Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gwiber 03-05-07, 01:36 AM	I have a 7th level Scout in my game, tonight was the first time he has been played. I was a little blown away when this player; ran 10 feet up to an enemy character, and not only skirmish attacked the guy, but then proceeded to run off. He has the scout sneak attack ability combined with the spring attack feat. My knee-jerk reaction was to say that I didn't think he could combine the Spring Attack with that Sneak attack. I wanted to say that the spring attack was limited to a normal attack, but by the rules it appears this is not true, and I am stuck, since I do as much as I can to stick to the rules when and were I can. Has this guy got me over a barrel here, rules-wise? Bearing in mind I am not prepared to house-rule this... yet.
ibayboy 03-05-07, 01:49 AM	yes this is all within the rules. The Scout skirmish ability is not sneak attack. All he needs to do is move 10ft during the round. If he has actual sneak attack too, the target needs to qualify seperately for those dice, in the usual ways. He will provoke AoO,s from anyone other than the target if he 'springs' through their threatened area. You can win initiative and ready an attack when he gets in range, maybe trip or grapple him. Good luck
Novacat 03-05-07, 02:26 AM	What he's doing is entirely legal, and indeed, any Scout worth his trail rations should get Spring Attack if he can. It's not overpowered. In fact, I consider the Scout to be somewhat underpowered compared to the Rogue.
gwiber 03-05-07, 09:35 AM	The rules as they stand do indeed support his actions., But I am curious about one response. The idea that the Scout is underpowered versus a Rogue. Under-"powered" in what terms. We are talking combat here. I don;t consider the ability to deal with trips "powered", so much as a side ability that has little to do with strength. IF this guy were a Rogue he would be able to Evade for no damage possibly incoming AoE spells, and a sneak attack damage of +4D6, and then only if he can catch the target flat-footed or flank it. He ha a BAB +5 at this point (all above excludes other external factors.) The Scout at the same level. ALSO has the ability to totally avoid AoE spell dmg as a possibility., moves at a 10 ft faster rate, can't be restrained in combat, has a +2 bonus to his AC, and only deals +2D6 less damage, and lest we forget. he doesn't have the restriction of having to catch his target flat-footed or in a flanking maneuver to get off his extra +2D6 dmg. A Scout has a BAB of +5 at this point.(all above excludes other external factors.) Adding to either class the same Feat set, and the Skirmisher certainly seems to come off the better in terms of combat ability. And certainly has more "power" in those terms. A lot more apparent flexibility too. Both classes even get the same skill point set. About the only thing I see a Rogue having truly on the Souct is sneak attack damage in the long run. and the rogue is still susceptible to being seen. not catching his or her target flat-footed. not being able to catch his target flanked, or even natural varying class abilities and feats to avoid being flanked altogether (Eyes in the back of your head feat for example). Even a rogues Special Abilities don't appear until level 10. Strictly speaking. stack a similar statted rogue in a direct fight with a similar statted Scout, and the scout is going to eat the Rogue alive. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I've always assumed skirmishes to be small, highly mobile little combats where the enemy meets, quickly has a small and determined little fight, and breaks off, either to go get more help, or because one side or the other is now dead or crippled. I'm inclined to say that the skirmish ability only works within a given number of people based on force size and mobility. Say linking the Scouts INT bonus and Dex bonus to determine the max number of people involved in the conflict, and linking his skirmish ability not just to his 10 foot move, but to his target. Meaning he can;t dance around ONE target and continually get the attack, he has to move to a different target, while moving at least 10 feet, to get the attack off each time. Nothing prevents him from bouncing between two targets, but he must remain "on the move" so to speak, to continually use his power. I'd be more lax on this for targets that eat up say... more than a 10' space area. Does that sound unreasonably restrictive to you? The second part anyway.
Silverthumb128 03-05-07, 09:49 AM	Strictly speaking. stack a similar statted rogue in a direct fight with a similar statted Scout, and the scout is going to eat the Rogue alive. I consider them to be at about equal footing, as far as abilities go. They both are fairly skill-oriented, both of them getting a lot out of Spot & Listen, and Hide & Move Silently. Rogue's strength lies in getting through the enemy's defenses and making a few powerful hits at close range. Scout basically plays the same game, but focuses more on mobility than sneaking. Scout's got higher HD, but Rogue does more damage. However, as noted below, the Rogue gets to make his Sneak Attack multiple times in one round, as opposed to Scout, who can only make one Skirmish strike each round. I'm inclined to say that the skirmish ability only works within a given number of people based on force size and mobility. Say linking the Scouts INT bonus and Dex bonus to determine the max number of people involved in the conflict, and linking his skirmish ability not just to his 10 foot move, but to his target. Meaning he can;t dance around ONE target and continually get the attack, he has to move to a different target, while moving at least 10 feet, to get the attack off each time. Nothing prevents him from bouncing between two targets, but he must remain "on the move" so to speak, to continually use his power. I'd be more lax on this for targets that eat up say... more than a 10' space area. Does that sound unreasonably restrictive to you? The second part anyway. I don't understand the logic of that restriction. You're saying that the Scout, rather than focusing on one target, should have to attack multiple enemies? Scout already has a hard enough time since Spring Attack still only allows the Scout to make one attack per round, due to the Standard+Move action rules. Plus, the opponent being danced around can just as easily hold actions. A melee character holding his attack until the Scout comes within melee range will ruin the Scout very easily and quickly, so its not like the Scout's all that powerful to begin with.
