Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gmhack 04-29-07, 11:06 AM	Do familiars ever gain more feats & skill points as their master increases in level? And if so how does the progression work, is it based off of the masters HD or do a certain number of additional hp = a HD? Thanks in advance.
Inigo Carmine 04-29-07, 11:45 AM	no.
gmhack 04-29-07, 11:49 AM	no. Well doesnt that kinda make them suck, particularly when compared to animal companions?
SpoonyBard 04-29-07, 11:54 AM	No, because familiars get all the master's skill ranks. This allows familiars to use crazy awsome skills like Use Magic Device and crazy hilarious ones like Craft (Basketweaving) (Just imagine a snake familiar weaving a basket. And don't ask how he does it.) Rember: An animal companion can bite your enemy. A familiar can fly up to them and use Combust. Familiar wins. Also, familiars are smart, which is a HUGE advantage. In the game I'm in, while the Bard used Gather Information to scour the bars, his Tressym (Tressem? Tressim?)... His winged cat improved familiar (cost two feats, but SO WORTH IT) went around town using Gather Information by talking to all the cats in town. The bard rolled a 4. The cat rolled an 18. Can't do THAT with an animal companion.
penchant 04-29-07, 02:03 PM	Yeah, the deliver touch spell ability of a familiar essentially allows a spell caster to make any touch spell into a ranged spell with the reach of whatever movement your familiar has. The feat Combat Familiar allows the tiny creature to enter someone's square without provoking attacks of opportunity while delivering the touch spell. Plus there are familiar buff spells out there and improved famliar feats. Then there are grafts...:evillaugh
Nom 04-29-07, 09:44 PM	To elaborate: Familiar skill ranks = master's skill ranks (unless native animal has better) Familiar hp = 1/2 master's hit points Familiar effective HD = master's HD (unless native animal has better) Familiar BAB = master's BAB Familar Base saves = master base saves (or +2/+2/+0, if better) (notice a pattern? ;) )
BW0222 04-30-07, 11:22 AM	SpoonyBard, Familiars make good scouts, are useful for guard duty, carry messages, and may be able to assist the party in other ways, but you appear to be crediting them with things they are not able to do. This allows familiars to use crazy awsome skills like Use Magic Device and crazy hilarious ones like Craft (Basketweaving) (Just imagine a snake familiar weaving a basket. And don't ask how he does it.) PHB specifically says that familiars may be incapable of using certain skills. A snake can't use craft (basketweaving) to make a basket. It might be useful in examining a basket. Most familiars could not use use magical device since they couldn't open a scroll case, hold a wand, or wield a staff. Rember: An animal companion can bite your enemy. A familiar can fly up to them and use Combust. Familiar wins. Remember. 1. Most familiars are tiny and have a reach of 0'. They need to enter the target's square in order to attack it. This provokes an AoO. 2. Few touch spells will kill or disable an opponent of equal APL. 3. A familiar has 1/2 his master's hit points. The familiar of a 5th-level wizard likely only has 10-12hp. A familiar of a 10th-level wizard might have 20hp. Few creatures of this APL could not disable or kill the familiar in one hit. An ogre against a 10hp creature or a trio of dire lions against a 20hp creature? 4. Unless the familiar has both surprise (and wins initiative) the familiar is then subjected to a full attack from who ever it attacked (and possibly several of his friends). 5. Most flying familiars do not have good manuverability. This means they can't hover, make 90 degree turns in less than 10' or 180 degree turns in less than 20'. This would also use up significant flying speed as does climbing. i.e. it could use half it's movement just to turn around. 6. In order to leave the target's square, it needs to move through a threatened square -- even using the withdrawl action -- and it provokes another AoO. 7. Since most familiars are not that fast, even flying ones can rarely move far enough away to avoid being charged or at least subject to missile fire. 8. If your familiar dies... chances are you won't be getting much XP for the adventure - or even going negative. Honestly, the chance that a familiar could survive delivering any type of touch attack against most foes would by maybe 10% or so. Even with massive buffing -- mage armor, invisibility, expeditious retreat, stoneskin, etc. you might get it up to 50% -- which is a massive expendature of resources just to deliver a tough spell. The consequences of lossing a familiar are likely such that you won't risk it except in the most dire of circumstances. Most familiars upon learning of a plan to go cast touch spell on an ogre would probably say... "I'm not that stupid. If it is so easy... why won't the master try it?" The bard rolled a 4. The cat rolled an 18. And the bard would likely know the names of a few of the inn patrons and that they aren't too friendy. The cat would likely learn that 'normal' cats are stupid. Many run away from cats with wings and the few that were too stupid to run away told him the best places to catch mice, find garbage to eat, and talk endlessly about the best fence posts to scent-mark. Honestly, unless you are hunting wererats... you aren't likely to find out much from cats. They lack the intelligence to report on things which they might have seen. They can't say... "I saw a wizard with a gargolye break into that house two days ago." Their attention span is a few hours at best (baring repeative happenings) and even simple concepts such as "days" are beyond them.
