Feat for Paladins/Clerics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat for Paladins/Clerics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arturius1
03-29-07, 08:34 PM For paladins and clerics, strength is not the most important stat, so its usually second or even third highest out of the six. The two feats that change the primary attack ability (Weapon Finesse and Intuitive Attack) only work on simple weapons, so aren't that helpful. So I think a new feat, specifically tailored for clerics and paladins is necesary. Here it is:

Divine Strike [Divine]
Prerequisite:BaB +3, Turn or Rebuke Undead ability.
Benefit:As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to use your Charisma bonus for melee attack rolls instead of your Strength bonus for 1 full round. Resolve damage normally.

Not attached to the name. Comments? Criticism?
kalstrand
03-29-07, 08:42 PM Very similar to Divine Might which will allow you to spend a Turn Undead attempt to add Cha to damage for 1 round.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-29-07, 08:42 PM Umm, WF works on any light weapon and rapiers (and spiked chains and thinblades if you want to spend another feat). Paladins get an equivalent weapon to a longsword in the rapier automatically, although clerics have to step down to a light mace for one less damage. I don't see the problem.

And second, Paladins already have an ability that helps them attack using their Cha. Its called Smite Evil.
Arturius1
03-29-07, 08:51 PM And second, Paladins already have an ability that helps them attack using their Cha. Its called Smite Evil.

Yeah, because you only make one or two attacks per day. Oh wait, you don't!
I have a paladin with only 15 strength, but 30 charisma and uses a greatsword. I'm sure he's not the only paladin out there using something other than a light weapon or rapier.
The_Shaman
03-30-07, 09:47 AM For paladins and clerics, strength is not the most important stat, so its usually second or even third highest out of the six. The two feats that change the primary attack ability (Weapon Finesse and Intuitive Attack) only work on simple weapons, so aren't that helpful. So I think a new feat, specifically tailored for clerics and paladins is necesary. Here it is:

Divine Strike [Divine]
Prerequisite:BaB +3, Turn or Rebuke Undead ability.
Benefit:As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to use your Charisma bonus for melee attack rolls instead of your Strength bonus for 1 full round. Resolve damage normally.

Not attached to the name. Comments? Criticism?

It seems a bit weak, imo. Perhaps a version of Divine might that requires weapon finesse instead of power attack, and has the bonus damage as half precision damage, half holy/unholy?
Arturius1
03-30-07, 10:32 AM Then that's a completely different feat. This is about hitting, not damage.
RobbyPants
03-30-07, 12:39 PM Well, for clerics, I'd say Intuitive Strike is a good feat because clerics cast using Wis, and they are only proficient with simple weapons.

As for paladins, I can see wanting a better feat, but personally, I'd rank Str and Cha about even as "most important stat", thus the need for a Cha-to-hit feat wouldn't be as useful for any paladins that I would make.

As it's written, I think the feat is fairly weak. It might be better if you allowed the user to add their Cha mod to hit in addition to their Str mod, on a per/use basis (like you've already written up). If it seems too potent, but might be better balanced by using two turn undead attempts.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-30-07, 02:24 PM Yeah, because you only make one or two attacks per day. Oh wait, you don't!
I have a paladin with only 15 strength, but 30 charisma and uses a greatsword. I'm sure he's not the only paladin out there using something other than a light weapon or rapier.
A couple of problems. One, your insane Cha has skewed your idea of what a paladin should do with turning attempts. You aren't supposed to have a lot of them. At the point where a Paladin could get 30 in a stat, you should have 4 or more Smites per Day, and plenty of chances to take Extra Smiting. Nevermind the fact that your screwed up stats deny you Str, which should be at least 20 (and would be if you weren't twinking your Cha). Extra Smiting would give a normal paladin just as many extra swings as your feat would, since he only has a couple of turns in the first place.

And why are you bothering with a Greatsword if you have basically dumped Str? A rapier would give you essentially the same absolute damage. That +1 damage from the extra 1/2 Str ain't doing you any good.
Arturius1
03-30-07, 09:05 PM My strength is "screwed up" because I don't have the money to afford a belt of ogre's strength (or is it giant's strength, I can never remember). I do, however, have a cloak of charisma +6. And I have 6 smites per day: 2 normal, 4 evil dragon. The reason I have a greatsword is because I also have Power Attack. I may not have a high attack roll, but one or two from it to PA and it's useful. As far as turning attempts go, I gain just as many as a cleric. Probably more since charisma is more important for a paladin than cleric.
Extra Smiting would only make it so I'd have 8 smites per day, and that's only against evil/dragons. A paladin doesn't always fight evil, and I'd have 13 uses of the feat (for a total of 52 attacks).
I considered making it a bonus rather than a substitution, but Divine Might works only if you actually hit it. Divine Strike (not liking the name now that I think about it) makes it so you're more likely to hit to do damage in the first place, so I think letting strength into it would make it so you seldom ever miss.

