Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xsv 09-05-07, 03:57 AM	Can the Extend Spell feat be applied to a spell modified by Persistent Spell? For instance, Cleric Spell Divine Favor Persisted to 24hrs and then Extended to 48hrs.
Merestil Haye 09-05-07, 06:39 AM	Can the Extend Spell feat be applied to a spell modified by Persistent Spell? For instance, Cleric Spell Divine Favor Persisted to 24hrs and then Extended to 48hrs.Persistent Spell works by "replacing" the spell's duration with a 24 hour duration. Consequently my reply is "it depends." What it depends on is whether you are trying to apply the Persistent Spell feat "on the fly" as it were, or whether you are paying the cost of increased spell slots to apply the feat. If you are doing it the hard way (ie you have prepared the Extended Persisted Divine Favour as an 8th level spell) or even applying the Extend Spell feat to a prepared Persisted spell (say with a Rod of Greater Extend Spell) then I would say that the combination works as you wish. If you're trying to apply Persistent Spell (say with DMM Persist) to an Extended Divine Favour, I rule that the persistent feat just overwrites the already established duration of the prepared spell (which would be 2 minutes) and thus your spell would last only 24 hours.
tarkin 09-05-07, 09:46 AM	They do not stack. Extend spell says: Extend Spell [Metamagic] Benefit An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level. See the part I colored Blue and underlined? Normal is the duration of the spell without any other metamagics. It is not the the modified duration before you apply the Extend feat. So if you have a spell that lasts 10 minutes and you 1. apply Persistent (now lasting 24 hours) and then apply Extend Spell, it now lasts 20 minutes (twice the NORMAL duration).
FLAvatar 09-05-07, 10:35 AM	It is important to note that the description of Extend Spell is written in a universe in which Persistent Spell does not exist, and that the normal duration of a Persist-ed spell is 24 hours. Effects stack in whatever order is most beneficial to the person applying them unless special-cased like the interaction between Resist Energy & Protection from Energy or Maximize & Empower. Therefore, they stack just fine, assuming you are able to somehow apply them both at the same time (I fully agree with Merestil that Persisting a spell prepared as Extended already only makes the duration 24 hours.) To try to apply them any other way puts you in the ludicrous position of adjudicating that a Widened, Extended Grease spell creates an effect where some of its total area lasts twice as long but is half as large yet some of the rest of it covers twice as much but only lasts half as long. Then you have to come up with a completely arbitrary house rule that determines which half of the Widened Grease's area is the Extended portion - the middle? the left half? alternating 5' squares? Really, doesn't it make a ton more sense to say the whole spell is twice as big and lasts twice as long? Beautiful in its simplicity. And that's just the easy example. Don't even try to wrap your head around the Enlarged, Widened Fireball, where half of it detonates at the normal range but twice as large, and the other half detonates at the enlarged range, but at regular size. Fortunately no one takes the Enlarge Spell feat, thus saving the universe from collapse =)
tarkin 09-05-07, 10:41 AM	FLAvatar, I do not understand your argument. It does not seem relevant at all to my point. I am not stating that Extend does not interact. Instead I am stating that Extend works off the NORMAL duration of the spell, not the ADJUSTED duration. By my ruling an Widened, Extended Grease spell works for twice the normal duration for the ENTIRE spell, which includes both the original area and the rest of the area. Moreover, there is little if any argument about the stacking of metamagic effects that apply to DIFFERENT things. No ONE, at all claims that things that increase range only work on the normal part of the spell. What people argue about is what the 'base value' is for multiple feats that affect the SAME thing (i.e. two feats that both increase damage, not a feat that increases range and another feat that increase width)
ruff0126 09-05-07, 11:03 AM	Their are multiple custerv and WOTC employee responces that specificly say that metamagics are applied in the most favorable way. So whether or not it was an extended spell then you applied DMM Persist or you persisted a spell then used a rod of extend it would make no diffrence, same net effect. I am not subscribing to this thread so, if anyone disagrees with me and would like a response please PM me.
