feat choices for a swordsage [Archive] - Wizards Community

feat choices for a swordsage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deus_Proelii
03-10-07, 01:57 PM This swordsage isn't going TWF but is wielding a bastard sword/katana with both hands.

I know which feats to get initially but I'm not quite sure about higher levels. Here are my choices so far.

1. Dodge, Adaptive Style
3. Power Attack
6. Leap Attack
9. Sudden Recovery
12. Improved Critical (Bastard Sword/Katana)
15. ?
18. ?

What should I take for my last two feat choices?

Since this character will be using a weapon with both hands, I've also chosen maneuvers capitalizing on that.

Stances –
1. Leaping Dragon Stance (TC 3)
2. Pearl of Black Doubt (DM 3)
3. Roots of the Mountain (SD 3)
4. Assassin’s Stance (SH 3)
5. Giant’s Stance (SD 5)
6. Strength of Stone (SD 8)

Strikes –
1. Flashing Sun (DW 2),
2. Emerald Razor (DM 2),
3. Claw at the Moon (TC 2),
4. Bonecrusher (SD 3),
5. Death From Above (TC 4),
6. Pouncing Charge (TC 5),
7. Greater Insightful Strike (DM 6),
8. Crushing Vise (SD 6),
9. Irresistible Mountain Strike (SD 6),
10. Avalanche of Blades (DM 7),
11. Ancient Mountain Hammer (SD 7),
12. Swooping Dragon Strike (TC 7),
13. Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM 8),
14. Adamantine Bones (SD 8),
15. Time Stands Still (DM 9),
16. Feral Death Blow (TC 9)

Counters –
1. Moment of Perfect Mind (DM 1),
2. Counter Charge (SS 1),
3. Action Before Thought (DM 2),
4. Mind Over Body (DM 3),
5. Diamond Defense (DM 8)

Boosts –
1. Sudden Leap (TC 1),
2. Burning Brand (DW 2),
3. Inferno Blade (DW 7),
4. Quicksilver Motion (DM 7)

How is this selection?
crowclub
03-10-07, 03:17 PM 1. Dodge, Adaptive Style

I'm not totally sold on the "swordsages must take Adaptive Style" line of thought.
Firstly, you get plenty of Manoeuvres each encounter.
Secondly, how often are you really going to spend an entire round doing nothing to refresh your manoeuvres?
How many rounds does combat last?
Subtract the number of manoeuvres you have (+1 for re-gaining them) from that total.
How many rounds are left?

To be honest, I think re-gaining one of those manoeuvres without the Feat is going to be fine. Also as you level up there will be times when your best option will be to do a full round attack, which counts out almost all your manoeuvres anyway.
DarkRhystar
03-10-07, 05:11 PM 1. Dodge, Adaptive Style

I'm not totally sold on the "swordsages must take Adaptive Style" line of thought.
Firstly, you get plenty of Manoeuvres each encounter.
Secondly, how often are you really going to spend an entire round doing nothing to refresh your manoeuvres?
How many rounds does combat last?
Subtract the number of manoeuvres you have (+1 for re-gaining them) from that total.
How many rounds are left?

To be honest, I think re-gaining one of those manoeuvres without the Feat is going to be fine. Also as you level up there will be times when your best option will be to do a full round attack, which counts out almost all your manoeuvres anyway.

You do realize that's not the best benefit of Adaptive Style right?

You do realize that it normally takes 5 minutes of meditation to change your readied maneuvers outside of combat and that Adaptive Style can do it in 6 seconds right?
Iarmeister
03-10-07, 05:46 PM You do realize that's not the best benefit of Adaptive Style right?

You do realize that it normally takes 5 minutes of meditation to change your readied maneuvers outside of combat and that Adaptive Style can do it in 6 seconds right?

QFT!

Another thing...I'm not sure Dodge is the best option for a Sword Sage UNLESS you're planning on starting feat chains that require Dodge, or taking a PrC in the future and Dodge is a requirement.

A better defensive option, imo, is Combat Expertise. There is also a new feat in the Complete Scoundrel that allows you to add an additional 1d6 damage when taking at least a -2 to your BAB thru' Combat Expertise. I forget the name, but it's a much better option, imo.

Dodge is generally a pretty weak feat by itself.
crowclub
03-10-07, 06:42 PM You do realize that's not the best benefit of Adaptive Style right?

You do realize that it normally takes 5 minutes of meditation to change your readied maneuvers outside of combat and that Adaptive Style can do it in 6 seconds right?

