Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Johnny_Angel 06-16-07, 08:10 PM	I'm sure this question has been asked before; unfortunately I'm not one of the lucky people to recieve the search function. In the familiar sidebar in the PHB, it says that "for all effects related to HD use the familiar's HD as indicated for a typical creature of its type or the master's character level, whichever is higher." Now, I assume that this means "effects" as in whether or not certain spells would effect your familiar - for example, sleep can only effect 4HD. However, I'm not sure if feat acquisition and ability point acquisition are considered "effects related to HD." Example: Hoshaaa The Diabli Wizard has a familiar - Toadie The Toad. Over time Hoshaaa gains enough experience to become a level 3 Wizard; Hoshaaa gets to choose a feat for reaching his 3rd level (3rd hd.) Now, my question here is whether or not Toadie The Toad gets to select a feat; does the familiar also gain a feat? After a little bit more time Hoshaaa gains his 4th level; as a result he gets a point to place on his abilities; as a wizard he increases his INT by 1. Again, the question here is whether Toadie gains an ability point; so, does Toadie The Toad get an ability point? With animal companions it's a little more straight forward because the companion actually is the one gaining HD; with the familiar it's a little confusing because the familiar doesn't actually gain any HD, but is supposed to be treated as having the HD amount that the familiar's master has for "effects related to HD." Is the acquisition of feats and ability points an effect related to hit dice?
E_Morrow 06-16-07, 08:27 PM	This question has come up before but since it doesn’t do so as often as some of the more stupid ones seem to, it is refreshing to hear it asked none the less. The answer is no, those things are not considered “related to hit dice” and gained by a caster’s familiar. Your initial assumption is correct. Unlike special mounts, animal companions, cohorts, or other fun tag along class features which gain actual hit dice and all of the benefits that come with them, your familiar is and always will be much squishier and less capable because it does not.
Johnny_Angel 06-16-07, 09:11 PM	That's what I thought, and that's the decision I was leaning toward, but it's a little unclear. It would be a lot easier to understand if there was a sample familiar in the familiar sidebar; furthermore, I think they should have included a sample mount, familiar, animal companion; whatever in all of the sections talking about such things. I suppose it does make sense though when you think about the class that the animal belongs to. Familiars are squishy and more intelligent(mental stat boosts) - much like casters; companions are tougher and more physical, but less intelligent in most cases - much like the more physical classes.
risner 06-16-07, 09:42 PM	However, I'm not sure if feat acquisition and ability point acquisition are considered "effects related to HD." Is the acquisition of feats and ability points an effect related to hit dice? No, the familiar does not gain HD based benefits using the Wizard's HD. The acquisition of feats/ability points is based on the HD of the familiar. The purpose of that ability is to allow your familiar to not instantly die from Holy Word for example.
StevenO 06-16-07, 09:44 PM	One thing to keep in mind about familiars is they get many of their features based on their master's entire character instead of just the Wiz/Sor levels. Yes, the special abilities listed in the familiar sidebar depend on class levels with a familiar but its effective HD, hp, BAB, skill, and such are based on the entire character.
glacialcat 06-16-07, 09:52 PM	Familiars don't gain feats this way because they are only treated as having those hit dice "for the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice," so they don't actually gain any more hit dice. Interestingly enough, a psion's psicrystal will gain feats as the psion levels. This is because the psicrystal's hit dice is "As master's HD." So the psicrystal actually gains HD, and will gain feats at the same rate any other construct gains feats. Most constructs don't gain feats because they have no INT score, but psicrystals do. So... because of the way they're written, a familiar won't gain feats. A psicrystal will.
Kouk 06-16-07, 10:27 PM	If familiars had their own HD, they would probably have more HP than their masters!;)
Johnny_Angel 06-16-07, 10:38 PM	Thanks for all of the answers. Like I said, I was leaning toward ruling that way anyway. The lack of an example in the PHB makes it a little unclear though. Maybe the clamor about having a Complete Companion book on the new release thread is more deserved than I originally had thought. One other question I have though is... In the PHB it lists the benefits of having the various familiars (i.e. bonuses to certain skills, 3 more hit points, and etc.) What benefits do you recieve from other familiars on other lists? The introduction of other books have introduced alternate familiar possibilities. No benefit? The same benefit of a similar animal? Something else?
risner 06-17-07, 11:29 AM	No benefit? The same benefit of a similar animal? Something else? DM's call. I'd go with the same benefit of a similar animal on the familiar chart in the PHB.