Puca 03-05-07, 10:04 AM	I'm inclined to say that the skirmish ability only works within a given number of people based on force size and mobility. Say linking the Scouts INT bonus and Dex bonus to determine the max number of people involved in the conflict, and linking his skirmish ability not just to his 10 foot move, but to his target. Meaning he can;t dance around ONE target and continually get the attack, he has to move to a different target, while moving at least 10 feet, to get the attack off each time. This seems like a gigantic pain-in-the-ass mechanic to nerf something that just isnt that powerful. When Novacat said the scout was slightly underpowered compared to the rogue, I tend to agree. They both get precision damage, but the nature of the scouts limits him to one precision-based attack per round. The rogue has to flank or take away an opponents dex, but one with say Greater Invisibility, which characters should have access to at your level, your rogue can get as many sneak attacks as he has attacks. Regardless, your player made the most logical use of his class ability, and I really doubt that it is going to break anything. I dont think your change serves any real purpose and is only going to irritate your players.
FrostHammer 03-05-07, 02:10 PM	nerf this, and your player might as well just create a new a character. Stop nerfing non-magic classes.
karthos 03-05-07, 02:21 PM	I agree with Frosthammer, why nerf this? Your 7th level sorcerer can throw out 8d6 scorching rays every round practically all day long, using touch attacks, and never having to get into melee. Your scout pales in comparison to this extremely tame example.
jameswilliamogle 03-05-07, 03:39 PM	Scout isn't overpowered by combining Spring Attack + Skirmish. Its what he should be doing. Scout isn't > Rogue at that level. They're very, very close, but the Rogue should be pulling ahead for one reason: Use Magic Device. Not only can the Sorcerer do his Scorching Ray spell for 8d6 in a level, but the Rogue can be doing the same thing, albeit with one ray (4d6 ray + 4d6 Sneak Attack). Granted, it costs money, but UMD on a Rogue makes them much more viable, imo, than a Scout from mid to higher levels. Scout > Rogue at the lowest levels, no doubt, and I'd say stays slightly better up to about 5th or so.
Novacat 03-05-07, 04:36 PM	Any combat-oriented rogue worth his skivvies should be using TWF, and when available, ITWF and GTWF. This is how the Rogue beats the Scout in higher levels through sheer martial ability (ignoring completely UMD). At first level, the rogue can get his bonus damage twice. Once the scout is able to use Manyshot and get his bonus damage twice, the rogue is able to out-perform him still by attacking 4 times. For bonus-damage-based combat styles like the Ranger, Rogue and Scout, number of attacks is key to combat effectiveness. As for needing to qualify for Sneak Attack, it's extremely easy to flank enemies, especially with feats like Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker in the PHB2 that make it even easier to flank. Don't get me wrong... I see where the Scout exceeds the Rogue, and I would say that overall, they are two classes that are well balanced with each other. My earlier statement about the Rogue being somewhat more powerful than the Scout is regarding raw combat ability, namely the Rogue's ability to put out about twice as much damage per round as the Scout. I understand that the Scout is a natural tracker, has faster movement, and typically has better AC, but in the long run, the Rogue outclasses any other martial class in raw damage output. No, indeed, the Scout should NOT be nerfed. If, as a DM, you are having difficulty with this class, you should definitely reconsider what kinds of challenges you've been using. Try using multiple enemies and group tactics, readied actions, ranged attackers, creatures immune to critical hits... all of these will negated the Scout's advantage. However, a good DM finds ways to challenge the party without rendering the party's abilities null and void. Be creative.