SpoonyBard 04-30-07, 12:05 PM	-It says familiars can't use certain skills. It doesn't specify which ones. Surely you would concede that a Raven familiar could use Craft (basketweaving?). At the very least, your familiar could provide you with a +2 aid another by helping you with materials. If a familiar can pick up a wand in its teeth or put a scroll on the ground in front of it, it can try to use it. Alternatively: improved familiar for a Mephit. It can now do everything. 1-Reach can be improved on of a multitude of ways, and Combat Familiar is just plain convinient. 2-I'm not sure what APL means, but touch spells tend to be stronger than ranged spells at the same level. Compare Ghoul Touch with other spells of its level. 3-You seem to be assuming that the familiar is making itself the biggest target, or that you're sending your familiar blindly in first. You still don't send your familiar in before the tank, just like a Wizard wouldn't go in before the tank. 4-Once again, this is assuming the familiar is the only threat in the area. They're used as part of a team. 5- Have you never heard the phrase "As the Crow flies?" A familiar's going to be moving in a straight line, easily getting to a foe. Also, Wings of Swift Flying, at higher levels, is just plain useful. 6- This is assuming that your touch range spell didn't defeat the foe (and a touch range spell SHOULD), assuming it's not taking it's AoO on something else, and assuming the familiar feels the need to leave its square. Of course, you could drop one of many low level spells to getyour familiar out of there. 7- You don't need to fly FAR to avoid being charged, you just need to fly UP. 8- Which is why you don't let the familiar die. I don't know what parties you've been in, but I've used lots of familiars, used them intelligently to deliver touch spells, and never once lost a familiar. I don't know what tactics you use, but mine work fine. Also: One Round, Familiar gets a charge for combust. Next, cast Combust and Both go in together. Yes, the Tressym learned that most cats are stupid. However, with a gather information check of over thirty, he managed to find *gasp* A CAT FAMILIAR! Heck, having him find another Tressym wouldn't have been much of a stretch. I'm sure one things cats know is territory, and if he's looking for the territory of a winged cat, or a magic cat, he shouldn't have too much trouble in a town large enough to have them.
feraltibbit 04-30-07, 12:11 PM	Is it possible 2 slap a template on a familiar? Or would that be a DM-call?
PhaedrusXY 04-30-07, 12:17 PM	Just cast Alter Self on it, and turn it into something with hands, if the DM gives you a hard time about what skills it can and cannot use. You can even do this via Share Spells, if you want to be cheap and not "waste" a spellslot on it.
