Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fanitullen 06-21-07, 05:48 AM	Is there a feat which makes fighter and rogue levels stack for sneak attack damage? Seeing as there are so many feats that allow other classes to stack in the same manner, I'm half expecting there to be one for this as well...
Jeriaus 06-21-07, 10:20 AM	There is not, and there most likely never will be. 10 bonus feats and +10d6 sneak attack is VERY POWERFUL.
DrMorganes 06-21-07, 10:25 AM	There isn't to date, but I actually fully expect to see one in a future supplement. Why? Swift Stalker (iirc) allows one to stack ranger and scout levels for purposes of Skirmish damage. Granted, Skirmish damage applies to one attack per round and Sneak Attack applies to all qualifying attacks in a given round, but there is a definite "power creep". So check with your DM. Play test it a bit and see how well it works.
Frugal 06-21-07, 10:26 AM	Yep, this would be insanely powerful. Notice how nothing with a full BAB progression gets precision based attacks like sneak attack or skirmish? This would just be begging for a 1 level dip into Rogue. Look at a Fighter 19/Rogue 1, you lose a +1 to BAB a +1 to Fort and 1 bonus feat in exchange for a better Ref save, 10d6 sneak attack and way more skill points (especially if you take Rogue as your first level), why wouldn't you do it?
teshen 06-21-07, 04:23 PM	Is there a feat which makes fighter and rogue levels stack for sneak attack damage? . . . There is not, and there most likely never will be. 10 bonus feats and +10d6 sneak attack is VERY POWERFUL. Agreed. There could be one that lets levels of fighter count as levels of rogue for improved/uncanny dodge and trap sense, though. something that requires trap sense +1 and a base attack of +4. That could be... kind of cool.
LoreleiIsildae 06-21-07, 06:21 PM	I suppose if you wanted such an uber-powerful character you could use the gestalt character rule from UA.
the_narrator 06-22-07, 08:47 PM	Yep, this would be insanely powerful. Notice how nothing with a full BAB progression gets precision based attacks like sneak attack or skirmish? This would just be begging for a 1 level dip into Rogue. Look at a Fighter 19/Rogue 1, you lose a +1 to BAB a +1 to Fort and 1 bonus feat in exchange for a better Ref save, 10d6 sneak attack and way more skill points (especially if you take Rogue as your first level), why wouldn't you do it? Wrong! Daring Outlaw, stacks Swashbuckler and Rogue. Swashbuckler as per the CW brings his full BAB to the table to contend with the Rogue's Sneak Attack. Also, all these feats require at least three levels in both classes, so far as I know. With this as a precident, I saw no problem in allowing feats like this to apply to Ranger/ Rogue, Fighter/ Rogue, and Fighter/ Scout combos.
Twylyght 06-22-07, 11:28 PM	Wrong! Daring Outlaw, stacks Swashbuckler and Rogue. Swashbuckler as per the CW brings his full BAB to the table to contend with the Rogue's Sneak Attack. Also, all these feats require at least three levels in both classes, so far as I know. With this as a precident, I saw no problem in allowing feats like this to apply to Ranger/ Rogue, Fighter/ Rogue, and Fighter/ Scout combos. I agree, considering in most cases fighter is a lesser choice compared to some of the existing class combo feats in my opinion. Make it fighter and rogue levels stack for etermining sneak attack damage only. Make the requirements Fighter level 3rd/ and 2d6 sneak attack. They can then take fighter levels and still gain those sneak attack dice. Theres enough ways to counter sneak attacks its not that big a deal. Also consider that a more traditional Fighter/Rogue build could still reach +16 BAB(all 4 attack recieved), +8d6 sneak attack, and have 3 fighter feats. Yes this feat could gain you +3 BAB, an average of 26 hitpoints, and an additional +2d6 sneak attack damage. Pretty minor there, as in the big picture the largest of the gains is an addition 6 fighter feats. but..... compared to a traditional 16 Rog/4 Fig, the feat also ends up costing you 76 skill points, improved uncany dodge, +4 worth of trap sense, and 2 rogue special abilities. Those 2 rogue special abilities are a pretty big loss(improved evasion anyone? how about 2 STR damage on every sneak attack?). Also im pretty certain only your rogue levels count for overcomming uncanny dodge on an opponent, that could cost you a great bit aswell when trying to flank for those sneak attacks. So its not really as powerful as it seems when you look at what its really gaining and loosing over what the 2 classes did together before the feat. Is it powerful? absolutely. Is it game breaking? Hardly. Id still take a build with the before mentioned daring outlaw over the fighter build. More skill points, big dodge bonus, an intelligence bonus to daamge that goes ever so sweetly with the rogue skill, better saves over all. A daring Outlaw with a spiked chain is a mad, scary, thought. Why? Swift Stalker (iirc) allows one to stack ranger and scout levels for purposes of Skirmish damage. Granted, Skirmish damage applies to one attack per round and Sneak Attack applies to all qualifying attacks in a given round, but there is a definite "power creep". So check with your DM. Play test it a bit and see how well it works. have I missed some official errata that limits skirmish to a single attack each round, the ability text clearly states it applies to all made during the scouts turn.
aelryinth 06-22-07, 11:34 PM	Also note that there is a high skill point, full BAB PrC that gives +4d6 SA over ten levels...the Nightsong Enforcer. ===Aelryinth
Twylyght 06-22-07, 11:41 PM	I suppose as a joke I could bring up the Rokugan Ninja, but that horse has been beaten around a bit aleady lol.