FLAvatar 09-05-07, 11:51 AM	The argument is only there to illustrate that effects stack, and how silly things get when one tries to assert that parts of effects override others. Persistent says: Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Extend says: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. If one applies the effects in the prescribed manner, Persistent would be applied first, making the duration of the spell 24 hours. Extend is then applied, doubling the duration to 48 hours. I understand how it could be interpreted that by use of the word "normal" the authors potentially could have meant the unmodified original duration, just as I am sure you can see how potentially they didn't. I stand by my interpretation that the "normal" duration of a Persitent spell is 24 hours, and that allowing effects like that to stack is infinitely less complex than trying to rationalize them in piecemeal fashion. Hope that clears it up.
dman11235 09-05-07, 06:43 PM	Yes, it does (clear it up, that is). Increased to 24 hours. And normally the spell lasts one minute. Therefor it is either lasting twice as long as normal , 2 minutes, or 24 hours.
EjoThims 09-05-07, 09:29 PM	The normal duration of a persisted spell is 24 hours. Applying them both gives a duration of 48 hours. This is because of two things. 1) Metamagic can be applied in any order with no change. 2) Metamagic always interacts to the best result unless one of the metamagics specifies otherwise. Neither of these specify that they do not interact.
ShinAkuma2 09-05-07, 10:03 PM	The normal duration of a persisted spell is 24 hours. No, the normal duration of a Persisted spell is whatever is listed in the description of the spell. The fact that the metamagic feat creates a new duration doesn't change the normal duration.
EjoThims 09-05-07, 10:12 PM	The fact that the metamagic feat creates a new duration doesn't change the normal duration. Absolutely wrong. Metamagic changes the base spell. When other items look at the spell they don't see 'Mage Armor with Persist Applied,' they see 'Persisted Mage Armor.' If then checking the duration they see 24 hours. Persisted Spells have a normal duration of 24 hours. That is normal duration for any spell with Persist Spell used on it. There are, of course, exceptions to this, but they are always specified.
StevenO 09-05-07, 11:58 PM	This is just an opinion but just apply them together like you would stack empower and maximize. By that I mean give it 24 hours + it's normal duration.
dman11235 09-06-07, 12:34 AM	How does that make sense Ejo? The normal duration for a spell is the spell's original duration. How can the normal duration be a modified duration?
EjoThims 09-06-07, 07:43 AM	This is just an opinion but just apply them together like you would stack empower and maximize. By that I mean give it 24 hours + it's normal duration. That is an excellent houserule. If you don't mind I'll likely use it in the next game I run. How does that make sense Ejo? The normal duration for a spell is the spell's original duration. How can the normal duration be a modified duration? Because the 'original spell' is no longer part of the equation. The spell in question is not 'mage armor' or 'lion's strength' that has had persistant spell used on it. The spell in question is 'persistant mage armor' or 'persistant lion's strength,' and their normal duration is 24 hours. A metamagicked spell is a different spell than the original.
tarkin 09-06-07, 10:54 AM	You are making some NICE house rules yourself EjoThims. Yes a metamagicked spell is different from the original spell. But that does not mean that it IS the original spell. The original spell continues to have a duration measured in rounds, not 24 hours. The problem is you are trying to apply a generic rule about stacking, without even LOOKING at the FEAT itself. It does not matter that you foolishly think that all metamagics should interactively stack. What matters is that this particular metamagic EXPRESSELY says NORMAL. The question is what does "Normal" refer to. You want to make a wierd, new definition of Normal to mean "what it was just before I applied the metamagic feat." That is NOT what normal means. Normal means BEFORE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Learn English. If WoTC wanted to do it the way you so fevertly desire it, they could have written it: "An extended spell lasts twice as long." They did NOT do that. They went out of their way to write: "An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. " You can't just read the first part of the sentence and ignore the 2nd. They put the words "as normal" for one reason only: To stop the kind of crap you are doing. You don't believe me? Fine. Tell us what the words "as normal" do if they are NOT telling us that you are wrong.
