Feat Fix: Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat Fix: Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Spikes01k
08-15-07, 06:00 PM I was wondering if you could please tell me if you think reducing the negatives to Monkey Grip to only -1, or even no minus at all, would be too OVER powering?

I agree with probably everyone here that the feat is not worth it, thus why they have the Strong Arm Bracers for such a cheap price.

Which would you think is less mathamaticl proper: -2, -1, or -0 to hit, with the monkey grip feat?
Frugal
08-16-07, 11:43 AM I was wondering if you could please tell me if you think reducing the negatives to Monkey Grip to only -1, or even no minus at all, would be too OVER powering?

I agree with probably everyone here that the feat is not worth it, thus why they have the Strong Arm Bracers for such a cheap price.

Which would you think is less mathamaticl proper: -2, -1, or -0 to hit, with the monkey grip feat?

The problem is that the best payoffs give a 3.5 average increase (2d6 = avg 7, 3d6 = 10.5 avg, 1d10= 5.5 avg, 2d8 = 9 avg). So -2 for +3.5 on average makes it mathematically worse than the guaranteed -2 for +4 from Power Attack. But making it -1 for +3.5 or -0 for +3.5 would be far too good.
ravenshrike
08-16-07, 11:50 AM True, but then you never get more than that 3.5 damage out of Monkey Grip, whereas PA while you get less per BAB spent, you can get much, much more damage out of it in the long run. Really it wouldn't be overpowered at -1.
Spikes01k
08-16-07, 11:51 AM The problem is that the best payoffs give a 3.5 average increase (2d6 = avg 7, 3d6 = 10.5 avg, 1d10= 5.5 avg, 2d8 = 9 avg). So -2 for +3.5 on average makes it mathematically worse than the guaranteed -2 for +4 from Power Attack. But making it -1 for +3.5 or -0 for +3.5 would be far too good.

How about as an improvement to power attack requiring power attack feat to get monkey grip? The idea is you got to learn to hit harder to be able to swing a bigger weapon.

p.s. that would mean it requires power attack to get.
jaelis
08-16-07, 12:08 PM Monkey grip is already quite strong for large creatures, this would make it that much better.

Really, it should be something like no penalty for Tiny or smaller creatures, -1 for small, -2 for medium, and so forth.

If you reduced the penalties by 1 from that, it would become a quite good feat, but probably not unreasonable.
Rederik
08-16-07, 12:16 PM I love the Monkey Grip feat because everyone wants to play Final Fantasy Anime and wield swords bigger then themselves :D

Really though, Monkey Grip is not a power gamer feat, it is a flavor feat... So, If you are a power gamer, take Power Attack and if you want to wield a big freegin sword, take Monkey Grip...

Or, you can be awesome and use both!!!

[Edit]

1d12 + PA for 2= 10.5 damage (6.5 +4) with a range of 5-16

3d6 (MG)= 10.5 damage (3.5 * 3) with a range of 3-18

So the difference is really statistically insignificant. The only diffenerce really comes in the range of damage (not the average.) The 1d12 plus 2 PA will have a smaller damager range, however the the 3d6 MG has the ability to deal more damage on a single hit.
tarkin
08-16-07, 12:33 PM The problem with Monkey Grip is simple:

The weapon increases at low sizes (i.e human, and even ogre sized) are small but the weapon increases for big sizes (Giant and Dragon) are huge.

So if you make the feat nice for a medium sized creature it becomes ABUSIVE for a large sized creature.

Do you want to know how to fix Monkey Grip?? Forget about increasing damage at all.

Here it is. Short. Simple. Fair for all creatures.

Monkey Grip

Pre reqs: Strength 13+, size of Medium or larger

Benefit:
You have learned how to use a weapon that is one size larger than you. You do not need to increase the weapon category from light to one handed, one handed to two handed or two handed to unsuable.

When you do so, the damage done is NOT increased. Instead you do the same damage as if using a weapon of your regular size.

However, you gain +5 reach, inclusive when using the larger weapon.

Making attacks with the weapon is unchanged - it still takes a -2 penalty to hit.