What a whole 5 minutes out of combat ! OMG ! If you want to throw a Feat away (right?) to save 5 minutes (right?) of out of combat time (right?) then you go ahead..right?

Most of the time you pick the best manoeuvres you have. If, and it is IF, you have the advantage of scouting out whats ahead and are able to hand pick the best manoeuvres for that situation then 5 minutes isn't going to change a whole lot, most of the time IMO.
Sure occationally it'll be nice to do it instantly but not IMO at the cost of a Feat.

I agree with Iarmeister about Dodge, I wouldn't take it either.
Deus_Proelii
03-10-07, 07:43 PM No to Dodge eh? What would you recommend then? I'm not sure Combat Expertise is that great a choice, because to fully exploit the different feat chains stemming from Combat Expertise would require more feats than the swordsage can really provide. And to my knowledge, most of those feat chains aren't that worthwhile over 20 levels of play (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.) What's that feat that allows you to sub AB for damage?

I have never actually played a swordsage before, this would be my very first time. I guess I'll see how useful Adaptive Style really is.

So, no further suggestions for my last two feat choices?
Deus_Proelii
03-10-07, 08:02 PM Oh, and I was also wondering... is it legal for me to take Improved Critical (bastard sword) without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)? Considering that I am wielding the bastard sword in two hands...
Grimmsfeld
03-10-07, 08:11 PM I'm trying to figure out the logic of a swordsage leap attack build...
enlightened
03-10-07, 08:16 PM I'm trying to figure out the logic of a swordsage leap attack build...

It fits the theme of the Tiger Claw style.
Argaud
03-10-07, 08:27 PM I'd recomend you go Swordsage 12/Master of the Nine 5/Something 3 if you can. Picking 8 high-level maneuvers and 2 stances in 5 levels (plus all the goodies of Mo9, like dual stance and massive damage bonus in all strikes) is just awesome.

This means you need Dodge, Adaptive Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Initiative and Blind-fight by level 12 ;)

As for the maneuvers and stances. You have a few very good ones missing. Child of Shadows stance allows moving wihtout provoking AoOs, for instance (you have cover!). Hearing the Air stance grants blinsense. One with Shadows counter makes you incorporeal one round. Shadow Blink for short range teleport. Hmm. Okay, I guess it is a question of styles :). I don't like Desert Wind at all, but I think Shadow Hand is pretty good.
Kage_no_Neko
03-10-07, 08:28 PM Oh, and I was also wondering... is it legal for me to take Improved Critical (bastard sword) without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)? Considering that I am wielding the bastard sword in two hands...

Perfectly legal. As a swordsage you are proficient with all martial weapons, and a bastard sword/katana is a two-handed martial weapon.

Now if you were forced to use the bastard sword one-handed, not only would you be at a -4 penalty for not being so proficient, but you would not be able to use the Improved Critical feat with that attack.
Millenia
03-10-07, 08:44 PM No to Dodge eh? What would you recommend then? I'm not sure Combat Expertise is that great a choice, because to fully exploit the different feat chains stemming from Combat Expertise would require more feats than the swordsage can really provide. And to my knowledge, most of those feat chains aren't that worthwhile over 20 levels of play (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.)
Actually, Improved Trip would be pretty worthwhile if you invested heavily in Setting Sun maneuvers. That is, assuming that I remember correctly that Setting Sun is the trip-crazy school....
ibayboy
03-10-07, 09:27 PM I'm trying to figure out the logic of a swordsage leap attack build...

I was also musing on this. Most of the strikes cannot be used on a charge, so it might be limited in its effectiveness. My Warblade found that out too late, teach me not to rush in and to read the books thoroughly.
Argaud
03-10-07, 10:08 PM I was also musing on this. Most of the strikes cannot be used on a charge, so it might be limited in its effectiveness. My Warblade found that out too late, teach me not to rush in and to read the books thoroughly.
If you are playing a warblade try Pouncing Charge + Leap Attack + Headless Charge (from Shock Trooper). Much death and carnage will follow.

Not so good for a swordshage because the lower bab.
ibayboy
03-11-07, 01:25 AM If you are playing a warblade try Pouncing Charge + Leap Attack + Headless Charge (from Shock Trooper). Much death and carnage will follow.

Not so good for a swordshage because the lower bab.

I've been kinda concentrating on SD and IH maveuvers, so i may struggle to get the 2 TC man's for the pre-req. No forthought again.:mad:
Iarmeister
03-11-07, 05:17 AM No to Dodge eh? What would you recommend then? I'm not sure Combat Expertise is that great a choice, because to fully exploit the different feat chains stemming from Combat Expertise would require more feats than the swordsage can really provide. And to my knowledge, most of those feat chains aren't that worthwhile over 20 levels of play (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.) What's that feat that allows you to sub AB for damage?

