the same category. However, I'm a strong advocate of NOT having the rules spell out every last possibility just in case a gamer really wants to be pedantic about the whole thing. If a player wants to make a magical copper bowl, and I say that it falls under Craft: Blacksmithing, yet he insists that they're not the same and it should have its own category, I'm likely to say fine, take ranks in Craft: Copper Bowls. It's really not worth the time to argue about it or to put up with that sort of argumentative player. What if you've got an argumentative DM? Part of the trouble is that the books are all written by different people and cobbled together, and you've got X book listing Y prestige class that requires Z skill as entry requirement, and then you have players asking reasonable questions such as "Is blacksmithing the same as metalworking?" And then you've got a new game designer putting coppersmithing in as a skill because he's doing a bronze age game supplement and it has more flavor and it makes no sense to list "blacksmithing" because that's working with iron and the point of the whole supplement is that they don't have any iron. Another part of the other trouble is that with every supplement, there's more skill and feat bloat because to sell books, you need to have some crunch, and if "The Complete Killerz" says that assassins just use Craft Alchemy rather than Craft Poisonmaking, it seems less crunchy, even if it's better from a game perspective. I think I'm going to redline Craft Poisonmaking, flavorful as it is, and say it's just Craft Alchemy but you get a +2 synergy bonus to checks to make poisons if you have the Use Poison class special ability.
Otto the Bugbear 06-15-07, 12:20 PM	What if you've got an argumentative DM? Then nothing is going to change that. He'd still be argumentative even if every rules was spelled out in perfect lawyer-ese. Part of the trouble is that the books are all written by different people and cobbled together, and you've got X book listing Y prestige class that requires Z skill as entry requirement, and then you have players asking reasonable questions such as "Is blacksmithing the same as metalworking?" And then you've got a new game designer putting coppersmithing in as a skill because he's doing a bronze age game supplement and it has more flavor and it makes no sense to list "blacksmithing" because that's working with iron and the point of the whole supplement is that they don't have any iron. Another part of the other trouble is that with every supplement, there's more skill and feat bloat because to sell books, you need to have some crunch, and if "The Complete Killerz" says that assassins just use Craft Alchemy rather than Craft Poisonmaking, it seems less crunchy, even if it's better from a game perspective. I think I'm going to redline Craft Poisonmaking, flavorful as it is, and say it's just Craft Alchemy but you get a +2 synergy bonus to checks to make poisons if you have the Use Poison class special ability. Ok. Meanwhile, back on this thread...
Otto the Bugbear 06-18-07, 06:28 PM	:bump:
DoomDuck 06-19-07, 12:40 AM	Given that the campaign's using your homebrew ruleset, I think these fit well. My only concern adding all these'd be that you might end up with too much overlap. I haven't looked through to see if its the case, but class-abilities, feats, Domains, and these Skill Abilities might end up with multiple ways of achieving the same end, or with certain methods yielding inferior outcomes (i.e. a class ability becoming significantly inferior to a comparatively easier to gain skill-trick). Just a thought. Otherwise, I really like these and it gives you a way of improving your skills beyond just more skill points. So, I like 'em. ~DD
Qwicksilver 07-03-07, 01:30 AM	Nice all around. Also, what's up with UMD?
JoAT 07-03-07, 12:04 PM	I only glanced over it (been up for too long to read anything in depth), but I like it alot. It reminds me of a cross between Alternity skills, Skill Tricks and Iron Heroes-stye feat mastery (adapted for skills). I've been thinking for a long time that certain skill feats just aren't good enough to be feats, and this is the perfect thing to do with them. Bookmarked for future in-depth reading and inspiration.