-----------------------

This version is useable by any creature from Medium to Gargantuan without concern about abuse at either end.
jaelis
08-16-07, 12:39 PM However, you gain +5 reach, inclusive when using the larger weapon.

Be kind of odd for a halfling to get better reach with a medium longsword than a human does.
tarkin
08-16-07, 12:49 PM Which is why I put in the line:

Pre reqs: Strength 13+, size of Medium or larger

I would probably allow the standard Monkey Grip at a -1 to hit instead of -2 for creatures small size or shorter.
jaelis
08-16-07, 12:51 PM Sorry I missed that :)
Arkeas
08-16-07, 02:14 PM Sidebar: The feat is good for dwarven waraxes and one-handed bastard swords.

Power Attack - 1d10 (5.5+2=7.5)

Monkey Grip - 2d8 (9)
Frugal
08-16-07, 02:22 PM Sidebar: The feat is good for dwarven waraxes and one-handed bastard swords.

Power Attack - 1d10 (5.5+2=7.5)

Monkey Grip - 2d8 (9)

True, although the FAQ would seem to indicate that it doesn't work as it says that you treat bastard swords and waraxes as 2-handed martial weapons for the purposes of sizing and handedness (so a dwarf can't wield a large waraxe 2-handed at -2 penalty since it's considered a large 2-hander). Yes, I know people argue about this as being valid or not, just saying that it's in the FAQ.
Sigfried Trent
08-17-07, 03:33 PM There is a nifty average damage calculator out there that comes in handy for this kind of stuff.

At the NBOF we were working on a proposed feat that was similar to Monkey Grip but more expansive. (It essentialy lessoned the effort on weapons but imposed a -2 to hit penalty.) Along with it we made a second feat that removed the -2 penalty.

