Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heax 06-23-07, 06:17 PM	Using the Extra spell, can a sorcerer learn a normally-divine spell? Or vice versa? Say, a cleric taking Extra Spell to learn Draconic polymorph? I thought you were able to, but recently a fellow gamer nay'd it. Can you do this?
Tallow 06-23-07, 06:29 PM	Using the Extra spell, can a sorcerer learn a normally-divine spell? Or vice versa? Say, a cleric taking Extra Spell to learn Draconic polymorph? I thought you were able to, but recently a fellow gamer nay'd it. Can you do this? The feat does not specify. However, as a GM I'd rule no. A good rule of thumb, is if it doesn't say you can, don't assume you can just because it doesn't say you can't. In other words, a sorcerer, wizard, bard, cleric, druid, et. al. all have specific ways to learn spells from specific spell lists. All the extra spell feat should allow them to do is choose another spell from their respective spell list to learn. Andy
Salla 06-23-07, 06:31 PM	Using the Extra spell, can a sorcerer learn a normally-divine spell? Or vice versa? Say, a cleric taking Extra Spell to learn Draconic polymorph? I thought you were able to, but recently a fellow gamer nay'd it. Can you do this? The FAQ/Sage specify that you can't select any spell that isn't on your own class spell list (which, for example, makes the feat useless for the Warmage and Beguiler, who automatically know their entire spell list).
heax 06-23-07, 09:37 PM	So, in the text of the Complete Arcane, when talking about the Wizard, when it refers to 'lacks access to' it means prohibited schools?
Tallow 06-23-07, 10:01 PM	So, in the text of the Complete Arcane, when talking about the Wizard, when it refers to 'lacks access to' it means prohibited schools? Perhaps. Although I initially read that as spells not in the Magical Library or some discovered spell book. But at every level that the Wizard could gain a new spell, he could of course just choose a spell he has access to to learn. But then, if there were two such spells, Extra Spell would make sense.
Shadowed1 06-24-07, 04:19 AM	The FAQ/Sage specify that you can't select any spell that isn't on your own class spell list (which, for example, makes the feat useless for the Warmage and Beguiler, who automatically know their entire spell list). So which holds sway? FAQ or customer service? I have an answer from CS saying that a Beguiler could indeed use Extra Spell. :confused:
Merestil Haye 06-24-07, 07:42 AM	So, in the text of the Complete Arcane, when talking about the Wizard, when it refers to 'lacks access to' it means prohibited schools?No, of course not. A character can use Extra Spell to learn a spell that is on his class spell list. A specialist wizard gives up all access to his forbidden schools and they are no longer on that character's class spell list. He cannot learn them with Extra Spell. Extra Spell is little or no use to Wizards, unless they desperately need to learn a spell on their spell list and (for one reason or another) the DM has decreed it unavailable. So which holds sway? FAQ or customer service? I have an answer from CS saying that a Beguiler could indeed use Extra Spell. :confused:The FAQ is written by the game's head developer (and formerly by a lead developer). They have design files and their memories to draw on. The CS team have none of these advantages, and cannot ask the developers questions in real-time. The FAQ has its problems, mostly contradictory answers, but is certainly a testament to designers intent in such cases. CS were in error.
risner 06-24-07, 09:52 AM	Using the Extra spell, can a sorcerer learn a normally-divine spell? You can only use Extra Spell to add a spell already on your class spell list, but not yet on your known spell list. Nothing in the text of Extra Spell even hints at being able to take spells not on your class spell list and nothing exempts you from the general rules of spells (which prohibits spells not on your class spell list.) Sorcerers have access to "unusual spells", which if you get the article in Dragon 338, it is explained that "unusual spells" refers to the bloodline feats (where you get 1 spell per level of a set list added to your spell list) and special DM quests that grant similar sets of DM designed spells sets (9). So, in the text of the Complete Arcane, when talking about the Wizard, when it refers to 'lacks access to' it means prohibited schools? No, because prohibited schools are not on your spell list (and not allowed to be chosen by Extra Spell.) That text simply means "goch, my DM is a bad guy, and won't let me find a scroll of Fireball so I had to Extra Spell it." But more likely it means "hmm this is a one shot, so I will take Extra Spell to get one more spell for my one shot game Wizard." In other words, you only take it when the DM says you need to take that for this spell because it is rare or you simply want one more free spell and are willing to pay a feat for it. Not much use for this feat as a Wizard. Excellent feat for a Sorcerer. So which holds sway? FAQ or customer service? I have an answer from CS saying that a Beguiler could indeed use Extra Spell. :confused: I have seen a CR response about Beguiler taking Extra Spell, and it wasn't clear that he understood your statement that a Beguiler knew all their spells. In other words, he could have assumed Sorcerer. Also on the hierarchy of reliable responses, the FAQ is more reliable. CSR responses are from people like us. FAQ responses are from lead designers and assumed to be more accurate responses that CSR responses.