FLAvatar 09-06-07, 01:22 PM	Actually, if they even cared, WOTC would have included it any of the errata on Persistent in the 6 years it has existed - say, for instance right next to where they clear up how one can not Persist a Time Stop in the FAQ :D I find it hard to reconcile Extend (+1) having a more powerful effect than Persistent (+6) in the case of a spell with both feats applied merely lasting twice the base spell's duration. I find it equally difficult to accept that a feat applied to an effect cancels out that of another feat applied to the same effect. I mean I could accept it if they were explicitly contradictory (like Energy Sub: Fire and Energy Sub: Cold applied to the same Lightning Bolt), but Extend and Persistent are more complimentary in function. If this was so, one would expect a rule or FAQ clarification that one overrules the other and it is wasteful to apply both. They did exactly this to remind sorcerors not to Quicken any spells, for example. I also like StevenO's approach, especially because it builds on a known mechanic for applying similar effects to the same component of a spell. Personally, I'm not gonna use it, but I think it is a nifty solution and wish I had thought of it:)
ShinAkuma2 09-06-07, 01:42 PM	The spell in question is not 'mage armor' or 'lion's strength' that has had persistant spell used on it. The spell in question is 'persistant mage armor' or 'persistant lion's strength,' and their normal duration is 24 hours. A metamagicked spell is a different spell than the original. The rules of Counterspelling suggest otherwise. Lightning Bolt is Lightning Bolt, whether it's Maximized, Energy Substituted, or Borne of Three Thunders. They are considered the same spell.
PhaedrusXY 09-06-07, 02:32 PM	I'm pretty sure WotC has said they stack, but unfortunately I don't remember where this was exactly.
EjoThims 09-06-07, 05:24 PM	Normal doe not mean before any other changes. It means typical, average, mundane, standard. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal What's the standard duration of a Peristent Spell? 24 Hours. What's double that normal amount? 48. We know from WotC that metamagic stacks unless noted otherwise. We know from WotC that metamagic can be applied in any order. We (should) know from common sense that normal does not mean the most basic form of something that could possibly exist. And honestly how you all can't resolve the if B is part of A then A is not neccesarilly equal to B logic is beyond me. It's very, very basic. It's why the norm for a persistent spell is 24 and not whatever the base spell's duration is yet why all lightning bolts are countered by lightning bolt.
dman11235 09-06-07, 09:12 PM	According to you I could extend an extended spell. The normal duration for, say, divine power is 1round per level. If it is extended then it's normal duration, the standard, typical duration (the other two definitions you gave are not vaild here) is 1 round per level. That is what the duration is for the standard spell "divine power". Do you disagree? So does it not stand that the normal duration for a standard divine power that has been persisted is also 1 round per level? This makes perfect sense to me, and it makes perfect sense to Tarkin. What we are arguing is semantics, so we aren't getting anywhere. Either you see that I am right, or I see that you are right, but that will never happen.
EjoThims 09-07-07, 08:03 AM	According to you I could extend an extended spell. If not for the fact that unless noted otherwise you can only apply any metamagic affect to a spell once, that could work. It's like going to a restaurant that you always go to. You order some sandwhich, but with no pickles and extra mayo, perhaps. And you get the same sandwhich every time. Now, if you walked in and asked, "Gimme my normal sandwhich," would you expect the waiter to bring you the normal menu item, or the one you normally order, with no pickles and extra mayo? The waiter should be bringing out the one with no pickles and no mayo. Because that is the normal sandwhich for you. Just as the normal duration for a spell modified with persistent is 24 hours. Any persistent spell, unless altered, will have a duration of 24 hours. Every single one. That seems to establish a pretty strong norm. Where the assumption that 'normal' means the same as 'basic' comes from is literally beyond my understanding.
dman11235 09-07-07, 11:08 AM	But that's the duration for a normal PERSISTED spell. Not the norma spell. With your example you made a couple logical flaws. One is the assumption that the resteraunt knows "you" well enough to know what your favorite sandwich is, and the other, well, not a logical flaw, but a flaw with the example: you said, quoted for truth (bolded mine): Now, if you walked in and asked, "Gimme my normal sandwhich," That is, YOUR normal sandwich. Not "the", but "your". Not the normal sandwich of that other guy, not the standard sandwich, but the sandwich that you have given your own variation on.
Paper_Weasel 09-07-07, 12:02 PM	It is my belief that 'normal' in the description of an effect such as a metamagic feat describes the way things would work without that effect. Without Extend Spell, a Persistent Shield Spell would last 24 hours, etc. I can't see why this shouldn't work, in terms of flavor and balance reasons, as well (except for DMM cheese). A wizard modifies his spell to last a day, then doubles its duration again. A character uses a slot 7 levels higher than normal, rather than 6, so that he has to cast a spell half as often. Is the only argument against them stacking a strict (and debatable, even so) interpretation of the rules? If so, I'd say yes, this is prohibited in what Tarkin classifies as a 'strict' game; e.g., one in which the rules are more rigidly interpreted than even WOTC suggests. Otherwise, barring massive cheese, I don't see any real reason to disallow this.
wolf_man007 09-07-07, 02:17 PM	All of you are wrong, normal means nothing, give me your pies. That is all.
dman11235 09-07-07, 02:53 PM	Um, no I will not give you my pies, I like my pies. They are tasty. You cannot have them.