Francius 06-23-07, 08:56 AM	[QUOTE=DrMorganesThere isn't to date, but I actually fully expect to see one in a future supplement.[/QUOTE] I guess we 'll have to wait for Complete Combatant, *if* them Wotc have any intention to put out something like that.
Meep326 06-23-07, 11:47 AM	Wrong! Daring Outlaw, stacks Swashbuckler and Rogue. Swashbuckler as per the CW brings his full BAB to the table to contend with the Rogue's Sneak Attack. Also, all these feats require at least three levels in both classes, so far as I know. With this as a precident, I saw no problem in allowing feats like this to apply to Ranger/ Rogue, Fighter/ Rogue, and Fighter/ Scout combos. Exactally, you have Ascetic Stalker: Monk/Ninja, I'd let Monk/Rogue work, unless that's in CAd, Daring Outlaw: Swashbuckler/Rogue, I'd prolly let Fighter/Rogue or mebbe Fighter/Barb, Martial Stalker: Fighter/Ninja: (this is a big one, I'd definetly let Fighter/Rogue work,) Swift Ambusher: Rogue/Scout? Swift Hunter: Ranger/Scout (anouther one with full attack, I'd prolly let rogue go for it.) So from these it's there, you can be sneaksy with the full BAB, and whatnot. I agree, considering in most cases fighter is a lesser choice compared to some of the existing class combo feats in my opinion. Make it fighter and rogue levels stack for etermining sneak attack damage only. Make the requirements Fighter level 3rd/ and 2d6 sneak attack. They can then take fighter levels and still gain those sneak attack dice. Theres enough ways to counter sneak attacks its not that big a deal. Also consider that a more traditional Fighter/Rogue build could still reach +16 BAB(all 4 attack recieved), +8d6 sneak attack, and have 3 fighter feats. Yes this feat could gain you +3 BAB, an average of 26 hitpoints, and an additional +2d6 sneak attack damage. Pretty minor there, as in the big picture the largest of the gains is an addition 6 fighter feats. but..... compared to a traditional 16 Rog/4 Fig, the feat also ends up costing you 76 skill points, improved uncany dodge, +4 worth of trap sense, and 2 rogue special abilities. Those 2 rogue special abilities are a pretty big loss(improved evasion anyone? how about 2 STR damage on every sneak attack?). Also im pretty certain only your rogue levels count for overcomming uncanny dodge on an opponent, that could cost you a great bit aswell when trying to flank for those sneak attacks. So its not really as powerful as it seems when you look at what its really gaining and loosing over what the 2 classes did together before the feat. Is it powerful? absolutely. Is it game breaking? Hardly. Id still take a build with the before mentioned daring outlaw over the fighter build. More skill points, big dodge bonus, an intelligence bonus to daamge that goes ever so sweetly with the rogue skill, better saves over all. A daring Outlaw with a spiked chain is a mad, scary, thought. Hehe, I made a full rogue like that, it was a fun thing, DM kept getting ****** that he kept provoking from the rogue 10 feet away, on a side note, as a DM I'd never allow it, but you can take the variant fighter and gain sneak attack, and with the feat you proposed, you could get something like 18d6 sneak attack. have I missed some official errata that limits skirmish to a single attack each round, the ability text clearly states it applies to all made during the scouts turn. Nope, you're correct, the main difference is that some people think it's 'broken' and only allow it once per round.
Twylyght 06-23-07, 01:36 PM	Nope, you're correct, the main difference is that some people think it's 'broken' and only allow it once per round. Considering what a rogue can do standing still, and considering the hoops you have to jump through to get multiple attacks while moving that much I can't see the issue. The only combo I can think of that comes close to really breaking this would involve 10 levels of dervish, and that would cost you half your skirmish damage potential anyway. Also since skirimish gets virtually the same restrictions of precision damage, is nullified completely if you cant move, AND tops off several dice behind sneak attack I dont think its a concern. Swift Ambusher might get a little bit up there, you gain 5d6 skirmish, but lose 2d6 sneak attack. So that only gains you another 3d6 over a pure rogue on a hit that qualifys for both skirmish and sneak attack. a whole average of 10.5 a hit. Considering the near endless, and sometime quite simple, ways of countering precision damage I dont think you have to worry to much. Side note: Casting, or driniking a potion of, blur is an quick and easy way to make your self immune to sneak attacks and skirmishes for a few minutes.
Daeva 06-25-07, 03:28 AM	i happen to think full sneak attack is worth a bit more than 1 BAB and a feat on a class that gets 11 bonus ones ><
sleepydeath 06-25-07, 06:26 AM	Reminds me on a char that I have made: Monk 2/Psychic Rogue 18 with Carmendine Monk (Int instead of Wis for Monkish stuff, +2 lvls when determing speed, dmg and AC) and the feat from secrets of sarlona that allows to stack monk lvls with a psionic class when you determine flurry of blows, unarmed dmg and AC :) full flurry of blows progression with 7d6 sneak attack, nice skill points and all the rogue stuff + psionic powers. nice power combo: hustle, dimension door as move action, get a free attack due to sun school feat (stun the opponent) and then full attack him with flurry of blows, if you are allowed to use the Expert Tactician feat from Sword and Fist you get another free attack :monk: :cool: with Ki Strap and feats from Quintessencial Monk you can get your stunning fist DC to about 35-40 and you may force the target to make a will save instead of fort. @topic well maybe its not what you look for but may help. there is a feat called craven. It has sneak attack as prequ. and gives you 1 bonus sneak attack dmg per lvl which equals ~5 1/2 d6 sneak attack dmg at lvl 20 (20 bonus sneak attack dmg). Dont know in what book that was (I have too much books :( )