NeueRegel 06-24-07, 11:48 AM	We only play pure core rules 3.5 so I am not familiar with this feat "Extra Spell". But I have to point out a basic core rule, and "exception to the rule" here. The Sorcerer class has a unique distinction here, and, I quote directly from the SRD: A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however. Now, given, this is not terribly specific, and, we as a group have our unwritten "houserules" I guess, for instance no "cure" spells and that. But I happen to have a sorcerer that I wanted to be a "pyromaniac", and in addition to all of the fire spells on that list, he also has 7 or so ranks in each of Knowledge: Religion and Knowledge: Outer Planes; And because of this "having gained some understanding by study", He has as his high level spells, "Flamestrike" and "Summon Nature's Ally V" (limited to Fire Elemental (large) only). We'd never allow this of any other class. But Sorcerers are just fun like this. And truth be told, it's sort of "metagaming" to tell a sorcerer "you can't do that,it's not on the official sorcerer list!". Our characters aren't really supposed to know "what level, how many hit points, etc"... Who's to tell a headstrong sorcerer that he can't flamestrike? Neue
Shadowed1 06-24-07, 06:17 PM	I have seen a CR response about Beguiler taking Extra Spell, and it wasn't clear that he understood your statement that a Beguiler knew all their spells. In other words, he could have assumed Sorcerer. Also on the hierarchy of reliable responses, the FAQ is more reliable. CSR responses are from people like us. FAQ responses are from lead designers and assumed to be more accurate responses that CSR responses. Well the response I received seemed VERY clear. Note, I did mention the fixed spell lists. Subject Beguilers and Extra Spell feat. Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 06/10/2007 03:21 PM (XXXXX,) Thank you for writing. A Beguiler could indeed use this feat to gain an additional spell, provided all the feat's requirements were met. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (XXXXX XXXXX) 06/10/2007 06:07 AM I've read many unsubstantiated refrences to fixed spell lists, however as long as the beguiler still had pending Advanced Learning slots available,his/her list would not be fixed. This would seem to indicate that any illusion/ench spell was still available. Can the Extra Spell feat be used by Beguilers to gain an additional Illusion/Enchantment Spell? ******************** Page Number: 79/80 & 6-8 Book Name: Complete Arcane & PHBII Auto-Response 06/10/2007 06:07 AM
Merestil Haye 06-24-07, 07:07 PM	Well the response I received seemed VERY clear. Note, I did mention the fixed spell lists.No, you were not clear to CS about the nature of the Beguiler's spell list. There is an essential distinction between a class spell list and a character's spell list. The former is the list of spells that every member of the class knows, and the latter is the list of spells that a specific member of the class knows, as modified by class features that the character has attained. A Beguiler automatically knows all the spells on his class spell list without exception. The Advanced Learning class feature has either had effect (if he has reached the relevant class level) or simply does not exist (because he has not reached the level). Extra Spell cannot be used by a beguiler without houseruling. The FAQ is correct, and CS wrong. CS is so often wrong that they simply cannot be trusted on anything. There are posters on this board that I'd trust over a CS response, because the posters spend more time reading the rules and applying them in real-game situations.
risner 06-24-07, 08:58 PM	Well the response I received seemed VERY clear. Note, I did mention the fixed spell lists. A Beguiler could indeed use this feat to gain an additional spell, provided all the feat's requirements were met. Notice, the response didn't tell you anything you didn't already know. A beguiler can not use Extra Spell to add a spell not already on his list. So following the "requirements" for the feat, you wouldn't gain any benefit. The feats requirements are "on class spell list" but not yet on "my personal spell list." That is the response I also saw before that is anything but clear that he understood the Beguiler spell list is limited. Ask it again, and I believe you will get a different response. Ask this: A beguiler automatically knows all spells on his personal spell list on the Beguiler class spell list. Can Extra Spell add a spell that is not on already on his class spell list to his personal spell list? Say like Heal? I do believe you will get a different response from that CS rep when phrased in such a way that it doesn't depend on his knowledge of the class (Beguiler.) But I have to point out a basic core rule, and "exception to the rule" here. The Sorcerer class has a unique distinction here, Look at my post just above your post. I point out where they wrote a Dragon article that details exactly what "unusual spells" meant when they wrote those words in the Players Handbook.