I have never actually played a swordsage before, this would be my very first time. I guess I'll see how useful Adaptive Style really is.

So, no further suggestions for my last two feat choices?

The reason Combat Expertise is a better feat choice than Dodge (again, assuming you aren't planning on completing feat-chains that require Dodge or multi-classing into a PrC with Dodge as a Prereq; Mo9, for example) is that it also provides better defense to your AC. Throw in the fact that it's a prereq for Improved Feint, which is awesome if you focus on Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Dodge = +1 to your AC. Period. By itself, it's not a worthwhile feat.
Combat Expertise = +1 to +5 to your AC, better for situations when you really can't afford to get hit.

Also, remember that a Swordsage is, at best, lightly armored. She will need an option of boosting her AC, and Combat Expertise lets her do that without going Fully Defensive, meaning she can still go offensive and attack.

If you're not really wanting to go with Combat Expertise, might I suggest taking either Improved Initiative to stack with Quick to Act class ability? Or, Combat Reflexes is always a good one, especially if you combine that with a reach weapon.
Crimson_Concerto
03-11-07, 03:12 PM I'm going to agree that Dodge is not worthwhile if you don't plan on taking the feats it qualifies you for.
I'm also going to recommend against Improved Critical. Just buy the Keen enchantment for your Katana, and that should be fine. Feats are much less expendable and common than gp.
I'm also personally not crazy about Sudden Recovery, but I have no experience with it, so I couldn't say for sure.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-11-07, 04:06 PM > What a whole 5 minutes out of combat ! OMG ! If you want to throw a Feat
> away (right?) to save 5 minutes (right?) of out of combat time (right?) then
> you go ahead..right?

Until an encounter begins and you find you don't have the right maneuvers readied. The saving throw boosters are prime candidates here, but being able to shuffle your maneuvers to be appropriate to the encounter can save your bacon in a lot of situations.
Deus_Proelii
03-11-07, 06:15 PM Hmmm... Thanks for that advice regarding Imp. Crit. I never saw it that way...

As for the logic behind a leap attack build, it's simple - swordsages can't use shields. This leaves them two options - TWF or two-handed. I dislike how going TWF automatically obliges you to take Shadow Blade and go heavy on Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances... So this character is an attempt to explore the 2H option.

Based on that logic, using power attack and leap attack make sense - considering the 2 for 1 exchange rate between attack bonus and damage when going 2H. That also explains my exclusive focus on strikes which maximize damage per attack, rather than number of attacks.
Iarmeister
03-11-07, 09:11 PM Based on that logic, using power attack and leap attack make sense - considering the 2 for 1 exchange rate between attack bonus and damage when going 2H. That also explains my exclusive focus on strikes which maximize damage per attack, rather than number of attacks.

Then you will certainly be focusing on Stone Dragon maneuvers, as they are simply nasty when it comes to damage output.

'Sides...I have a player-character who games with me on Saturdays who loves screaming out "Bonecrusher!!!" everytime he initiates that strike. Hasn't gotten old yet. :P
Grimmsfeld
03-12-07, 01:02 AM Meh, whatever looks like it's going to float your boat.

The one thing I will say that's mechanically wrong with your build: if you are going to swordsage 20, or even swordsage 2, you have to have at least 2 1st level stances. You can't swap them out for higher level ones like you can with other maneuvers. Looks like you've got two too many 3rd level stances.
ThePope
03-14-07, 02:04 AM Meh, whatever looks like it's going to float your boat.

The one thing I will say that's mechanically wrong with your build: if you are going to swordsage 20, or even swordsage 2, you have to have at least 2 1st level stances. You can't swap them out for higher level ones like you can with other maneuvers. Looks like you've got two too many 3rd level stances.

dang was getting to the end of the thread and thinking noone was going to notice that. yes, like he said, stances are not swappable at even levels.

couple things though on the manuevers i'd reccomend changing out some strikes for boosts... you can only prep so many manuevers and personally i'd work towards prepping boost/strike combos rather than 2 strikes. fun boosts like Cloak of Deception :) heck, while fire is not the damage of choice at high levels, Burning Blade doesn't have a cap on its +damage... so at lvl 20 its 1d6+20... which is darn good for a lvl 1 manuever.
Deus_Proelii
03-15-07, 11:07 AM Ah... I see.