Puca 04-30-07, 12:54 PM	Everything is a DM call. Anything that increases the power of a familiar, like a template, should require the Improved Familiar feat. -It says familiars can't use certain skills. It doesn't specify which ones. Surely you would concede that a Raven familiar could use Craft (basketweaving?). At the very least, your familiar could provide you with a +2 aid another by helping you with materials. If a familiar can pick up a wand in its teeth or put a scroll on the ground in front of it, it can try to use it.Sort of hard to pronounce that command word with a stick in your mouth. :) I would not say that a raven could craft a wicker basket. Even Aiding Another by helping me with materials seems a serious stretch. 1-Reach can be improved on of a multitude of ways,Like what? and Combat Familiar is just plain convinient.It is helpful. It does let you make that touch attack, but then your familiar is right up there by your opponent, and it needs to get back to you somehow. Combat Familiar doesnt protect you from AoOs in the next round when your familiar tries to leave that square. 2-I'm not sure what APL means, but touch spells tend to be stronger than ranged spells at the same level. Compare Ghoul Touch with other spells of its level.I agree. There are some really good touch spells out there. The fact that you need to be up close and personal to use them balances with the fact that many dont offer a save (Touch of Idiocy, Vampire Touch, etc.) 3-You seem to be assuming that the familiar is making itself the biggest target, or that you're sending your familiar blindly in first. You still don't send your familiar in before the tank, just like a Wizard wouldn't go in before the tank.It isnt the biggest target, but it is a target. If is completely ineffective, then there is no point in attacking it, but as soon as it offers a meaningful contribution, then it is a viable target. The wizard can stay behind the tank and contribute, really, really well. But to deliver a touch spell, the familiar has to be out there, and then hes at risk, and if hes zapping your opponents, they will target him, and he has shite for hit points. (Actually, you have shite; he has ½ of shite.) 4-Once again, this is assuming the familiar is the only threat in the area. They're used as part of a team.Again, if it is doing your side any good, it will draw attacks. You cant have it both ways; you cant contribute and be considered no threat. 5- Have you never heard the phrase "As the Crow flies?" A familiar's going to be moving in a straight line, easily getting to a foe.A straight line can provoke multiple AoOs on a battlefield. You can afford none. 6- This is assuming that your touch range spell didn't defeat the foe (and a touch range spell SHOULD), I think thats a reasonable assumption. There are a lot of really, really good touch spells, but that doesnt guarantee success. You have to consider how youre going to get your familiar out before you send it in. 7- You don't need to fly FAR to avoid being charged, you just need to fly UP.Maximum climb angle is 60°. Your up-speed is half your normal speed, which is also your minimum speed. 8- Which is why you don't let the familiar die.Easier said than done. A lot of DMs are generous when it comes to familiars. Others murder them with zeal. But in reality, you dont have to try that hard: just a little knowledge about tactical movement and Attacks of Opportunity.
SpoonyBard 04-30-07, 02:55 PM	Okay, I think this arguement's gonna go on too long if I keep making my points... The point is all problems have solutions and touch spells+combat familiar =pwn. I've used enough familiars that I rarely have to worry about it. I also tend to get my familiars' AC higher than my own. But I WOULD like to say that if an int 2 can build a nest, an int 13 bird should be capable of making a basket.
StevenO 04-30-07, 07:18 PM	A Raven can't weave a basket? I think someone needs to go out a find a few bird nests. Many birds would make an even better basket (what do you think a nest is?) and here we are just taking about "ordinary" creatures as opposed to the magical beast that a familiar is. Familiars are just plain old boring little creatures who happen to share a bond that enables them to do amazing things. Although some of their special abilities are based on Wiz/Sor level most of a familiar's stats are based on the masters entire character. Just look at these basic stats for a third level wizard's familiar: HP 332, HD*41, BAB +39, ... did I mention the "wizard" happens to be an 1,100 year old Gold Dragon with a CR of 26? Perhaps that familiar "sucks" compared to what the PCs can do at that level but if it were a Druid 3 instead I don't think anyone would even notice the animal companion running around.
Fireclave 05-01-07, 12:39 AM	Is it possible 2 slap a template on a familiar? Or would that be a DM-call? Getting a familiar with a template usually would require you to take the Improved Familiar feat. The DMG version of the Improved Familiar feat can grant you, among other options, a celestrial or fiendish version of a standard familiar. There's also some spells on the main site that could grant your familiar a template, along with the prestige class option offered in my sig.