Shadowed1 06-25-07, 01:43 AM	With due respect to risner & Merestil Haye, I must agree to disagree. I find it rather ridiculous that both of you seem to be basing a large part of an argument on the "mis-understanding" of a CS rep. Can they be wrong? Yes. However, on that same note Can FAQ be wrong? Yes again. I find it rather difficult to believe that WoTC would throw just anybody behind the desk in CS. As to this statement risner made. The feats requirements are "on class spell list" but not yet on "my personal spell list." It is flat out wrong. The only prerequisite for the Extra Spell feat is that you be 3rd lvl. As to the Beguiler Spell list, Advanced Learning clearly states the addition of a NEW spell to your list. How can a spell be new to a list if, by your argument, it is a fixed list? It reads..." At 3rd level, you add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation..." I have read the numerous threads dedicated to the "Extra Spell" question. It has been thoroughly debated (sometimes heatedly) and it would seem in my mind that few minds have been changed on the subject. When I weigh the arguments I'm faced with this. Arcane casters have a variety of ways to add arcane spells to their lists, so as far as the "balance" issue goes, it isn't one. Specialist Wizards can add a spell from their prohibited schools to their list by way of a feat. (if you want to waste 3 feats you can cast all the spells from a prohibited school) The Arcane Disciple feat allows an arcane caster access to 9 spells, that while cast as arcane spells (with WIS mod) are often divine in origin. The Epic feat Spell Knowledge allows you to add two arcane spells to your list. The Eclectic Learning Variant allows the Warmage access to spells from schools initially unavailable to the class. The precedent in conflicting rules between texts is clear, the most recent is followed. If there is a similar precedent for rules interpretation that clearly states FAQ always overrides CS then you will find me both corrected and converted. Until then, Beguilers in my campaign will be allowed to access Illusion/Ench spells by way of the Extra Spell feat. This is NOT houseruling this is a ruling from WoTC CS who (for better or worse) are in a position to make said rulings.
Merestil Haye 06-25-07, 03:35 AM	I find it rather ridiculous that both of you seem to be basing a large part of an argument on the "mis-understanding" of a CS rep. Can they be wrong? Yes. However, on that same note Can FAQ be wrong? Yes again. I find it rather difficult to believe that WoTC would throw just anybody behind the desk in CS.Of course they would. It's a job. They may be hired because they are close to the office, and need a job. Not because they love games. They may simply be answering a question on a game they don't play and have no understanding of. They have no special qualifications whatsoever. What they say is not official. Until then, Beguilers in my campaign will be allowed to access Illusion/Ench spells by way of the Extra Spell feat. This is NOT houseruling this is a ruling from WoTC CS who (for better or worse) are in a position to make said rulings.Yes, it is. We've been over this ground over and over again here (not just in this thread - it comes up monthly or thereabouts). We've looked at all the arguments. CS is disagreeing with this conclusion we have collectively reached, supported by the FAQ. They are not "official answers." If you want that, ask the Sage. You know, Andy Collins? The man who wrote the answer in the FAQ? Frankly your e-mail to CS did not convince me that you had told them all the facts, thus you are getting a skewed answer. Also, you are ignoring the distinction between a class spell list and a character's spell list. The two can change; but you can not take unearned class abilities into account - after all, the character might never take enough levels in the class to earn the ability. A Beguiler's last Advanced Learning pick does not exist "in potentia" until he reaches the appropriate level - it does not exist at all. The class spell list is always fixed, and it is the class spell list, not the character spell list, that limits what spell can be chosen with Extra Spell.