Johnny_Angel 06-17-07, 05:02 PM	Alright, thanks again. Sorry for so many questions, but it's a subject that doesn't tend to see a lot of answers, so I'm trying to think of anything else that confuses me. Oh, the last question I have (for now) deals with animal companions. Animal companions do gain feats and ability points because they actually do gain HD. Now, my question here is whether an animal companion could add one of their points to INT to get an INT greater than 2. I know that animals can't have more than 2 INT, so I would be inclined to say that you could add a point to INT, but not raise INT above 2. (therefore allowing the companion to learn more tricks, but not allow them to break the rules of animals having INT of 2) The other possibility would be that you could raise an animal companions INT above 2, but they would then change type and become magical beasts instead of animals. I am leaning toward the first one, but I could see the second one being a viable argument.
Kouk 06-17-07, 05:34 PM	Companions do gain feats and skills, but they do not gain ability points. Everything they gain is explicitly spelled out in the Animal Companion sidebar. A companion gains "bonus" HD, not real HD. It only has these HD because of association with the Druid. Companions also do not get any bigger from more HD. If you would like to house rule that instead of the "free" ability boosts normally granted, an animal could assign 1 ability point every 4 levels I guess I could see that working. Otherwise it is just too many ability score increases.
Nephlite 06-17-07, 05:39 PM	Alright, thanks again. Sorry for so many questions, but it's a subject that doesn't tend to see a lot of answers, so I'm trying to think of anything else that confuses me. Oh, the last question I have (for now) deals with animal companions. Animal companions do gain feats and ability points because they actually do gain HD. Now, my question here is whether an animal companion could add one of their points to INT to get an INT greater than 2. I know that animals can't have more than 2 INT, so I would be inclined to say that you could add a point to INT, but not raise INT above 2. (therefore allowing the companion to learn more tricks, but not allow them to break the rules of animals having INT of 2) The other possibility would be that you could raise an animal companions INT above 2, but they would then change type and become magical beasts instead of animals. I am leaning toward the first one, but I could see the second one being a viable argument. But you can't have a magical beast as a animal companion thus raising Int past 2 would nullify being an Animal Companion. So it would make you lose the AC. Best not to deny yourself class features. :D
Johnny_Angel 06-17-07, 05:47 PM	Companions do gain feats and skills, but they do not gain ability points. Everything they gain is explicitly spelled out in the Animal Companion sidebar. A companion gains "bonus" HD, not real HD. It only has these HD because of association with the Druid. Companions also do not get any bigger from more HD. If you would like to house rule that instead of the "free" ability boosts normally granted, an animal could assign 1 ability point every 4 levels I guess I could see that working. Otherwise it is just too many ability score increases. Really? I guess you learn something new every day. I always thought that they did increase in size and get the ability points. The reason I thought that is because it says that you advance as normal for a creature gaining HD as spelled out in the MM.
Kouk 06-17-07, 06:08 PM	"Advancing" in the MM for increasing size just means you are making it bigger. That kind of advancement is so when designing monsters you follow a logical and formulated system to make stronger versions. It is not that the creature is actually "aging" or "growing", you are just creating an above average specimen. The exception is Dragons, who actually gain different special abilities and such for aging, and their size is a function of their age.
risner 06-17-07, 07:24 PM	I see nothing that indicates the Animal Companion doesn't get feats, skill points, and ability points from his extra HD. I do see that the animal companion size does not change (which makes his additional HD more like "class levels" or maybe "happy animal companion" levels?) As for increasing INT, it would seem to be DM call. You could rule it is not possible (and sleep happy) using Awaken as a precedence. Basically, there isn't a rule stating what happens when an Animal (who can't have an Int > 2) gains a point of Int while at Int 2.
Nom 06-17-07, 07:46 PM	I see nothing that indicates the Animal Companion doesn't get feats, skill points, and ability points from his extra HD.Well, it explicitly states that the companion gains feats and skills "as normal", so I'm not surprised you see nothing stating that it doesn't. The 1 per 4 ability increase is not listed as a benefit to the animal companion of gaining HD. The animal companion is explicitly described as gaining HD which grant hp, BAB, BSB, feats, and skills, plus the special abilities listed in the table. Considering that the table explicitly includes ability increases, it seems odd that they would expect you to keep the usual increase but not spell it out like everything else.