BW0222 05-01-07, 11:39 AM	SpoonyBard, Puca 's comments are good, but I'll add mine also. -It says familiars can't use certain skills. It doesn't specify which ones. Surely you would concede that a Raven familiar could use Craft (basketweaving?). No. Get real, it doesn't have hands. It can't use tools, it can't lift any loads, bend materials, carve, dip them in water, use lacker, etc. Could it make a DC 0 bird's nest... sure. (Anyone could, untrained take 10.) However, making a real basket? At the very least, your familiar could provide you with a +2 aid another by helping you with materials. Maybe. Even that it a stretch. I can get an untrained person to fill a tub of water, cut lengths using a knife, to the the store and buy the materials, paint sticks with lacker, etc. Honestly, a snake or raven's use is pretty limited. If a familiar can pick up a wand in its teeth or put a scroll on the ground in front of it, it can try to use it. Other than the DMG rules for using wands do not allow this. It required it to be held in a hand. Otherwise, you'd have players trying to use wands in their mouths will TWF. Sorry... wishful thinking. Most can't speak, so command word items are out. Most can't wear items, so those are out. Weapons are out. Thrown items are out. And as per rules of the game, normal familiars can not read, so scrolls are out. Most would have a hard time carrying such items. And most animals have a low charisma, so I don't think UMD is a terribly appearing option. Alternatively: improved familiar for a Mephit. It can now do everything. Sure. Two feats and the mephit has 1/2 your (already low hit point total) and becomes a legitimate target during combat. It essentially removes the things which most familiars can to easily - guard, scout, spy, etc. 1-Reach can be improved on of a multitude of ways, and Combat Familiar is just plain convinient. There are few ways to increase the reach of a familiar. And all these would require additional buffs. For all the time, effort, and resources placed into getting your familiar to deliver one touch spell in a combat you could have buffed your fighter or rogue and just send them in. 2-I'm not sure what APL means, but touch spells tend to be stronger than ranged spells at the same level. Compare Ghoul Touch with other spells of its level. APL is "average party level". It is a reference to the CR/APL/ECL system used in D&D to select appropriate combat encounters for a party. Ghoul touch is a 2nd-level wizard spell. You could need to be a 3rd-level caster. Under the APL system, that means that you should be facing a single CR 3 creature (say an ogre), three CR 2 creatures (say three bugbears), or many CR 1 creatures (say five wolves). Even as powerful as ghoul touch is... assuming you had a humaniod encounter... say three bugbears, it won't come close to ending the encounter by itself. Which means the familiar is toast. At 3rd-level, you might have 15hp. Your familiar has 7. Any hit from the bugbear is likely fatal half the time. It is highly unlikely that the familiar will get in, that all will be withing 10' and that all will fail their saving throws, and get out. You'd have to get within say 30', gain surprise, partial charge, actually hit, everyone fails their save, win initiative (against everyone) or hope several AoO and normal attacks miss, and get out. If any of these fail... you die. Honestly, just by the number of rolls you must win... makes this a suicidal tactic. At 5th-level, except to send your familiar against several ogres. At 7th-level, a pair of trolls. At 9th-level, a pair of hill giants. etc. Honestly, in a 'fair' fight (using the CR/APL system) a familiar's chance of surviving is extremely low. Even lone PCs -- say an advanced rogue -- has little chance of holding out even a single round against properly scaled encounters. 3-You seem to be assuming that the familiar is making itself the biggest target, or that you're sending your familiar blindly in first. You still don't send your familiar in before the tank, just like a Wizard wouldn't go in before the tank. AoOs are usually free. No point in not taking one given the chance. In combat, delivering touch spells is even harder. You don't have time to buff your familiar, opponents are not flatfooted so that always get their AoOs, your familiar has to navigate the battle field, out in the open it is exposed to AoE spells, etc. Be realistic. There are few creatures of appropriate APLs which can not drop a familiar in one hit. There are few AoE spells which the familiar would ever survive if it fails its saving throw. There are several which have no saving through. Wizards are weak enough in melee and require insane buffing to survive even a few rounds. On the familiar we are talking 3hp at 1st, 12hp at 5th, 20hp at 10th, etc. Honestly, you can't find appropriate monsters at those APL which can't outright kill or drop a familiar with one hit. 4-Once again, this is assuming the familiar is the only threat in the area. They're used as part of a team. Again, AoOs are free. Getting a familiar in an AoE spell is