Polaris 06-25-07, 04:14 AM	Sorry, but G.I.G.O. (Garbage In-Garbage Out). In fact a bit more than a year ago I asked CS specifically if I was allowed to take extra-spell to get a spell that wasn't on my spell-list. CS said no and referred me to the FAQ. After reading that letter, it sounds to me like the CS-Rep didn't understand that Bequilers know all spells on their class list, and you didn't go out of your way to explain that which renders the answer you get less than convincing or even authorative. Don't believe me? Fine. Ask CS specifically this: Can a caster use the feat, "Extra Spell" to get a spell that otherwise is not on his class list? I guarantee you the answer will be "no". -Polaris
risner 06-25-07, 10:37 AM	Don't believe me? Fine. Ask CS specifically this: Can a caster use the feat, "Extra Spell" to get a spell that otherwise is not on his class list? I agree, Shadowed1 asked the question in a way that is absolutely unclear that the responder knew the details of the class. The answer in no strong way suggests you can take the feat Extra Spell to gain a spell not otherwise on your spell list. Shadowed1, please ask your question again in a way that the response is not ambiguous.
tarkin 06-25-07, 11:14 AM	1. There are clearly abusive builds if you ignore the FAQ and House Rule that you can use the feat Extra Spell to take spells not on your list. ------- 2. These abuses depend on the fact that Extra Spell was NOT intended to do this, and as such leaves out several NECCESSARY INSTRUCTIONS on how to deal with certain very common occurences. A. Specifically, spells that are on multiple lists, at different levels. Prime example is Otto's irresitable Dance: Bard 6, Wizard 8 (why? see below). B. Spells on 'short lists', such as Bard, where you gain 6th level spells much later than 11th level, and therefore they put spells that, if they were on a Sorceror list, would be 8th level spells. The spell lists were desigened for the class they came with, and are NOT expected to be fair for other classes. Example: Sympathetic Vibration is on the Bard's list as a 6th level spell. If on the Wizard's list, it would probably be a 7th or 8th level spell. ------- 3. To the people who let Sorceors learn other spells - that line is SUPPOSED to be with a feat, such as a bloodline feat. Just because something is possible does not mean it is free. It is possible for me to get to San Francisco in less than 5 hours. That means I can run at Mach 2, it means I have enough cash in my bank account to buy a plan ticket.
NeueRegel 06-25-07, 12:28 PM	Tarkin wrote: 3. To the people who let Sorceors learn other spells - that line is SUPPOSED to be with a feat, such as a bloodline feat. Just because something is possible does not mean it is free. And, good Sir Tarkin, while I usually take heed of what you've got to say, I must play the devil's advocate on this point. The description in the PHB which I quoted was published LONG before any of the later material was ever even conceived; I don't know what this "bloodline" feat stuff is, and I certainly don't have access to various hundreds of Dragon Magazines that talk about this stuff, so I'm sorta out of all of your loop, since we play only pure cure rules. Nobody sat down and penned the bit about sorcerers being able to learn unusual spells with the caveat of, "And yeah, we'll explain that in splatbooks later". Of course, were I to take my pyromaniac sorcerer to a game of strangers, and the DM said, "Nope, that don't fly, no Flamestrike for you!", I wouldn't go home crying or anything. I'd just slip into something more RAW and borrow a couple of normal sorcerer spells for the day, or just use the slots for lower level fireballs or something. Each to his/her own, right? It's all good. Neue PS. Oh, yeah, and I forgot to add: You're absolutely right, nothing is FREE. Notice that I also did mention that my sorcerer in question did spend 14 skill points, 7 each in Knowledge: Religion and in Knowledge: The Planes, to justify his learning those two "unusual" spells", and I kept them thematic and logically reasoned, not just "any old great spell".
Nom 06-25-07, 07:57 PM	People think too hard about the "unusual spells" in the sorcerer text. All this is saying is that sorcerers can do spell research to learn new spells, just like a wizard, cleric, or any other caster. Similarly, a DM might require that a wizard use "extra spell" to learn a particular rare existing spell or to learn a new spell. He might do the same for a cleric (PH pg 180 makes it clear that clerics don't automatically get access to "new" cleric spells).