Well the thing about boosts though, is that the best boosts are in Desert Wind or Tiger Claw. I have taken DW boosts, swapping out Burning Blade for Inferno Blade. But I avoided the Tiger Claw boosts (Raging Mongoose etc.) because I figured they were better for TWF builds. Since I'm using a single weapon in two hands I thought the most optimal approach was to maximize damage per strike rather than number of attacks (Time Stands Still, obviously, is the exception to this).
AngeltheImmortalofHelm
03-15-07, 01:50 PM My lvl build for a sword sage is 10sword sage/10 ninja of setting sun and if i go above twenty which i hope i do add 5 levels of master of the nine from these class u get the most effective out put for amount of manuvers
ThePope
03-16-07, 12:43 AM Ah... I see.

Well the thing about boosts though, is that the best boosts are in Desert Wind or Tiger Claw. I have taken DW boosts, swapping out Burning Blade for Inferno Blade. But I avoided the Tiger Claw boosts (Raging Mongoose etc.) because I figured they were better for TWF builds. Since I'm using a single weapon in two hands I thought the most optimal approach was to maximize damage per strike rather than number of attacks (Time Stands Still, obviously, is the exception to this).

ah but just think about something like raging mongoose. it allows an extra two attacks with each weapon... and while i agree that it seems more efficient for TWF you can't tell me that a fighter would have a problem with having 6 attacks rather than 4 at lvl 20... specially when you tell him that he gets 3 attacks at his highest bonus.

hit raging mongoose, then power attack and use your favorite strike, that's loads better than having an extra strike that you'll never prep.

i went the TWF route myself, and goodies like being able to do things like dual boosting Cloak of Deception and Girallon Fleshrip then attacking with Time Stands Still... (which gives me 12 flat-footed attacks with 20d6 damage as long as 8 of them hit)
Iarmeister
03-16-07, 12:55 AM Ah... I see.

Well the thing about boosts though, is that the best boosts are in Desert Wind or Tiger Claw. I have taken DW boosts, swapping out Burning Blade for Inferno Blade. But I avoided the Tiger Claw boosts (Raging Mongoose etc.) because I figured they were better for TWF builds. Since I'm using a single weapon in two hands I thought the most optimal approach was to maximize damage per strike rather than number of attacks (Time Stands Still, obviously, is the exception to this).

Here's a cool Nova-type combo from the CO Boards...great against most things with no resistance/immunities to fire.

Swordsage 20 double boosting Raging Mongoose + Inferno Blade with Time Stands Still strike with a blade that has the Speed and Deadly precision enhancement on it. TWF makes it uber strong, but it's great anyway...

Have the Shadow Blade feat and be in the Assasin's Stance for more brutality unleashed!
ThePope
03-16-07, 01:32 AM Here's a cool Nova-type combo from the CO Boards...great against most things with no resistance/immunities to fire.

Swordsage 20 double boosting Raging Mongoose + Inferno Blade with Time Stands Still strike with a blade that has the Speed and Deadly precision enhancement on it. TWF makes it uber strong, but it's great anyway...

Have the Shadow Blade feat and be in the Assasin's Stance for more brutality unleashed!

heh, dual boost opens up quite a few of those nasty types of combos.
Iarmeister
03-16-07, 03:04 AM heh, dual boost opens up quite a few of those nasty types of combos.

Agreed. Dual Boost is perhaps one of the few capstone abilities worth investing 20 levels in a single class.
johnnyputrid
03-17-07, 01:40 AM If you are looking for strikes that maximize damage output, Diamond Mind has a few that a quite worthwhile. Insightful Strike and the greater version both deal your Concentration check as damage. Picking up the Steady Concentration feat (from Races of Stone) allows you to take 10 on this check, guaranteeing you maximum damage from the maneuver.

This is feat with easy requirments (8 ranks in Concentration) and would be a nice 6th level feat to pick up. Not only will it maximize your Diamond Mind strikes, but many of your counters as well. Even at 6th level, 9 ranks in Concentration while taking 10 on a Moment of Perfect Mind counter equals a Will save of +19! And being able to consistently whip out a strike dealing 19 points of damage every time beats random rolls with almost any weapon.