free. Look, animal companions and paladin mounts are weak enough and can get dropped easily without care. 5- Have you never heard the phrase "As the Crow flies?" A familiar's going to be moving in a straight line, easily getting to a foe. Also, Wings of Swift Flying, at higher levels, is just plain useful. Any straight line takes you though a several threatened squares - even on the same target. The advantage to being on foot (or having good manuverability) is that you can move around threatened squares to avoid AoO. With lesser manuverablity, you must either move in a straight line, make partial turns (taking you through specific squares), or stall. i.e. You have a 40' fly speed. You fly 40' (straight line) and attack an orc. Assume he dies. His friends then get up and move towards you. On your turn you must move at least 40' on your next turn along the same path, or start making a 90 turn (moving 1 square forward, 1 on a 45, and 1 sideways), or climb (moving 1 square forward and 1 up), etc. If this flight path takes you through several of his friends threatend squares... tough. You have to move though them or fall to the ground. 6- This is assuming that your touch range spell didn't defeat the foe (and a touch range spell SHOULD), assuming it's not taking it's AoO on something else, and assuming the familiar feels the need to leave its square. Of course, you could drop one of many low level spells to getyour familiar out of there. There is no single touch spell which can defeat an appropriate APL encounter. You will either be facing a single opponent whose CR of about your APL, or multiple creatures of lower CRs. There is no 2rd-level touch spell which can take out a CR 3 dire wolf. There is no 3rd-level touch spell which can take out a CR 6 troll. There is no 4th-level touch spell which can take out a CR 8 hill giant. At best, it might come down to a saving throw. Hardly a good risk. And few touch spells are ever going to take out multiple opponents. 7- You don't need to fly FAR to avoid being charged, you just need to fly UP. Assuming outdoors. Again, most creatures threaten 5'. If you are in the square with them, you need to pass through two threatened squares. Just leaving always provokes. If he has fiends, they threaten up to the 10' mark, and (since you need to fly in a straight line) you may easily have no choice but to fly through their threatened squares. And anyone with a rock, arrow, or spell can just blast the familiar up there. 8- Which is why you don't let the familiar die. Then don't send your familiar out to deliver touch spells. Honestly, the chance of the familiar surviving if your DM is following the rules is so low that it is not worth it. I don't know what parties you've been in, but I've used lots of familiars, used them intelligently to deliver touch spells, and never once lost a familiar. I don't know what tactics you use, but mine work fine. Well, if you aren't familiar with what APL is, know that familiars have to enter squares (provoking AoOs) to deliver touch spells, provoke when leaving such squares, or aren't familiar (no pun intented) with manuverablity rules... then I'm highly skeptical about that claim. Following the rules, a familiar is toast baring severe buffing. Also: One Round, Familiar gets a charge for combust. Next, cast Combust and Both go in together. And the creature takes it's AoO and kills the familiar outright. Exactly what creature can't kill a familiar at it's CR in one hit? Yes, the Tressym learned that most cats are stupid. However, with a gather information check of over thirty, he managed to find *gasp* A CAT FAMILIAR! Heck, having him find another Tressym wouldn't have been much of a stretch. I'm sure one things cats know is territory, and if he's looking for the territory of a winged cat, or a magic cat, he shouldn't have too much trouble in a town large enough to have them. Ok... let's look at the guidelines for population centers. A city of tens of thousands will have say one 10th-level wizard, two 5th-level wizards, and some lesser wizards. Say one in ten might have a cat as a familiar. So... that means in only one outof three cities that size you might find one cat familiar which is able to speak to your familiar. And at that point, it isn't gather information, it is roleplaying finding an talking with a specific NPC (the only other talking cat familiar in the city). Look, it isn't that a familiar couldn't find out something. It is just that what it might be able to find out is pretty limited. It honestly, doesn't have too many things to talk to.
LonePaladin 05-01-07, 12:05 PM	One quick thing I'd like to point out for those worried about familiars provoking attacks of opportunity. Have said familiar receive a touch spell to deliver, then wait. Ready an action for the first time an enemy moves to an adjacent space; once that happens, the familiar takes a 5-foot step and attacks. In my game, the wizard's pseudodragon familiar has taken down enemies with this tactic. It helps that he delivers the spell with a stinger attack, forcing a Fort save to avoid falling asleep.