Johnny_Angel 06-17-07, 08:39 PM	Ok, I think I understand what you're saying. It says "An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's hit dice (see Monster Manual.)" I can understand what you're saying because it does specifically spell those things out. However, I think in this case that it would have made things a lot clearer if the entry would specifically state that ability points and size increases were not granted by the bonus HD. I suppose I have to admit to doing it wrong if this is the case because I've always thought that the animal did increase in size and did get ability points. I understand -from closer inspection of the entry- why they wouldn't, but I still feel that it's something that should be spelled out a little better. As far as the INT question -if animal companions do gain ability points- I had been ruling that you could add the point to anything as long as you didn't increase their INT above 2. To bring everything together though, I suppose it would make sense that you don't get the ability points because then that would eliminate the problem of people adding the points to INT. To be honest though, it would still make me feel a lot better if there was a clearer ruling in the PHB. I know that the SRD is sometimes used to clear up issues, but -to be quite blunt- I don't agree with the SRD on a lot of things, so I'd prefer an actual rule book to clear up some issues concerning familiars and companions or -at the very least- some errata concerning the PHB.
Nom 06-17-07, 10:06 PM	However, I think in this case that it would have made things a lot clearer if the entry would specifically state that ability points and size increases were not granted by the bonus HD.Ability points, certainly. Size increases are a specific application of a special case rule in the MM, although in practice it causes enough confusion that perhaps a note is in order. The trouble about notes is that they can in and of themselves cause confusion: "These extra HD do not cause the creature to advance in size" seems like a bizarre non-sequiter if you aren't thinking about the MM "advanced monsters" rules. I know that the SRD is sometimes used to clear up issues, but -to be quite blunt- I don't agree with the SRD on a lot of things, so I'd prefer an actual rule book to clear up some issues concerning familiars and companions or -at the very least- some errata concerning the PHB.That's a somewhat incoherent viewpoint. The SRD is a substantially complete extract of the three core rulebooks, plus Unearthed Arcana and the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Certain rules are omitted (notably anything to do with character creation or XP), most commentary and gameplay advice are removed, as are most examples and diagrams and copyrighted or trademarked names and material. Aside from some minor grammatical reworking, the rest is identical to the core rules. Sometimes the extra examples or commentary in the Player's Handbook make the rules clearer, but by and large the SRD is "the rules" (and just the rules and nothing but the rules).
Johnny_Angel 06-17-07, 10:31 PM	The only problem I have with the SRD is that sometimes it completely contradicts what one of the core books says. Overall it is a good resource, but there are times when it does actually completely contradict what one of the core rulebooks states. I'm not talking about clearing up vague text; I'm actually talking about saying things which are completely opposite of what some of the core books say. In those cases I tend to side with the core books. That's a discussion for a different thread though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do understand that notes can sometimes cause more confusion, but I don't think it would have caused confusion if the animal companion entry had stated something along the lines of "unlike normal advancement as detailed in the monster manual, the additional hit dice granted to the druid's companion do not grant the benefits of addition ability points nor do they cause change in size."
Fireclave 06-17-07, 10:55 PM	The only problem I have with the SRD is that sometimes it completely contradicts what one of the core books says. Overall it is a good resource, but there are times when it does actually completely contradict what one of the core rulebooks states. I'm not talking about clearing up vague text; I'm actually talking about saying things which are completely opposite of what some of the core books say. You do realize that the SRD also incorporates rules errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a) as well? That's probably the cause of the discrepancies you are seeing.
Vrellum 06-17-07, 11:01 PM	The only problem I have with the SRD is that sometimes it completely contradicts what one of the core books says. Overall it is a good resource, but there are times when it does actually completely contradict what one of the core rulebooks states. I'm not talking about clearing up vague text; I'm actually talking about saying things which are completely opposite of what some of the core books say. In those cases I tend to side with the core books. That's a discussion for a different thread though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do understand that notes can sometimes cause more confusion, but I don't think it would have caused confusion if the animal companion entry had stated something along the lines of "unlike normal advancement as detailed in the monster manual, the additional hit dice granted to the druid's companion do not grant the benefits of addition ability points nor do they cause change in size." I'm just curious. Could you give a couple of examples. I was always under the impression that the SRD was pretty good.
Johnny_Angel 06-17-07, 11:04 PM	Right, but, like I said, errata and totally contradicting a statement made by a core rule book -for no apparent reason- are two different things. One example is that the SRD claims you can have multiple elemental enchantments active on a weapon by using the same command word for all of them. However, the DM guide states that you can't activate muliple effects with the same command word, and it also states that the enchantments are activated by a command word and stay active until given another command. There are also places in the SRD which imply that you can't add the half-dragon template to a dragon or use the template more than once on the same creature. Like I said though, that's a whole different issue. Some people are fine with following the SRD by the letter. I usually follow the SRD, but there definately are things that the SRD states which I don't agree with. That's a discussion for a different thread though. My purpose for this thread was to handle questions about familiars and animal companions. I'd prefer to keep on topic if possible because I feel that the subject of companions and familiars is a subject that has the potential to be somewhat confusing - both to me and to many other players.