gwiber 03-06-07, 09:19 AM	"Try using multiple enemies and group tactics, readied actions, ranged attackers, creatures immune to critical hits..." I try very hard NOT to just start putting things into the game to counter the various abilities of the players, and only do so when two reasons come up. One, if the enemy they are encountering has had good cause to see or hear about the group before and get wind of it's tactics. Or two, if the enemy in question is one of those people/monsters who has a IQ higher than mie, and could have easily planned for or predicted things I could never have thought of myself. This guy initially decided to learn mobility and spring attacvk, and first... pardon the pun.. sprang it on me in a fight with an Ogre Magi. After they drove the Ogre Magi away the first time. he came back with an Orc with him he had made invisible. And had the Orc stand right next to him. Knowing full well that little "b*st*rd" would try that again. he waited, sure enough the Scout sprung in. and got himself stuck by the Orc as he went by. This all fell to crap, and the reason many group tactics won't work against this group., when the Warmage stepped up, and removed The Ogre Magi's protector with a well placed AoE, before the Fighter got to the Ogre Magi. Which forced me to retreat the Ogre Magi yet again. Short of cheesing out in many encounters and filling my enemies full of Rogues for ranged sneak attack, most ranged encounters haven't taken place in places where superior long range weapons where an issue. Densely packed forest, in a old dead Dragons Cave. The only place so far would have been on a boat, and they were entering specifically Aquatic Elf Territory there, to engage Aquatic elves. As for immunity to Criticals, that's the primary realm of Undead, and half the group threatened to mutiny on me personally due to the rather large number of undead encounters they had up to this point. I didn't pick the undead encounters to foil the rogue, it just sorta happened that way in the campaign. You can see I am sort of in a corner here whern it comes to available tactics. They haven't QUITE reached the super geniuses that they have to fight in my campaign, yet. And most of the other options available to me. Swarming them with enemies of appropriate encounter level, are out of the question as the Warmage will simply wave her hand and remove them. If I throw a group of equal level at them, that sorta undoes the CR system somewhat, and could leave them so bleak, that they are weakened beyond the ability to handle the next encounter in whatever chain of encounters might be coming. (I am unfortunately very unforgiving when it comes to realistic responses to encounters. IF the encounter "has friends" and it's viable. those friends show up in due course, whether the player like it or not. As long as they haven;t taken real precautions). I am simply a little stymied consider the situation on what to do with the combo I have. The Warmage widdles things down to only "named-style" people usually before combat even begins, The Fighter steps up and regularly dishes out enough damage at this level to render an enehy a wrecked pile of dead in one to 3 rounds, and the Scout harries at least one enemy until it dies in similar time. Leaving the more socially-oriented Rogue to regularly fall over at 0 HP, and the Paladin to pick here and there at enemies in a hope to do some real damage. To boot I have a table full of VERY seasoned players, all of ten to 15 years experience EACH, some like myself even longer (I came in two years before 2nd edition). It's just very frustrating to throw something at these people they aren't going to walk all over that won't do the same to them. It seems to flow one way or the other. I knew there was trouble when, with next to NO magic times to speak of, I used a Frost Giant to his full capacity against them. when all 5 characters were level 4 and 5, and they killed it. Legitimately. Boy have I goe off-topic...
runestar 03-06-07, 09:34 AM	Unless your scout has some way of accessing pounce or hustle, he is going to get only 1 attack even at higher lvs. I see nothing wrong with letting him pump up the damage on this one hit as much as possible. The damage is still going to be pathetic, simply because it is ultimately only 1 hit. Compare this to a TWFing rogue, who gets to enjoy sneak attack on each of his multiple attacks. Or a barb power attacking with a 2-handed weapon. I do not see how this is overpowering. Annoying perhaps, since enemies moving to attack the scout typically have to run all over the place, thus forgoing the full-attack option. I suppose you could give foes either the karmic strike and robilar's gambit feat, and have them use the AoO to trip the scout...:confused: And something does not sound right about your game. It also seems too strong. Could there be something wrong with the way you are running your encounters?
Novacat 03-07-07, 01:14 AM	"Try using multiple enemies and group tactics, readied actions, ranged attackers, creatures immune to critical hits..." I try very hard NOT to just start putting things into the game to counter the various abilities of the players, and only do so when two reasons come up. One, if the enemy they are encountering has had good cause to see or hear about the group before and get wind of it's tactics. Or two, if the enemy in question is one of those people/monsters who has a IQ higher than mie, and could have easily planned for or predicted things I could never have thought of myself. If enemy NPCs have to be particularly intelligent to use tactics, then I'm glad I'm not in your game. I've grown tired of the style of play wherein the majority of enemies will use no tactic other than charge/attack. When I run a game, enemies move to flank, use the Aid Another action, use potions (which are then removed from the potential treasure), manipulate the environment, attack with a diverse force (some 2H melee, some TWF melee, some ranged, and some spellcasters). If all else fails, trick the trouble PC. If you are any good of a liar, it's ridiculously easy to convince the PCs of anything just because an NPC they trust said it. Have an NPC that the party trusts be either mistaken, a betrayer, or replaced by an impostor, and use this position of false security to put the PCs into an even worse position (bad info can get you killed as fast as anything). If all else fails, there are always dragons.
jameswilliamogle 03-07-07, 11:52 AM	It seems to me like your party is just playing well together, assuming they don't have uber-scores (which would be a bigger problem than any one character's abilities). If you give the bad guys some group tactics, and add tough terrain to the combat, things will probably get more even on your end.