angryscrub 07-03-07, 08:40 PM	ok, this is long. good stuff. i'll try to give feedback, but it'll be in stages. start at the beginning i guess. Appraise 1 point: If your Appraise check beats the DC to determine the value of an object by at least 10, you can appraise the value of each object in 1d4 rounds, instead of 1 minute. 2 points: With a DC 24 Appraise check, you can detect magic when you handle one object for one minute. You may use this as often as you like, but must start over with a new skill check for each new item. Failure means that you will not get a result on that item until you have gained at least one more level. You may not take 10 or take 20 on this check. 3 points: If your Appraise check beats the DC to determine the value of an object by at least 10, you can appraise the value of each object as a full-round action. 4 points: With a DC 28 Appraise check, you can identify one object by appraising it for 10 minutes. You may use this as often as you like, but must start over with a new Appraise check for each new item. Each item beyond the first that you attempt to identify in this manner each day raises the DC by 2. Failure means you may not identify that item until you have gained at least one more level. You may not take 10 or take 20 on this check. 5 points: If your Appraise check beats the DC to determine the value of an object by at least 10, you can appraise the value of each object as a swift action. hrm, i'm not really sure i see the point of the quick appraise abilities, especially not for the price. i guess it's for when you're robbing someone and only have limited carrying capacity, and need to quickly decide what to take. speaking as someone who likes to play thefty types, for 5(!) of my precious skill points, i'd much rather see something like, i dunno, the ability to pick the most valuable items out of a room. determine the exact value later, just be able to get like 85% of the most valuable loot quickly. i want to ransack it (with search), pick out the valuable looking stuff, and get out quickly. or am i totally missing the point of what you intend with these? Balance 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when balancing. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: If you beat the Balance check DC by 5 or more, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC while balancing. 3 points: You can ignore the penalty for moving your full speed (see Accelerated Movement above) while balancing. 4 points: You may take 10 when making a Balance check even when threatened or distracted. If you can already take 10 from another source (such as the Rogue Talent Skill Mastery), you instead gain a +4 competence bonus on this check. i like what you're doing here, but unless you've change the balance skill in your game, the 2 point ability is pointless. here: ...Being Attacked while Balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing... 5 or more ranks in balance already causes you to not be flat footed, which means you don't lose dex to AC (since that is a result of being flat footed, not directly of balancing). maybe you could purchase the ability to not make another balance check if you take damage? more later.
angryscrub 07-04-07, 07:05 PM	a couple of more. Bluff 1 point: You may feint in combat as a move action 3 points: You may feint in combat as a swift action 5 points: You may feint in combat as an immediate action do you have to buy the cheaper ones before you can take the more expensive ones? if not, i predict only the 3 point will get bought, as the move action feint i don't even think is worth 1 point. and at 5 points, the immediate action seems a bit expensive, considering its use will be limited, as far as i can see. bluff is best against casters, or anyone without a full BAB, and they usually do their damndest to avoid giving you AoOs. Climb 1 point: You reduce the total Armor Check Penalty you take from armor and shield by 1 when climbing. You may choose this expanded ability more than once. The total number of points you’ve spent on this expanded ability is the total amount you reduce the Armor Check Penalty from armor and shield. 2 points: If you beat the Climb DC by 5 or more, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing. 3 points: You may take 10 when making a Climb check even when threatened or distracted. If you can already take 10 from another source (such as the Rogue Talent Skill Mastery), you instead gain a +4 competence bonus on this check. 4 points: You may move at half your base speed while climbing, instead of one-quarter your speed, without penalty. 5 points: With a DC 28 check, you may use spider climb as a spell-like ability. You may use this up to 3 times per day, with a caster level equal to your character level. A failed check expends one of the daily uses. Normal: You apply the armor check penalty to Climb checks, even if you are proficient with the armor. You loose your Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing. You move at one-quarter your base speed while climbing. not sure why anyone would buy the 4 point ability. at 12th level, when you can buy it, if you're into climbing, you'll have bought the 3 point ability, and have +15 to your climb check from ranks alone. taking a -5 to your check already lets you climb double speed, and with taking 10 you can already hit most climb DCs. and that's assuming you only have a 10 strength and no other climb bonuses. 4 points seems pretty steep, and i just don't see why anyone would buy it. as for the spider climb, the DC is going to be an auto make for anyone that's bought the 3 point ability, so i'm not sure why you would even have it. maybe what you should do is change the requirement to purchase skill abilites. instead of 3xCost levels to purchase, it should require 3xCost ranks in that skill. then just get rid of the skill check requirement. this would put spider climb 3/day at 12th level, which isn't exactly broken. it would be rather trivial for a druid or wizard at 12th level to reproduce this effect, and nothing at all for a beguiler (or sorcerer, though i'm not entirely sure how many sorcerer builds have spider climb). even a UMD rogue would be able to trivially cast this out of a wand at this level. in fact, now that i think about it, at 5 skill points, i'm not sure i'd ever purchase this either. maybe if it was an (ex), but as a spell like ability, i'm thinking i'd be better off buying a wand of spider climb and having someone else in the party cast it on me, if i couldn't do it myself. i seriously doubt that over long term, i'd be requiring even a spider climb per day on average.