Shadowed1 06-25-07, 09:02 PM	Gentlemen, I'd ask you to take note of my initial post on this thread. I asked which held sway, FAQ or CS. While there has been ample opinion offered, I see little to no fact. We've been over this ground over and over again here (not just in this thread - it comes up monthly or thereabouts). We've looked at all the arguments. CS is disagreeing with this conclusion we have collectively reached, supported by the FAQ. They are not "official answers." If you want that, ask the Sage. You know, Andy Collins? The man who wrote the answer in the FAQ? They have no special qualifications whatsoever. What they say is not official. You speak to what is and isn't "official" and at the same time include.... ".......CS is disagreeing with this conclusion we have collectively reached, supported by the FAQ." You'll forgive me if I don't subscribe to the "official" interpretations of "we....collectively" Below is a section taken from the most updated version of the FAQ, a source you cite as official. About the FAQ If you have a question about the D&D game rules, you might find them within this FAQ. Any new additions or major corrections in a version are provided in red text for your convenience. Red text changes to black text in the next version. This version of the D&D FAQ uses the 3.5 revision of the core rules and also contains questions covering material from a variety of books (such as Savage Species and Epic Level Handbook). If you haven’t yet adopted the revision, don’t worry—in the rare instance that the answer is different between 3rd edition and the 3.5 revision, we’ll bring it to your attention with a call out that says “Revision Alert.” If you have a question that isn’t answered here, please contact us via the following URL and ask away: <http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php>. You can also contact the Sage by writing to him at these handy locations: Email: sageadvice@paizo.com Mail: “Sage Advice” Paizo Publishing 3245 146th PL SE, Suite 110 Bellevue, WA 98007 We will be updating this FAQ over time, and each version will have a date stamp on it so that you know which version you have. You'll note that this section links directly to customer service for the resolutions of questions, as well as writing the sage(whom you also hold as an official source). So an official source would first direct you to a non-official source for resolution, then back to an official source? I'm sorry, the logic doesn't follow in that argument. I agree, Shadowed1 asked the question in a way that is absolutely unclear that the responder knew the details of the class. The answer in no strong way suggests you can take the feat Extra Spell to gain a spell not otherwise on your spell list. Shadowed1, please ask your question again in a way that the response is not ambiguous. There was absolutely nothing unclear about my question. I've read many unsubstantiated references to fixed spell lists, however as long as the beguiler still had pending Advanced Learning slots available,his/her list would not be fixed. This would seem to indicate that any illusion/ench spell was still available. Can the Extra Spell feat be used by Beguilers to gain an additional Illusion/Enchantment Spell? Nor was there ambiguity in the CS answer. Thank you for writing. A Beguiler could indeed use this feat to gain an additional spell, provided all the feat's requirements were met. I was specific on the consideration of fixed spell lists, and the fact my questioned concerned Beguilers. The only ambiguity is that introduced by those who try and question the CSRs knowledge and or understanding of the game. 1. There are clearly abusive builds if you ignore the FAQ and House Rule that you can use the feat Extra Spell to take spells not on your list. Please do not take my position and lump me in with the abusive power-build crowd. I am not houseruling anything. I have an answer from WoTC CS and that is how I am conducting my campaign. My question to CS was specific and that is how it will be applied. Beguilers may use the Extra Spell feat to gain an additional Illusion/Ench spell. The PHB II is specific that the Illusion/Ench focus of Beguilers is taken from the wiz/sor spell list, therefore any spell gain from the use of this feat will come from Illusion/Ench schools of the wiz/sor list. There will be no spells taken from lower level Bards lists, or anyone taking Heal. As before gentlemen, if there is a published reference that clearly states FAQ overrides CS then I will of course accept that ruling. Until that time, any opinion on the validity of one over the other is just that. opinion. Personally, I'm hoping the upcoming Rules Compendium will have definitive text on the matter.
Polaris 06-25-07, 09:14 PM	People think too hard about the "unusual spells" in the sorcerer text. All this is saying is that sorcerers can do spell research to learn new spells, just like a wizard, cleric, or any other caster. Agreed. Similarly, a DM might require that a wizard use "extra spell" to learn a particular rare existing spell or to learn a new spell. He might do the same for a cleric (PH pg 180 makes it clear that clerics don't automatically get access to "new" cleric spells). Actually that's not quite true. Page 33 of the PHB contricts this: A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list (page 183), provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. The rule you quoted deals with and only with player created spells and does not supercede the rule I've quoted. If a new spell appears on the cleric spell list (in a new published supplement), then a cleric can cast it. Only alignment changes the clerical spell list in this regard, and those rules are pretty well laid out. Shadowed1, Sorry, but I've asked the same question to CS, but unlike you I had the courtesy to ask them directly and unambigiously. You can not use Extra Spell to learn a spell not on your class list because there is nothing in the feat that says you can. Period. End-Of-Discussion. Don't believe me? Fine. Ask them yourself in a clear and unambigious manner. It sure seems to me given your letter that you tried to 'trick' CS into the answer you wanted. Sorry, but some of us are going to call you on it. -Polaris
risner 06-25-07, 10:02 PM	There was absolutely nothing unclear about my question. Nor was there ambiguity in the CS answer. We shall agree to disagree. I am not sure your question could have been more unclear even if you had written it intentionally unclear.