I recently worked up a greatsword-wielding 12th level barbarian 2/warblade 10 with a Concentration mod of +17. His Insightful Strikes always deal 27 points and his Will save is always +27 when using MoPM. While his Elder Mountain Hammer + Punishing Stance combo can potentially whip out more damage (2d6 +1d6 +6d6+Str, PA and/or rage), bad rolls happen from time to time. From now on, any build I make using DM moves picks up this wonderful feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deus_Proelii 03-10-07, 01:57 PM	This swordsage isn't going TWF but is wielding a bastard sword/katana with both hands. I know which feats to get initially but I'm not quite sure about higher levels. Here are my choices so far. 1. Dodge, Adaptive Style 3. Power Attack 6. Leap Attack 9. Sudden Recovery 12. Improved Critical (Bastard Sword/Katana) 15. ? 18. ? What should I take for my last two feat choices? Since this character will be using a weapon with both hands, I've also chosen maneuvers capitalizing on that. Stances – 1. Leaping Dragon Stance (TC 3) 2. Pearl of Black Doubt (DM 3) 3. Roots of the Mountain (SD 3) 4. Assassin’s Stance (SH 3) 5. Giant’s Stance (SD 5) 6. Strength of Stone (SD 8) Strikes – 1. Flashing Sun (DW 2), 2. Emerald Razor (DM 2), 3. Claw at the Moon (TC 2), 4. Bonecrusher (SD 3), 5. Death From Above (TC 4), 6. Pouncing Charge (TC 5), 7. Greater Insightful Strike (DM 6), 8. Crushing Vise (SD 6), 9. Irresistible Mountain Strike (SD 6), 10. Avalanche of Blades (DM 7), 11. Ancient Mountain Hammer (SD 7), 12. Swooping Dragon Strike (TC 7), 13. Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM 8), 14. Adamantine Bones (SD 8), 15. Time Stands Still (DM 9), 16. Feral Death Blow (TC 9) Counters – 1. Moment of Perfect Mind (DM 1), 2. Counter Charge (SS 1), 3. Action Before Thought (DM 2), 4. Mind Over Body (DM 3), 5. Diamond Defense (DM 8) Boosts – 1. Sudden Leap (TC 1), 2. Burning Brand (DW 2), 3. Inferno Blade (DW 7), 4. Quicksilver Motion (DM 7) How is this selection?
crowclub 03-10-07, 03:17 PM	1. Dodge, Adaptive Style I'm not totally sold on the "swordsages must take Adaptive Style" line of thought. Firstly, you get plenty of Manoeuvres each encounter. Secondly, how often are you really going to spend an entire round doing nothing to refresh your manoeuvres? How many rounds does combat last? Subtract the number of manoeuvres you have (+1 for re-gaining them) from that total. How many rounds are left? To be honest, I think re-gaining one of those manoeuvres without the Feat is going to be fine. Also as you level up there will be times when your best option will be to do a full round attack, which counts out almost all your manoeuvres anyway.
DarkRhystar 03-10-07, 05:11 PM	1. Dodge, Adaptive Style I'm not totally sold on the "swordsages must take Adaptive Style" line of thought. Firstly, you get plenty of Manoeuvres each encounter. Secondly, how often are you really going to spend an entire round doing nothing to refresh your manoeuvres? How many rounds does combat last? Subtract the number of manoeuvres you have (+1 for re-gaining them) from that total. How many rounds are left? To be honest, I think re-gaining one of those manoeuvres without the Feat is going to be fine. Also as you level up there will be times when your best option will be to do a full round attack, which counts out almost all your manoeuvres anyway. You do realize that's not the best benefit of Adaptive Style right? You do realize that it normally takes 5 minutes of meditation to change your readied maneuvers outside of combat and that Adaptive Style can do it in 6 seconds right?
Iarmeister 03-10-07, 05:46 PM	You do realize that's not the best benefit of Adaptive Style right? You do realize that it normally takes 5 minutes of meditation to change your readied maneuvers outside of combat and that Adaptive Style can do it in 6 seconds right? QFT! Another thing...I'm not sure Dodge is the best option for a Sword Sage UNLESS you're planning on starting feat chains that require Dodge, or taking a PrC in the future and Dodge is a requirement. A better defensive option, imo, is Combat Expertise. There is also a new feat in the Complete Scoundrel that allows you to add an additional 1d6 damage when taking at least a -2 to your BAB thru' Combat Expertise. I forget the name, but it's a much better option, imo. Dodge is generally a pretty weak feat by itself.
crowclub 03-10-07, 06:42 PM	You do realize that's not the best benefit of Adaptive Style right? You do realize that it normally takes 5 minutes of meditation to change your readied maneuvers outside of combat and that Adaptive Style can do it in 6 seconds right? What a whole 5 minutes out of combat ! OMG ! If you want to throw a Feat away (right?) to save 5 minutes (right?) of out of combat time (right?) then you go ahead..right? Most of the time you pick the best manoeuvres you have. If, and it is IF, you have the advantage of scouting out whats ahead and are able to hand pick the best manoeuvres for that situation then 5 minutes isn't going to change a whole lot, most of the time IMO. Sure occationally it'll be nice to do it instantly but not IMO at the cost of a Feat. I agree with Iarmeister about Dodge, I wouldn't take it either.