EDIT: To those that haven't noticed, I'm trying to use this on a paladin I play. :D
ClementWillowbreaker
03-30-07, 09:36 PM EDIT: To those that haven't noticed, I'm trying to use this on a paladin I play. :D
Which is the first step towards making completely cheesy feats. You wasted your money on +6 Cha item when you could have gotten +4 Str and Cha (and 4,000gp left over) instead. It was your choice to make your attack bonus is not up to par for Power Attack. No pity factor for poor paladins in this case.
Roivas
03-30-07, 09:45 PM Why not take the feat from exaulted deads that lets you swap out wisdom for str when attacking? This might not work too well for paladins, but solves the cleric's problem. Also a paladin's stat spread commonly will be Cha, Str, Con, Wis, Int, Dex. Strength is the gift that keeps on giving, while Constitution will make sure you don't have to waste actions touching yourself every few rounds. So I really don't see why weapon finesse would even be an artactive option for the average paladin.
Of course a monk/paladin would have an even harder time keeping his abilties in harmony. And not all straight pallys need to have their stats the way I've presented them I've just stating how I normally see them break up.
Since when do paladins have trouble hitting their enemies anyways? That sounds like the wizard's problem.
Arturius1
03-30-07, 10:06 PM Which is the first step towards making completely cheesy feats. You wasted your money on +6 Cha item when you could have gotten +4 Str and Cha (and 4,000gp left over) instead. It was your choice to make your attack bonus is not up to par for Power Attack. No pity factor for poor paladins in this case.

Did anyone mention needing pity? And if I go by your advice, my strength is 19 and my charisma is 28. Charisma is still very much higher and would allow me to hit easier using that than strength.
The paladin in question has abilities spread as Cha, Wis, Con, Str, Int, Dex. The reason cha and wis are set higher is because when the group first started, there was no cleric which made the paladin the primary healer. Paladins have a tough time hitting when they don't get the bonuses to hit that a barbarian or fighter gets. My paladin has (without smiting) a +22 to hit at level 19. Using this feat he'd have a +30.
All this is beside the point since it is neither commenting or criticising the feat.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-31-07, 11:43 AM Actually, it is completely on-topic, because it attacks your supposed motivation for the feat. You chose to make a combat-tertiary paladin. And the fact that your inherent Cha is that much higher only proves that you have made long-term and repeated decisions to focus on Cha and spellcasting in place of combat ability. Wizards don't get a feat that gives them the +10 BAB they missed because they weren't a ranger. Your character's combat failings are far beyond the scope of a feat to fix. Hence you designing a feat that is twice as powerful as Divine Might (+1 to hit = +2 damage is a basic design rule).

Instead, take the existing divine feats that let you use your turning attempts to protect your party, since you are the cleric.
Arturius1
03-31-07, 12:25 PM We have a cleric now. I thought my previous post suggested that, but not clearly it seems.
But let's take a look at these divine feats, eh? Divine Might: if I were the strength-based paladin you think I should be, Divine Might wouldn't help a great deal. I'm not, and it would, but I'm more concerned with hitting. Divine Armor: if I were a barbarian, I'd already have the DR 5/- that this grants, but I'm not. I'm a charisma-based paladin. You see where I'm going with this? I focus more on one stat, so I'm going to take feats that reflect that.
Oh, and wizards do get something like that: True Strike. First level spell.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-31-07, 02:59 PM Yep, a first level spell that wastes a round and involves abiding by the restrictions of arcane casting. Now, what are the limits of your proposed feat besides the common, "you need a crazy Int/Cha score to use this a bunch of times a day"?

No matter how much you wiggle, you aren't changing the fact that you want to give double an existing feat's benefits to custom-fix your character.