Shadowed1 06-25-07, 10:14 PM	Shadowed1, Sorry, but I've asked the same question to CS, but unlike you I had the courtesy to ask them directly and unambigiously. You can not use Extra Spell to learn a spell not on your class list because there is nothing in the feat that says you can. Period. End-Of-Discussion. Don't believe me? Fine. Ask them yourself in a clear and unambigious manner. It sure seems to me given your letter that you tried to 'trick' CS into the answer you wanted. Sorry, but some of us are going to call you on it. -Polaris Sorry, but I fail to see your "ambiguity" Here again is my post. I've read many unsubstantiated refrences to fixed spell lists, however as long as the beguiler still had pending Advanced Learning slots available,his/her list would not be fixed. This would seem to indicate that any illusion/ench spell was still available. Can the Extra Spell feat be used by Beguilers to gain an additional Illusion/Enchantment Spell? I at the onset of my question specifically reference fixed spell lists, I then offer my counter argument to that opinion. I then ask a very specific question, which was answered in an equally specific manner. I'm sorry, but to try and infer that I was somehow trying to trick CS when I gave them the premise of what many here use as the basis of a counter argument against the use of Extra Spell is completely disingenuous. Unlike many here, I don't believe in the theory that CS is peopled with individuals with no grasp of the basics of the game.
Polaris 06-25-07, 10:21 PM	Shadowed1, Sorry but the question was at best vague and at worst deliberately misleading. Here's how I would have asked the question like this: Dear (polite verbage): The extra spell feat indicates you can take an extra spell. Can you use this feat to take a spell that is not on your class list? If you can't use the feat to take such a spell (not on your class list), then can Beguilers use this feat to gain new spells since they automatically know all the spells on their class list? See how simple that is? You seem to be deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue by talking about Beguilers and fixed list. The answer was actually accurate, "Yes if they otherwise qualify." It's just that normally Beguilers don't qualify and there is nothing in the feat that says they do (nor in your answer). -Polaris
Shadowed1 06-25-07, 10:21 PM	We shall agree to disagree. Indeed, it would seem so. I am not sure your question could have been more unclear even if you had written it intentionally unclear. That I'm afraid will have to remain your problem.
Polaris 06-25-07, 10:26 PM	Shadowed1, If you didn't intend to be deliberately obscure, then why didn't you simply ask the question in the way I presented it above? Instead you obliquely refer to the Bequiler and 'fixed lists' assuming that off the top of his head the Service Rep will understand you. If I've learned anything about Customer Service (of any sort), it's that you can't assume anything is understood and certainly not references such as 'fixed lists'. Why didn't you spell it out? It wouldn't have made your letter longer. -Polaris
Pentar 06-25-07, 11:19 PM	Gentlemen, I'd ask you to take note of my initial post on this thread. I asked which held sway, FAQ or CS. While there has been ample opinion offered, I see little to no fact. I don't think there is "fact" on which you want to listen to. It's personal choice. It sounds to me that one is giving you an answer you want to hear, and the other is not. Therefore, you are inclined to listen and agree with the answer you want to hear. No big deal. It's human nature. IMHO, I wouldn't listen to either and go with gut instinct. My gut instinct tells me Extra Spell was meant for classes with limited spell selection and limited ability to learn new spells (like Sorcs and Bards). It benefits them far more than others. This is nothing new. There are plenty of feats that help one class more than it helps others. You'll forgive me if I don't subscribe to the "official" interpretations of "we....collectively" Communist!! Release the hounds!! Honestly, nothing anyone can say will convince you that one is right over the other. I don't think any of the Core D&D materials has a rule that says, "If the CS and FAQ disagree with each other, follow the... <insert>". Go with who you want to listen to, because obviously, that is what you're going to do anyway.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-25-07, 11:20 PM	I'd house-rule on this one. RAW, the feat is useless for anyone but a sorcerer. However, I'd rule that a spell caster can take this feat to add any spell from thier type of magic to thier spell list, as long as it wasn't prohibited to them. Examples. A wizard could take this to gain access to an arcane spell that is on the bard list, but not the Sorc/Wiz list. But not to a divine spell. And not a spell from one of his prohibited schools if he's a specialist wizard. A cleric could use this feat to gain access to a Paladin or Blackgaurd spell not on the cleric list. But not to spells that are in conflict with his alignment. Likewise a paladin could use this feat to gain a cleric spell that isn't on the paladin list. Or a druid spell for that matter. As long as it doesn't violate his alignment. Or, if the clerics player made a good arguement for it, a spell from one of the domains that his diety offers, that isn't normally a divine spell. Like a 3rd level cleric of Boccab takes the feat to add identify to his standard spell list, even if he hasn't take the magic domain. That's just my personal take on it though, house-rule.