Puca 05-01-07, 01:14 PM	You are correct that using a five-foot step a creature with no reach can make an attack without provoking an AoO. But: This is still not a viable tactic for many flying familiars. Psuedodragons have good maneuverability, so they could hover 5' away, then use the five-foot step and make an attack. (They are still hovering next to their opponent in the round before attacking. Maybe not good.) A raven though, with average maneuverability, would fall to the ground. (It could walk. It has a land-speed of 10'.) Even familiars that can do this still face problems moving out of their opponents square in the very likely event they dont neutralize them right away. I know from my experience that some DMs are exceptionally generous to familiars. They just dont attack them as well as they could. But, following the rules, they can pretty much kill them at will. And, as soon as your familiar starts being effective in combat, it becomes a legitimate target in combat. The laws of probability mean it is going to then, eventually, get hit. Few familiars can survive even one hit. Now, I make no promises regarding the legitimacy of this tactic: There is a spell in SC called Blood Wind. It gives creatures with natural attacks the ability to use them at range. You can deliver a touch-spell with a natural attack. (It is made at the normal AC, and if it misses, you are still holding the charge.) Now, since familiars have natural attacks, they must be able to deliver touch-spells with them. So, you could argue that by means of the Blood Wind spell, your familiar could against the full AC deliver a touch spell at range.
Khatoblepas 05-01-07, 02:32 PM	This is why you take Improved Familiar (Eyeball). These wonderful things from the Monsters of Faerun are tiny beholders that cast touch spells as rays. =) They're also Diminuative, so not very easy targets. And they're so cute ^^. I'd outfit mine in a tiny little chain shirt and stuff that increases their attack bonus. Ooh! And they can carry small objects with their mage hand ability. Have someone disarm the enemy's weapon or a wand and get your beholder buddy to raise it 15ft in the air and then over to you, too high for someone to reach it. Of course, useless for Greatsword wielders, but still. Fun.
Thane26425 05-01-07, 03:58 PM	Flying familiars do make great scouts. Most creatures don't think twice about the bird flying along 300 feet up, or one flitting through the trees, so long as it doesn't dit there watching them for too long. Ground based familiars can also be used as scouts to an extent. I've usually used mine to help watch the rear of the party during a fight or to prowl around the perimeter of a village or town the party is checking out. Eventually, the familiar can speak to others of its own kind. That can be very useful. Send out your raven familiar to chat with the local avian population and find out what the orcs have been up to. Send the cat or dog familiar to chat up the locals in town too. It is possible for familiars to use magic items. I see no reason why, if a mage can make a certain item, like wands, that he couldn't create one to be activated by a call his familiar could make and even modify it so they could wield it. There is an item called something like the Glove of Activation, which is like a Glove of Storing, but items like scroll and wands can be stored in it and activated as if actually being held in the hand. Expensive, but something like that could work. Give your Raven a specially made wand of fireballs in a Glove of Activation, combined with a Greter Invisibility spell, and you've got a stealth bomber. Now, there is a third party book on familiars that has a ritual that allows a mage to give his familiar levels in character classes. It costs gold and a LOT of XP, but is an interesting concept.
Keaerin 05-01-07, 11:27 PM	If you want a really badass familiar theres a few things that work. Combat familiar as noted above is a good one as is the feat that you and your familiar are considered in contact up to a range of 30 feet. (I forget the name). Lurking familiar lets a familiar hide in your square for surprise attacks. There are a couple lower lvl spells in the spell compendium that give good combat buffs to you critter including DR/magic and have good durations. The bite of the were*** spells also add good combat buffs although are very short lived (but see Imbue familiar below) But the real power of a familiar is (and IMO the best spell in spell compendium) is the 6th lvl spell Imbue familiar with spell ability. This spell is simply godlike. If you want a real combat monster pet and don't mind multiclassing go druid/wizard (or sorcerer)/ arcane heirophant from races of the wild. This class combines your familiar and your animal companion into one beasty getting the best of both worlds and best of all if it dies no exp loss. Feats to look at for this true pet character are Natural Bond, Spell Bonded Compaion (from the dragon mag comp), Obtain Familiar with Praticed Spellcaster, Imbue Familiar (the feat version), Extend Spell, and Familar Concentration, as well as those listed above. If going outside wizards material invest in "Familiars" by trolllords hard book to find and make sure you swing it by your GM as some of the stuff in there is way powerful.
Schmendrick 05-02-07, 01:25 PM	I'm not aware of any WotC-approved way to grant your familiar feats, so... I may as well shamlessly plug my "Master of the Familiar" class. It and Fireclave's "Familiarist" have a good few points in common (including familiar feats), though mine focuses more on improving the familiar in less overt ways (no added templates). I'm also inclined to label his with the "a bit overpowered" list, but, then, I'm a stodgy Core-only type DM who is paranoid of power creep. :rant: :) We both have links in our sigs.