Oh, and Divine Might would help a stronger paladin- he would have a decent attack bonus to start with, and could spend a turn so he could Power Attack for a bit less that round and still get the same damage per hit.
Arturius1
04-01-07, 12:11 AM So it's perfectly fine that the strength-based paladin get damage in place of not having to use power attack, but not fine for a charisma-based paladin to get attack in place of not using a lower stat?
And that "you need a crazy Int/Cha score to use this a bunch of times a day" works with all the divine feats where turn undead is invovled (although I don't understand where the int part comes from). I still don't get why you're so against this feat.
Btw, what feat's benefit is getting doubled? If you're refering to Smite Evil, that's a class ability. And before you get all high and mighty again, look up a feat in Tome of Battle called Avenging Strike. You get a bonus to attack and damage equal to charisma against evil outsiders, usable a number of times equal to your charisma modifier. I'm not asking for a bonus, but a replacement. I'm not asking for damage, just attack. And in place of those extras, I'd be able to use it regardless of alignment or type. Is that so broken?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arturius1 03-29-07, 08:34 PM	For paladins and clerics, strength is not the most important stat, so its usually second or even third highest out of the six. The two feats that change the primary attack ability (Weapon Finesse and Intuitive Attack) only work on simple weapons, so aren't that helpful. So I think a new feat, specifically tailored for clerics and paladins is necesary. Here it is: Divine Strike [Divine] Prerequisite:BaB +3, Turn or Rebuke Undead ability. Benefit:As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to use your Charisma bonus for melee attack rolls instead of your Strength bonus for 1 full round. Resolve damage normally. Not attached to the name. Comments? Criticism?
kalstrand 03-29-07, 08:42 PM	Very similar to Divine Might which will allow you to spend a Turn Undead attempt to add Cha to damage for 1 round.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-29-07, 08:42 PM	Umm, WF works on any light weapon and rapiers (and spiked chains and thinblades if you want to spend another feat). Paladins get an equivalent weapon to a longsword in the rapier automatically, although clerics have to step down to a light mace for one less damage. I don't see the problem. And second, Paladins already have an ability that helps them attack using their Cha. Its called Smite Evil.
Arturius1 03-29-07, 08:51 PM	And second, Paladins already have an ability that helps them attack using their Cha. Its called Smite Evil. Yeah, because you only make one or two attacks per day. Oh wait, you don't! I have a paladin with only 15 strength, but 30 charisma and uses a greatsword. I'm sure he's not the only paladin out there using something other than a light weapon or rapier.
The_Shaman 03-30-07, 09:47 AM	For paladins and clerics, strength is not the most important stat, so its usually second or even third highest out of the six. The two feats that change the primary attack ability (Weapon Finesse and Intuitive Attack) only work on simple weapons, so aren't that helpful. So I think a new feat, specifically tailored for clerics and paladins is necesary. Here it is: Divine Strike [Divine] Prerequisite:BaB +3, Turn or Rebuke Undead ability. Benefit:As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to use your Charisma bonus for melee attack rolls instead of your Strength bonus for 1 full round. Resolve damage normally. Not attached to the name. Comments? Criticism? It seems a bit weak, imo. Perhaps a version of Divine might that requires weapon finesse instead of power attack, and has the bonus damage as half precision damage, half holy/unholy?
Arturius1 03-30-07, 10:32 AM	Then that's a completely different feat. This is about hitting, not damage.
RobbyPants 03-30-07, 12:39 PM	Well, for clerics, I'd say Intuitive Strike is a good feat because clerics cast using Wis, and they are only proficient with simple weapons. As for paladins, I can see wanting a better feat, but personally, I'd rank Str and Cha about even as "most important stat", thus the need for a Cha-to-hit feat wouldn't be as useful for any paladins that I would make. As it's written, I think the feat is fairly weak. It might be better if you allowed the user to add their Cha mod to hit in addition to their Str mod, on a per/use basis (like you've already written up). If it seems too potent, but might be better balanced by using two turn undead attempts.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-30-07, 02:24 PM	Yeah, because you only make one or two attacks per day. Oh wait, you don't! I have a paladin with only 15 strength, but 30 charisma and uses a greatsword. I'm sure he's not the only paladin out there using something other than a light weapon or rapier. A couple of problems. One, your insane Cha has skewed your idea of what a paladin should do with turning attempts. You aren't supposed to have a lot of them. At the point where a Paladin could get 30 in a stat, you should have 4 or more Smites per Day, and plenty of chances to take Extra Smiting. Nevermind the fact that your screwed up stats deny you Str, which should be at least 20 (and would be if you weren't twinking your Cha). Extra Smiting would give a normal paladin just as many extra swings as your feat would, since he only has a couple of turns in the first place. And why are you bothering with a Greatsword if you have basically dumped Str? A rapier would give you essentially the same absolute damage. That +1 damage from the extra 1/2 Str ain't doing you any good.