EjoThims 09-07-07, 05:13 PM	That is, YOUR normal sandwich. Not "the", but "your". Not the normal sandwich of that other guy, not the standard sandwich, but the sandwich that you have given your own variation on. In the example the parrellel was between my altering of the sandwhich in a consitent way and the consistent way in which the metamagic alters the spell. And the assumption made (that they know me well enough) is rather reasonably and again meant to demonstrate the point. I could just as easily tell the waiter (assuming it was one who knew me as a regular customer), "Gimme the normal" and get my altered sandwhich as it is the standard, or norm, for myself, just as 24 hours is the normal duration for a persisted spell. Am I right in thinking that your whole argument rests on every affect referencing the original, most basic form of an item, regardless of how consistent the alteration may be?
dman11235 09-07-07, 05:41 PM	In a word: yes. But it is slightly more complicated than that. (And you misused affect, it should be effect.) My argument is that the feat extend spell says "normal duration" as opposed to current duration. My question to you is: is your sandwich, the one that you customized, the normal sandwich served, or is it a different one that is usually served. Now we get into paradigms, from your view your sandwich is normal, from mine it is not. I have already stated that neither one of us is going to concede the point, as we are arguing our perceived definitions of a word, that word being normal. There's also the fact that persist increases the duration to 24 hours, not a stackable value, like by 1000%.
EjoThims 09-07-07, 05:46 PM	In a word: yes. But it is slightly more complicated than that. (And you misused affect, it should be effect.) Sorry for the typo, in a bit of a rush. Now, would you then concede that the norm can be established as something other than the base if I showed you an example in the rules were an affect referenced a consistent alteration to the base item? I'm not sure if I can find the precedent using the actual word normal, but I know other than the specific exception of the interaction between maximize and empower, the inverse is not present.
dman11235 09-07-07, 05:50 PM	Misused affect again. That said.......wha????
EjoThims 09-07-07, 05:53 PM	Misused affect again. That said.......wha???? Bah... I need sleep. I'll try to rephrase that to make more sense later.
dman11235 09-07-07, 05:57 PM	You keep proving me right actually. something other than the base Is something other than the base, original, primary thing the normal thing? the definition according to that same site you used (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal)
EjoThims 09-08-07, 08:22 AM	You keep proving me right actually. Is something other than the base, original, primary thing the normal thing? the definition according to that same site you used (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal) Yes. Something does not have to be basic to be normal. It merely has to be consistent. That idea was the whole point of linking the article in the first place.
dman11235 09-08-07, 01:42 PM	Yes. Something does not have to be basic to be normal. It merely has to be consistent. That idea was the whole point of linking the article in the first place. And we get to the point of where we differ on views. I believe that the normal thing is the original base product, and you believe that it is the consistent product. That's the argument here. I do not believe that either one of us will concede.
R4za 09-10-07, 04:44 PM	They do not stack. Extend spell says: See the part I colored Blue and underlined? Normal is the duration of the spell without any other metamagics. It is not the the modified duration before you apply the Extend feat. So if you have a spell that lasts 10 minutes and you 1. apply Persistent (now lasting 24 hours) and then apply Extend Spell, it now lasts 20 minutes (twice the NORMAL duration). "Normal", as used in feat descriptions, is strictly defined as "Without the use of this feat", not "Without any unrelated modifiers". Besides, that's not how anything in DnD works. If a spell that enchanted your weapon said it deals it's normal damage plus 1d6 fire damage, would you rule that you couldn't apply your str bonus anymore? Since Persist changes the duration to a flat 24 hours and extend doubles it, by RAW it depends on the order in which you apply them. If you applied both normally (by preparing the spells in the adjusted spell slot, or casting them from one spontaneously), I think the precedent is that you get to choose the order and thus, make it work. If you prepared the spell extended and then used DMM to persist it though, it wouldn't. If you used DMM to do both, it probably would again. Either way, I'd expect DM intervention unless it's a very high powered game. DMM persist is bad enough if you don't get twice the returns for two more turn attempts.