Deus_Proelii 03-10-07, 07:43 PM	No to Dodge eh? What would you recommend then? I'm not sure Combat Expertise is that great a choice, because to fully exploit the different feat chains stemming from Combat Expertise would require more feats than the swordsage can really provide. And to my knowledge, most of those feat chains aren't that worthwhile over 20 levels of play (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.) What's that feat that allows you to sub AB for damage? I have never actually played a swordsage before, this would be my very first time. I guess I'll see how useful Adaptive Style really is. So, no further suggestions for my last two feat choices?
Deus_Proelii 03-10-07, 08:02 PM	Oh, and I was also wondering... is it legal for me to take Improved Critical (bastard sword) without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)? Considering that I am wielding the bastard sword in two hands...
Grimmsfeld 03-10-07, 08:11 PM	I'm trying to figure out the logic of a swordsage leap attack build...
enlightened 03-10-07, 08:16 PM	I'm trying to figure out the logic of a swordsage leap attack build... It fits the theme of the Tiger Claw style.
Argaud 03-10-07, 08:27 PM	I'd recomend you go Swordsage 12/Master of the Nine 5/Something 3 if you can. Picking 8 high-level maneuvers and 2 stances in 5 levels (plus all the goodies of Mo9, like dual stance and massive damage bonus in all strikes) is just awesome. This means you need Dodge, Adaptive Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Initiative and Blind-fight by level 12 ;) As for the maneuvers and stances. You have a few very good ones missing. Child of Shadows stance allows moving wihtout provoking AoOs, for instance (you have cover!). Hearing the Air stance grants blinsense. One with Shadows counter makes you incorporeal one round. Shadow Blink for short range teleport. Hmm. Okay, I guess it is a question of styles :). I don't like Desert Wind at all, but I think Shadow Hand is pretty good.
Kage_no_Neko 03-10-07, 08:28 PM	Oh, and I was also wondering... is it legal for me to take Improved Critical (bastard sword) without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)? Considering that I am wielding the bastard sword in two hands... Perfectly legal. As a swordsage you are proficient with all martial weapons, and a bastard sword/katana is a two-handed martial weapon. Now if you were forced to use the bastard sword one-handed, not only would you be at a -4 penalty for not being so proficient, but you would not be able to use the Improved Critical feat with that attack.
Millenia 03-10-07, 08:44 PM	No to Dodge eh? What would you recommend then? I'm not sure Combat Expertise is that great a choice, because to fully exploit the different feat chains stemming from Combat Expertise would require more feats than the swordsage can really provide. And to my knowledge, most of those feat chains aren't that worthwhile over 20 levels of play (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.) Actually, Improved Trip would be pretty worthwhile if you invested heavily in Setting Sun maneuvers. That is, assuming that I remember correctly that Setting Sun is the trip-crazy school....
ibayboy 03-10-07, 09:27 PM	I'm trying to figure out the logic of a swordsage leap attack build... I was also musing on this. Most of the strikes cannot be used on a charge, so it might be limited in its effectiveness. My Warblade found that out too late, teach me not to rush in and to read the books thoroughly.
Argaud 03-10-07, 10:08 PM	I was also musing on this. Most of the strikes cannot be used on a charge, so it might be limited in its effectiveness. My Warblade found that out too late, teach me not to rush in and to read the books thoroughly. If you are playing a warblade try Pouncing Charge + Leap Attack + Headless Charge (from Shock Trooper). Much death and carnage will follow. Not so good for a swordshage because the lower bab.
ibayboy 03-11-07, 01:25 AM	If you are playing a warblade try Pouncing Charge + Leap Attack + Headless Charge (from Shock Trooper). Much death and carnage will follow. Not so good for a swordshage because the lower bab. I've been kinda concentrating on SD and IH maveuvers, so i may struggle to get the 2 TC man's for the pre-req. No forthought again.:mad:
Iarmeister 03-11-07, 05:17 AM	No to Dodge eh? What would you recommend then? I'm not sure Combat Expertise is that great a choice, because to fully exploit the different feat chains stemming from Combat Expertise would require more feats than the swordsage can really provide. And to my knowledge, most of those feat chains aren't that worthwhile over 20 levels of play (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.) What's that feat that allows you to sub AB for damage? I have never actually played a swordsage before, this would be my very first time. I guess I'll see how useful Adaptive Style really is. So, no further suggestions for my last two feat choices? The reason Combat Expertise is a better feat choice than Dodge (again, assuming you aren't planning on completing feat-chains that require Dodge or multi-classing into a PrC with Dodge as a Prereq; Mo9, for example) is that it also provides better defense to your AC. Throw in the fact that it's a prereq for Improved Feint, which is awesome if you focus on Shadow Hand maneuvers. Dodge = +1 to your AC. Period. By itself, it's not a worthwhile feat. Combat Expertise = +1 to +5 to your AC, better for situations when you really can't afford to get hit. Also, remember that a Swordsage is, at best, lightly armored. She will need an option of boosting her AC, and Combat Expertise lets her do that without going Fully Defensive, meaning she can still go offensive and attack. If you're not really wanting to go with Combat Expertise, might I suggest taking either Improved Initiative to stack with Quick to Act class ability? Or, Combat Reflexes is always a good one, especially if you combine that with a reach weapon.
Crimson_Concerto 03-11-07, 03:12 PM	I'm going to agree that Dodge is not worthwhile if you don't plan on taking the feats it qualifies you for. I'm also going to recommend against Improved Critical. Just buy the Keen enchantment for your Katana, and that should be fine. Feats are much less expendable and common than gp. I'm also personally not crazy about Sudden Recovery, but I have no experience with it, so I couldn't say for sure.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-11-07, 04:06 PM	> What a whole 5 minutes out of combat ! OMG ! If you want to throw a Feat > away (right?) to save 5 minutes (right?) of out of combat time (right?) then > you go ahead..right? Until an encounter begins and you find you don't have the right maneuvers readied. The saving throw boosters are prime candidates here, but being able to shuffle your maneuvers to be appropriate to the encounter can save your bacon in a lot of situations.
Deus_Proelii 03-11-07, 06:15 PM	Hmmm... Thanks for that advice regarding Imp. Crit. I never saw it that way... As for the logic behind a leap attack build, it's simple - swordsages can't use shields. This leaves them two options - TWF or two-handed. I dislike how going TWF automatically obliges you to take Shadow Blade and go heavy on Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances... So this character is an attempt to explore the 2H option. Based on that logic, using power attack and leap attack make sense - considering the 2 for 1 exchange rate between attack bonus and damage when going 2H. That also explains my exclusive focus on strikes which maximize damage per attack, rather than number of attacks.
Iarmeister 03-11-07, 09:11 PM	Based on that logic, using power attack and leap attack make sense - considering the 2 for 1 exchange rate between attack bonus and damage when going 2H. That also explains my exclusive focus on strikes which maximize damage per attack, rather than number of attacks. Then you will certainly be focusing on Stone Dragon maneuvers, as they are simply nasty when it comes to damage output. 'Sides...I have a player-character who games with me on Saturdays who loves screaming out "Bonecrusher!!!" everytime he initiates that strike. Hasn't gotten old yet. :P
Grimmsfeld 03-12-07, 01:02 AM	Meh, whatever looks like it's going to float your boat. The one thing I will say that's mechanically wrong with your build: if you are going to swordsage 20, or even swordsage 2, you have to have at least 2 1st level stances. You can't swap them out for higher level ones like you can with other maneuvers. Looks like you've got two too many 3rd level stances.
ThePope 03-14-07, 02:04 AM	Meh, whatever looks like it's going to float your boat. The one thing I will say that's mechanically wrong with your build: if you are going to swordsage 20, or even swordsage 2, you have to have at least 2 1st level stances. You can't swap them out for higher level ones like you can with other maneuvers. Looks like you've got two too many 3rd level stances. dang was getting to the end of the thread and thinking noone was going to notice that. yes, like he said, stances are not swappable at even levels. couple things though on the manuevers i'd reccomend changing out some strikes for boosts... you can only prep so many manuevers and personally i'd work towards prepping boost/strike combos rather than 2 strikes. fun boosts like Cloak of Deception :) heck, while fire is not the damage of choice at high levels, Burning Blade doesn't have a cap on its +damage... so at lvl 20 its 1d6+20... which is darn good for a lvl 1 manuever.