Arturius1 03-30-07, 09:05 PM	My strength is "screwed up" because I don't have the money to afford a belt of ogre's strength (or is it giant's strength, I can never remember). I do, however, have a cloak of charisma +6. And I have 6 smites per day: 2 normal, 4 evil dragon. The reason I have a greatsword is because I also have Power Attack. I may not have a high attack roll, but one or two from it to PA and it's useful. As far as turning attempts go, I gain just as many as a cleric. Probably more since charisma is more important for a paladin than cleric. Extra Smiting would only make it so I'd have 8 smites per day, and that's only against evil/dragons. A paladin doesn't always fight evil, and I'd have 13 uses of the feat (for a total of 52 attacks). I considered making it a bonus rather than a substitution, but Divine Might works only if you actually hit it. Divine Strike (not liking the name now that I think about it) makes it so you're more likely to hit to do damage in the first place, so I think letting strength into it would make it so you seldom ever miss. EDIT: To those that haven't noticed, I'm trying to use this on a paladin I play. :D
ClementWillowbreaker 03-30-07, 09:36 PM	EDIT: To those that haven't noticed, I'm trying to use this on a paladin I play. :D Which is the first step towards making completely cheesy feats. You wasted your money on +6 Cha item when you could have gotten +4 Str and Cha (and 4,000gp left over) instead. It was your choice to make your attack bonus is not up to par for Power Attack. No pity factor for poor paladins in this case.
Roivas 03-30-07, 09:45 PM	Why not take the feat from exaulted deads that lets you swap out wisdom for str when attacking? This might not work too well for paladins, but solves the cleric's problem. Also a paladin's stat spread commonly will be Cha, Str, Con, Wis, Int, Dex. Strength is the gift that keeps on giving, while Constitution will make sure you don't have to waste actions touching yourself every few rounds. So I really don't see why weapon finesse would even be an artactive option for the average paladin. Of course a monk/paladin would have an even harder time keeping his abilties in harmony. And not all straight pallys need to have their stats the way I've presented them I've just stating how I normally see them break up. Since when do paladins have trouble hitting their enemies anyways? That sounds like the wizard's problem.
Arturius1 03-30-07, 10:06 PM	Which is the first step towards making completely cheesy feats. You wasted your money on +6 Cha item when you could have gotten +4 Str and Cha (and 4,000gp left over) instead. It was your choice to make your attack bonus is not up to par for Power Attack. No pity factor for poor paladins in this case. Did anyone mention needing pity? And if I go by your advice, my strength is 19 and my charisma is 28. Charisma is still very much higher and would allow me to hit easier using that than strength. The paladin in question has abilities spread as Cha, Wis, Con, Str, Int, Dex. The reason cha and wis are set higher is because when the group first started, there was no cleric which made the paladin the primary healer. Paladins have a tough time hitting when they don't get the bonuses to hit that a barbarian or fighter gets. My paladin has (without smiting) a +22 to hit at level 19. Using this feat he'd have a +30. All this is beside the point since it is neither commenting or criticising the feat.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-07, 11:43 AM	Actually, it is completely on-topic, because it attacks your supposed motivation for the feat. You chose to make a combat-tertiary paladin. And the fact that your inherent Cha is that much higher only proves that you have made long-term and repeated decisions to focus on Cha and spellcasting in place of combat ability. Wizards don't get a feat that gives them the +10 BAB they missed because they weren't a ranger. Your character's combat failings are far beyond the scope of a feat to fix. Hence you designing a feat that is twice as powerful as Divine Might (+1 to hit = +2 damage is a basic design rule). Instead, take the existing divine feats that let you use your turning attempts to protect your party, since you are the cleric.
Arturius1 03-31-07, 12:25 PM	We have a cleric now. I thought my previous post suggested that, but not clearly it seems. But let's take a look at these divine feats, eh? Divine Might: if I were the strength-based paladin you think I should be, Divine Might wouldn't help a great deal. I'm not, and it would, but I'm more concerned with hitting. Divine Armor: if I were a barbarian, I'd already have the DR 5/- that this grants, but I'm not. I'm a charisma-based paladin. You see where I'm going with this? I focus more on one stat, so I'm going to take feats that reflect that. Oh, and wizards do get something like that: True Strike. First level spell.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-07, 02:59 PM	Yep, a first level spell that wastes a round and involves abiding by the restrictions of arcane casting. Now, what are the limits of your proposed feat besides the common, "you need a crazy Int/Cha score to use this a bunch of times a day"? No matter how much you wiggle, you aren't changing the fact that you want to give double an existing feat's benefits to custom-fix your character. Oh, and Divine Might would help a stronger paladin- he would have a decent attack bonus to start with, and could spend a turn so he could Power Attack for a bit less that round and still get the same damage per hit.
Arturius1 04-01-07, 12:11 AM	So it's perfectly fine that the strength-based paladin get damage in place of not having to use power attack, but not fine for a charisma-based paladin to get attack in place of not using a lower stat? And that "you need a crazy Int/Cha score to use this a bunch of times a day" works with all the divine feats where turn undead is invovled (although I don't understand where the int part comes from). I still don't get why you're so against this feat. Btw, what feat's benefit is getting doubled? If you're refering to Smite Evil, that's a class ability. And before you get all high and mighty again, look up a feat in Tome of Battle called Avenging Strike. You get a bonus to attack and damage equal to charisma against evil outsiders, usable a number of times equal to your charisma modifier. I'm not asking for a bonus, but a replacement. I'm not asking for damage, just attack. And in place of those extras, I'd be able to use it regardless of alignment or type. Is that so broken?