Shadowed1 06-26-07, 01:44 AM	I don't think there is "fact" on which you want to listen to. It's personal choice. It sounds to me that one is giving you an answer you want to hear, and the other is not. Therefore, you are inclined to listen and agree with the answer you want to hear. No big deal. It's human nature. IMHO, I wouldn't listen to either and go with gut instinct. My gut instinct tells me Extra Spell was meant for classes with limited spell selection and limited ability to learn new spells (like Sorcs and Bards). It benefits them far more than others. This is nothing new. There are plenty of feats that help one class more than it helps others. Communist!! Release the hounds!! Honestly, nothing anyone can say will convince you that one is right over the other. I don't think any of the Core D&D materials has a rule that says, "If the CS and FAQ disagree with each other, follow the... <insert>". Go with who you want to listen to, because obviously, that is what you're going to do anyway. You make some interesting points. However, one in which you are incorrect is your assertion that nothing will convince me the opposing position is not the correct one. My original post asked for clarification on a FAQ vs CS disagreement. My position on all of this was then and still is if there is written reference that FAQ overides CS then I will stand corrected and apply the ruling to my campaign. I think I've been very clear on this. BTW, If there is no such reference to settle the current debate, as you speculate, then your musings on human nature would apply with equal weight to the opposing view. Just something to think about.
Polaris 06-26-07, 01:50 AM	Shadowed1, You are: 1. Assuming that there is a conflict between the CS and the FAQ. As I already explained, there actually isn't. Your answer was that the Beguiler could take Extra spell if they otherwise qualified. That doesn't explicitly give that feat permission to poach spells from other classes' list no matter how hard you try. 2. You haven't yet bothered to ask CS directly what Extra Spell could or could not do and then explain the problem with the Beguiler. Until you do that, you can't convince me that a conflict in fact exists. It seems to me like you are willfully misreading the rules. Your game, but that's what I see. -Polaris P.S. *I* will go ahead and do what you will not and put an end to the debate.
NeueRegel 06-26-07, 01:51 AM	Oh, bloody hell. My sorcerer Flamestrikes you all, just cause. And Just Because I Houseruled it, that He Can. I was a pyromaniac "Warlock" long before WOTC ever made a "Warlock". Julian Sands has nothing on ME! Neue
Nom 06-26-07, 02:08 AM	Actually that's not quite true. Page 33 of the PHB contricts this:A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list (page 183), provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.Not at all. Pg 33 specifically refers to pg 183, which is the cleric spell list and domain lists as published in the Player's Handbook. The rule you quoted deals with and only with player created spells and does not supercede the rule I've quoted. If a new spell appears on the cleric spell list (in a new published supplement), then a cleric can cast it. Only alignment changes the clerical spell list in this regard, and those rules are pretty well laid out.No, the rule you quoted deals with and only with PH pg 183 ff, which is exactly what it says. There is neither requirement or expectation in general that spells published in supplements will be automatically counted as known spells for all clerics. By the same token, there is neither requirement or expectation that they will not. The DM may choose to simply add them, add them for some deities only, or use the PH pg 180 mechanics, or some combination of the above. I thought one of the RotG or FAQ articles addressed this directly, but can't find it now.