Deus_Proelii 03-15-07, 11:07 AM	Ah... I see. Well the thing about boosts though, is that the best boosts are in Desert Wind or Tiger Claw. I have taken DW boosts, swapping out Burning Blade for Inferno Blade. But I avoided the Tiger Claw boosts (Raging Mongoose etc.) because I figured they were better for TWF builds. Since I'm using a single weapon in two hands I thought the most optimal approach was to maximize damage per strike rather than number of attacks (Time Stands Still, obviously, is the exception to this).
AngeltheImmortalofHelm 03-15-07, 01:50 PM	My lvl build for a sword sage is 10sword sage/10 ninja of setting sun and if i go above twenty which i hope i do add 5 levels of master of the nine from these class u get the most effective out put for amount of manuvers
ThePope 03-16-07, 12:43 AM	Ah... I see. Well the thing about boosts though, is that the best boosts are in Desert Wind or Tiger Claw. I have taken DW boosts, swapping out Burning Blade for Inferno Blade. But I avoided the Tiger Claw boosts (Raging Mongoose etc.) because I figured they were better for TWF builds. Since I'm using a single weapon in two hands I thought the most optimal approach was to maximize damage per strike rather than number of attacks (Time Stands Still, obviously, is the exception to this). ah but just think about something like raging mongoose. it allows an extra two attacks with each weapon... and while i agree that it seems more efficient for TWF you can't tell me that a fighter would have a problem with having 6 attacks rather than 4 at lvl 20... specially when you tell him that he gets 3 attacks at his highest bonus. hit raging mongoose, then power attack and use your favorite strike, that's loads better than having an extra strike that you'll never prep. i went the TWF route myself, and goodies like being able to do things like dual boosting Cloak of Deception and Girallon Fleshrip then attacking with Time Stands Still... (which gives me 12 flat-footed attacks with 20d6 damage as long as 8 of them hit)
Iarmeister 03-16-07, 12:55 AM	Ah... I see. Well the thing about boosts though, is that the best boosts are in Desert Wind or Tiger Claw. I have taken DW boosts, swapping out Burning Blade for Inferno Blade. But I avoided the Tiger Claw boosts (Raging Mongoose etc.) because I figured they were better for TWF builds. Since I'm using a single weapon in two hands I thought the most optimal approach was to maximize damage per strike rather than number of attacks (Time Stands Still, obviously, is the exception to this). Here's a cool Nova-type combo from the CO Boards...great against most things with no resistance/immunities to fire. Swordsage 20 double boosting Raging Mongoose + Inferno Blade with Time Stands Still strike with a blade that has the Speed and Deadly precision enhancement on it. TWF makes it uber strong, but it's great anyway... Have the Shadow Blade feat and be in the Assasin's Stance for more brutality unleashed!
ThePope 03-16-07, 01:32 AM	Here's a cool Nova-type combo from the CO Boards...great against most things with no resistance/immunities to fire. Swordsage 20 double boosting Raging Mongoose + Inferno Blade with Time Stands Still strike with a blade that has the Speed and Deadly precision enhancement on it. TWF makes it uber strong, but it's great anyway... Have the Shadow Blade feat and be in the Assasin's Stance for more brutality unleashed! heh, dual boost opens up quite a few of those nasty types of combos.
Iarmeister 03-16-07, 03:04 AM	heh, dual boost opens up quite a few of those nasty types of combos. Agreed. Dual Boost is perhaps one of the few capstone abilities worth investing 20 levels in a single class.
johnnyputrid 03-17-07, 01:40 AM	If you are looking for strikes that maximize damage output, Diamond Mind has a few that a quite worthwhile. Insightful Strike and the greater version both deal your Concentration check as damage. Picking up the Steady Concentration feat (from Races of Stone) allows you to take 10 on this check, guaranteeing you maximum damage from the maneuver. This is feat with easy requirments (8 ranks in Concentration) and would be a nice 6th level feat to pick up. Not only will it maximize your Diamond Mind strikes, but many of your counters as well. Even at 6th level, 9 ranks in Concentration while taking 10 on a Moment of Perfect Mind counter equals a Will save of +19! And being able to consistently whip out a strike dealing 19 points of damage every time beats random rolls with almost any weapon. I recently worked up a greatsword-wielding 12th level barbarian 2/warblade 10 with a Concentration mod of +17. His Insightful Strikes always deal 27 points and his Will save is always +27 when using MoPM. While his Elder Mountain Hammer + Punishing Stance combo can potentially whip out more damage (2d6 +1d6 +6d6+Str, PA and/or rage), bad rolls happen from time to time. From now on, any build I make using DM moves picks up this wonderful feat.