We ran some calculations on how effective it is and we compared it to Weapon Focus and Weapon Specilization. It was remarkable how closely the two sets of feats compared.. the damage graphs across ac were almost identical curves for a range of weapons. Monkey grip (or lighten weapon in our case) was weaker than WF or WS, but the penalty removal feat was a tad stronger. Put together they were comprable. We decided to limit Lighten Weapon and Improved Lighten Weapon to a single weapon choice as a measure to balance them out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spikes01k 08-15-07, 06:00 PM	I was wondering if you could please tell me if you think reducing the negatives to Monkey Grip to only -1, or even no minus at all, would be too OVER powering? I agree with probably everyone here that the feat is not worth it, thus why they have the Strong Arm Bracers for such a cheap price. Which would you think is less mathamaticl proper: -2, -1, or -0 to hit, with the monkey grip feat?
Frugal 08-16-07, 11:43 AM	I was wondering if you could please tell me if you think reducing the negatives to Monkey Grip to only -1, or even no minus at all, would be too OVER powering? I agree with probably everyone here that the feat is not worth it, thus why they have the Strong Arm Bracers for such a cheap price. Which would you think is less mathamaticl proper: -2, -1, or -0 to hit, with the monkey grip feat? The problem is that the best payoffs give a 3.5 average increase (2d6 = avg 7, 3d6 = 10.5 avg, 1d10= 5.5 avg, 2d8 = 9 avg). So -2 for +3.5 on average makes it mathematically worse than the guaranteed -2 for +4 from Power Attack. But making it -1 for +3.5 or -0 for +3.5 would be far too good.
ravenshrike 08-16-07, 11:50 AM	True, but then you never get more than that 3.5 damage out of Monkey Grip, whereas PA while you get less per BAB spent, you can get much, much more damage out of it in the long run. Really it wouldn't be overpowered at -1.
Spikes01k 08-16-07, 11:51 AM	The problem is that the best payoffs give a 3.5 average increase (2d6 = avg 7, 3d6 = 10.5 avg, 1d10= 5.5 avg, 2d8 = 9 avg). So -2 for +3.5 on average makes it mathematically worse than the guaranteed -2 for +4 from Power Attack. But making it -1 for +3.5 or -0 for +3.5 would be far too good. How about as an improvement to power attack requiring power attack feat to get monkey grip? The idea is you got to learn to hit harder to be able to swing a bigger weapon. p.s. that would mean it requires power attack to get.
jaelis 08-16-07, 12:08 PM	Monkey grip is already quite strong for large creatures, this would make it that much better. Really, it should be something like no penalty for Tiny or smaller creatures, -1 for small, -2 for medium, and so forth. If you reduced the penalties by 1 from that, it would become a quite good feat, but probably not unreasonable.
Rederik 08-16-07, 12:16 PM	I love the Monkey Grip feat because everyone wants to play Final Fantasy Anime and wield swords bigger then themselves :D Really though, Monkey Grip is not a power gamer feat, it is a flavor feat... So, If you are a power gamer, take Power Attack and if you want to wield a big freegin sword, take Monkey Grip... Or, you can be awesome and use both!!! [Edit] 1d12 + PA for 2= 10.5 damage (6.5 +4) with a range of 5-16 3d6 (MG)= 10.5 damage (3.5 * 3) with a range of 3-18 So the difference is really statistically insignificant. The only diffenerce really comes in the range of damage (not the average.) The 1d12 plus 2 PA will have a smaller damager range, however the the 3d6 MG has the ability to deal more damage on a single hit.
tarkin 08-16-07, 12:33 PM	The problem with Monkey Grip is simple: The weapon increases at low sizes (i.e human, and even ogre sized) are small but the weapon increases for big sizes (Giant and Dragon) are huge. So if you make the feat nice for a medium sized creature it becomes ABUSIVE for a large sized creature. Do you want to know how to fix Monkey Grip?? Forget about increasing damage at all. Here it is. Short. Simple. Fair for all creatures. Monkey Grip Pre reqs: Strength 13+, size of Medium or larger Benefit: You have learned how to use a weapon that is one size larger than you. You do not need to increase the weapon category from light to one handed, one handed to two handed or two handed to unsuable. When you do so, the damage done is NOT increased. Instead you do the same damage as if using a weapon of your regular size. However, you gain +5 reach, inclusive when using the larger weapon. Making attacks with the weapon is unchanged - it still takes a -2 penalty to hit. ----------------------- This version is useable by any creature from Medium to Gargantuan without concern about abuse at either end.
jaelis 08-16-07, 12:39 PM	However, you gain +5 reach, inclusive when using the larger weapon. Be kind of odd for a halfling to get better reach with a medium longsword than a human does.
tarkin 08-16-07, 12:49 PM	Which is why I put in the line: Pre reqs: Strength 13+, size of Medium or larger I would probably allow the standard Monkey Grip at a -1 to hit instead of -2 for creatures small size or shorter.
jaelis 08-16-07, 12:51 PM	Sorry I missed that :)
Arkeas 08-16-07, 02:14 PM	Sidebar: The feat is good for dwarven waraxes and one-handed bastard swords. Power Attack - 1d10 (5.5+2=7.5) Monkey Grip - 2d8 (9)
Frugal 08-16-07, 02:22 PM	Sidebar: The feat is good for dwarven waraxes and one-handed bastard swords. Power Attack - 1d10 (5.5+2=7.5) Monkey Grip - 2d8 (9) True, although the FAQ would seem to indicate that it doesn't work as it says that you treat bastard swords and waraxes as 2-handed martial weapons for the purposes of sizing and handedness (so a dwarf can't wield a large waraxe 2-handed at -2 penalty since it's considered a large 2-hander). Yes, I know people argue about this as being valid or not, just saying that it's in the FAQ.
Sigfried Trent 08-17-07, 03:33 PM	There is a nifty average damage calculator out there that comes in handy for this kind of stuff. At the NBOF we were working on a proposed feat that was similar to Monkey Grip but more expansive. (It essentialy lessoned the effort on weapons but imposed a -2 to hit penalty.) Along with it we made a second feat that removed the -2 penalty. We ran some calculations on how effective it is and we compared it to Weapon Focus and Weapon Specilization. It was remarkable how closely the two sets of feats compared.. the damage graphs across ac were almost identical curves for a range of weapons. Monkey grip (or lighten weapon in our case) was weaker than WF or WS, but the penalty removal feat was a tad stronger. Put together they were comprable. We decided to limit Lighten Weapon and Improved Lighten Weapon to a single weapon choice as a measure to balance them out.