DM-Scott 06-17-07, 11:44 PM	Hmmm. I have to admit that the extra HD have been treated as the animal's HD in every sense in my game. Perhaps we are doing something wrong... The way we did it was by increasing the animal companion's actual HD, since it gives the stats for the "animal" HD in the entry, and doesn't name it anything other than "hit dice", or say it doesn't do anything else. Also because the MM entries have size increasements under their "advancement", we saw no reason why their size shouldn't increase when their HD reached those points. Hmmm, if this isn't how it's supposed to work then perhaps we've been in error for a good while now.
Nom 06-18-07, 01:57 AM	Also because the MM entries have size increasements under their "advancement", we saw no reason why their size shouldn't increase when their HD reached those points.But if that were true, the HD would also cap out whenever the MM hit die cap out. Thus, an animal companion wolf would cap out when it reached 6 HD in the 3-5 bracket. Since that's obviously not the case, why expect the advanced animal rules to be used for anything else? One example is that the SRD claims you can have multiple elemental enchantments active on a weapon by using the same command word for all of them. However, the DM guide states that you can't activate muliple effects with the same command word, and it also states that the enchantments are activated by a command word and stay active until given another command.Are you sure you're not talking about the FAQ vs the DMG or SRD? And I flicked through DMG chapter 7, and couldn't find an explicit rule that you can't trigger multiple effects with a single word; could you provide an exact quote and page reference? There are also places in the SRD which imply that you can't add the half-dragon template to a dragon or use the template more than once on the same creature.Technically, the MM rules for half-dragon say any corporeal, living creature, which would include a dragon. The SRD has the same text. Of course, whether any sensible DM would take a template that is used to take a "something" and represent a cross-breed "dragon/something" and apply this to a dragon is a different discussion. "Hey, look, I took a dragon and cross-bred it with a dragon to produce a half-dragon dragon!".
Kouk 06-18-07, 02:11 AM	Here is an excerpt from the FAQ When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large? An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds. And then they reiterate for some reason: When a druid reaches the equivalent of 3rd level, does his wolf animal companion grow to Large size (with all of the benefits and penalties associated with size increase)? Does the wolf continue to gain bonus Hit Dice, even though a wolf’s advancement normally maxes out at 6 Hit Dice? Finally, does a wolf automatically become Large if your druid of 3rd or higher level acquires it as an animal companion, granting it bonus Hit Dice? The animal companion rules—or, for that matter, pretty much any other effect that grants a creature bonus Hit Dice— don’t use the monster improvement rules presented in Chapter 4 of the Monster Manual. The rules in Monster Manual are for creating tougher versions of existing monsters, not for increasing the statistics of creatures who gain Hit Dice. An animal’s normal advancement line has absolutely nothing to do with the benefits it gains from being an animal companion, and vice versa. A wolf animal companion doesn’t become size Large when its Hit Dice increases to 4, nor is it limited to the “normal” Hit Dice cap for wolves. I asked Customer Service specifically about advancing animal companions and Paladin mounts, and while they (CustServ) appear to just be other guys who interpret the rules, they said Paladin Mounts, druid/ranger animal companions, and normal animals do get feats and skill points based on the HD they have. Paladin mounts and druid/ranger animal companions do not get any more ability score bumps for every 4 HD they advance because that is already covered by the physical ability score bumps they get at frequent intervals.
Kouk 06-18-07, 02:17 AM	For the record: Yes, many aspects of the PHB are confusing.
Johnny_Angel 06-18-07, 03:34 AM	Nom, to be honest, I can't remember where I read it. I'll look through my books and see if I can find it again; then I'll post what I'm refering to. []But if that were true, the HD would also cap out whenever the MM hit die cap out. Thus, an animal companion wolf would cap out when it reached 6 HD in the 3-5 bracket. Since that's obviously not the case, why expect the advanced animal rules to be used for anything else?[] I suppose the way I looked at it when I was advancing the size of companions was that they could still gain HD beyond what was listed, but that the growth topped out at the listed HD value for the different sizes. I see the reasoning for why ability scores aren't accumulated and (although to a much lesser extent) why the companion doesn't grow; I'm just trying to explain what lead to my confusion and why I viewed it the way I did before.
Kouk 06-18-07, 03:43 AM	I see the reasoning for why ability scores aren't accumulated and (although to a much lesser extent) why the companion doesn't grow; I'm just trying to explain what lead to my confusion and why I viewed it the way I did before. You don't have to explain. I did it wrong for awhile too, but then I noticed that the wolf companion was much stronger then the party's Fighter :D. (Low level game)