Shadowed1 06-26-07, 02:21 AM	Shadowed1, You are: 1. Assuming that there is a conflict between the CS and the FAQ. As I already explained, there actually isn't. Your answer was that the Beguiler could take Extra spell if they otherwise qualified. That doesn't explicitly give that feat permission to poach spells from other classes' list no matter how hard you try. 2. You haven't yet bothered to ask CS directly what Extra Spell could or could not do and then explain the problem with the Beguiler. Until you do that, you can't convince me that a conflict in fact exists. It seems to me like you are willfully misreading the rules. Your game, but that's what I see. -Polaris P.S. *I* will go ahead and do what you will not and put an end to the debate. You don't get it Polaris, I was never trying to convince you of anything. As my original post states, I was merely seeking guidance on if the was a standing rule on FAQ vs CS disagreement. And please go right ahead and ask CS anything you wish. If you should get a contradictory answer, I'm going to enjoy watching the sudden reversal of opinion on how "official" CS is, or the sudden rise in faith for their grasp of the game fundamentals. One things for sure, you'll prove Pentars Human Nature musings correct.
Shadowed1 06-26-07, 02:33 AM	Oh, bloody hell. My sorcerer Flamestrikes you all, just cause. And Just Because I Houseruled it, that He Can. I was a pyromaniac "Warlock" long before WOTC ever made a "Warlock". Julian Sands has nothing on ME! Neue Point taken Neue, this is getting alittle drawn.
Polaris 06-26-07, 03:04 AM	Nom, Sorry but no. If a book with clerical spells is allowed into the game, then those spells are added to the cleric spell list. If the list on page 183 was supposed to be exclusive, then it would not have been a parenthetical statement on page 33. Parenthetical statements can be excluded without altering the meaning of a rule (they serve only to clarify). If a spell is on the clerical list, then all clerics have access to it, level and alignment permitting. It's one big reason clerics are overpowered. -Polaris
Pentar 06-26-07, 11:54 AM	You make some interesting points. However, one in which you are incorrect is your assertion that nothing will convince me the opposing position is not the correct one. My original post asked for clarification on a FAQ vs CS disagreement. My position on all of this was then and still is if there is written reference that FAQ overides CS then I will stand corrected and apply the ruling to my campaign. I think I've been very clear on this. Unfortunately, the only reference we have is that, "sometimes the FAQ is right, sometimes the CS are right". Go with what makes sense. BTW, If there is no such reference to settle the current debate, as you speculate, then your musings on human nature would apply with equal weight to the opposing view. Just something to think about. Absolutely - except in my case, there are several mitigating factors: - I have no vested interest, either personal or professional, in seeing it ruled one way or another. - No one in my gaming campaigns or in my D&D party has this feat or has ever really looked at it. Ergo, whatever is ruled on this feat has no impact on our game or campaign. - I certainly did not start this thread, nor send a message to a CS to inquire as to its workings, for the above reasons. I am completely neutral in this matter, be it ruled one way or another. I am not seeking to hear only one side, nor am I leaning to a side whose answer best suits my personal goals or interests. I'm stating an opinion based on my understanding of rules, precedence on similar feats and general common sense.
risner 06-26-07, 10:16 PM	I got a response: Subject Beguilers and Extra Spell Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 06/26/2007 03:04 PM James, Thank you for writing. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the Beguiler already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect. Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST The Feat from Complete Arcana "Extra Spell" adds a new spell to your class spell list. It does not say the spell can come from any spell list. Beguilers automatically know all spell on their class spell list. Someone asked you recently if a Beguiler could use Extra Spell to add a spell to their spell list from any spell list. Rob from Customer Service responded that the Beguiler could add any spell from any spell list (including for example any Cleric spell) to the Beguiler class spell list and the Beguiler could cast the spell. This is in disagreement with the FAQ answer related to the War Mage (who also know all the spells on their spell list) and I believe in disagreement with the rules of the Beguiler. There are many cases (one example is Wyrm Wizard) where the phrase "from any spell list" is used when the desire is to write an ability that can actually provide any spell from any list. Extra Spell is one of them that simply doesn't provide any spell from any list, or am I wrong? ******************** Page Number: 6 Book Name: Players Hanbook II Auto-Response 06/24/2007 11:23 PM
Shadowed1 06-26-07, 11:04 PM	I got a response: As did I. Rob emailed me early this afternoon offering an apology and a retraction of and for the error of his previous ruling on this issue. To all those who were involved in this vehement debate, rest assured I shall accept this retraction and adjust the play of my campaign accordingly. Regards
risner 06-27-07, 02:52 AM	To all those who were involved in this vehement debate, rest assured I shall accept this retraction and adjust the play of my campaign accordingly. Thank you. In the future, it is usually best to ask the question of the CS reps in a way they don't need to reference the book (as much) for tiny details (like Beguilers knowing all their spells automatically.)