Feat Idea - Retrain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat Idea - Retrain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
navar100
06-23-07, 10:57 AM Retrain

Replace a feat known with another one.

Prerequisite: Character level 6+

Benefit: Choose a feat you have that is not a prerequisite of another feat you have nor of a prestige class you have, and not this one. You no longer have that feat. Choose two feats for which you currently meet the prerequisites, though one feat may be the prerequisite of the other. When you gain a level, you get those feats.

Special: You may not use Retrain to replace a specifically named feat gained as a class/prestige class ability.

Special: You may use Retrain to replace a bonus feat chosen from a list of feats gained as a class/prestige class ability but you can only choose another feat from that bonus list to replace. That bonus feat may be a prerequisite of the second feat chosen that's not on the list but not the reverse.

Special: You may take Retrain more than once with DM permission.

Commentary: A DM may be willing to let a player change a feat anyway, without need of this feat, such as if it's a new player who made an error or even an experienced player who finds that the character is going into a different direction than originally thought. The thought here is even if a DM is less inclined to do so but not outright against the idea, this is a mechanical way of doing it. The player pays for the privilege of changing a feat by playing a level with one less feat.

If creating a character from scratch starting at 6th level or above, this feat would not apply for that character creation.
Lucas Blackstone
06-23-07, 11:01 AM There's already rules for this, I think it's in Unearthed Arcana but can't recall for sure.
LoreleiIsildae
06-23-07, 11:02 AM Actually it's in the PHB II.
navar100
06-23-07, 12:05 PM I know. This is just another way.
Kouk
06-23-07, 12:12 PM Ok I guess.
Nobi
06-23-07, 12:22 PM You get two feats for getting rid of one? That's not the way D&D works. At best, one-for-one, and at worst, give up a feat and some skill points.
navar100
06-23-07, 02:09 PM You get two feats for getting rid of one? That's not the way D&D works. At best, one-for-one, and at worst, give up a feat and some skill points.

No, it's two feats for two feats - the feat you are replacing and the feat slot for Retrain. In essence, for the ability to change one feat, for one level of play you are at two less effective feats than normal. You lose the use of the feat you want to replace and you have Retrain which doesn't give you anything effective for character play.

Take a non-human rogue.

Level 1: Improved Initiative
Level 3: Weapon Focus Rapier
Level 6: Retrain - gets rid of Weapon Focus, chooses Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw.

At this play of level 6, the rogue has only one effective feat: Improved Initiative. He does not have Weapon Focus, he does not have Weapon Finesse, he does not have Quick Draw. Retrain gives him nothing else.

Level 7: Now the rogue benefits from Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw. The character is exactly the same had he chosen originally:

Level 1: Improved Initiative
Level 3: Weapon Finesse
Level 6: Quickdraw
Level 7: no feat granted
LoreleiIsildae
06-23-07, 05:53 PM I know. This is just another way.

I'm having trouble seeing how this makes sense versus the option in the PHB II. You take the feat Retrain to replace a previously taken feat, and then Retrain automatically becomes the feat you would have taken, at your next level? Seems pretty redundant to me, unless I'm missing something. The PHB II feat retraining option, simply put, swaps out one feat for another, as long as the prerequisites for that feat are met. The only real difference I'm seeing is that, per your example, at level 6 by taking Retrain you are effectively losing two feats until level 7, feats that will hopefully be beneficial.
Kouk
06-23-07, 08:03 PM His idea is, "I have a feat I do not like. Next time I get to a level where I can gain another feat, I will be able to swap out the old one and also pick a new one. To do this I will take a "special" feat that allows me to replace an old one while also picking a new one."

The only real purpose is to limit feat swaps to once every 3 levels.
LoreleiIsildae
06-24-07, 07:47 AM His idea is, "I have a feat I do not like. Next time I get to a level where I can gain another feat, I will be able to swap out the old one and also pick a new one. To do this I will take a "special" feat that allows me to replace an old one while also picking a new one."

The only real purpose is to limit feat swaps to once every 3 levels.

I guess I can see that, yet I don't think many Dms would allow too many feat swaps anyway.
Orenmir
06-24-07, 11:09 PM The PHB II feat retraining option, simply put, swaps out one feat for another, as long as the prerequisites for that feat are met.

Is that all? I don't own the PHB2, so I can't look it up. If anyone wants to swap a feat, it can be done at anytime? You just have to have the prerequisite (which is already a documented rule regarding feats)? That seems way too easy. There must be more to it... Once per level? Once per 3 levels? XP cost? GP cost?
Salla
06-24-07, 11:15 PM Is that all? I don't own the PHB2, so I can't look it up. If anyone wants to swap a feat, it can be done at anytime? You just have to have the prerequisite (which is already a documented rule regarding feats)? That seems way too easy. There must be more to it... Once per level? Once per 3 levels? XP cost? GP cost?

Only one feat per level, IIRC. No other costs involved, though can also shuffle, IIRC, ability scores, class features, and skill points.
runestar
06-24-07, 11:22 PM So what happens if I use psychic reformation to swap out retrain? Do I get 2 new feats for the price of 1?:P

And just as a teaser to how potentially game breaking this ability could be, consider the following...
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

Elves effectively get 5 bonus feats as per character creation. If I were a fighter with martial weapon prof anyways, why not take said feat and swap those feats out? It basically works out to 5 free feats.:D
navar100
06-25-07, 12:45 AM So what happens if I use psychic reformation to swap out retrain? Do I get 2 new feats for the price of 1?:P

And just as a teaser to how potentially game breaking this ability could be, consider the following...

Elves effectively get 5 bonus feats as per character creation. If I were a fighter with martial weapon prof anyways, why not take said feat and swap those feats out? It basically works out to 5 free feats.:D

1) The problem is Psychic Reformation I think. :P Solution: Errata the feat such that the Retrain feat is considered replaced.

The DM can also be counter abusive. You get rid of Retrain? Ok, since you no longer have that feat, you no longer have the two feats you picked and you get back the feat you originally swapped away.

2) Errata for clarification to include racial specifically named feats as I do class and prestige class specifically named free feats which cannot benefit from Retrain.
risner
06-25-07, 02:27 AM Choose a feat you have ... You no longer have that feat. Choose two feats for which you currently meet the prerequisites,

In a word, no. This is not balanced nor should it ever be allowed.

Two massive problems:
1) One feat for Two feats is not fair, balanced, or consistent.
2) The feat you gain, you must qualify for that feat at the same level of the feat you are replacing. Example: 20th level replacing 1st level feat, the new feat must be able to be qualified using your 1st level you took; if 20th fighter, a 1st level Fighter must be able to qualify.

Look at the PHB II rules on retraining feats. They are balanced unlike this proposed feat which is decidedly not balanced.
Kouk
06-25-07, 03:31 AM The PHB2 "retraining" is a few suggested guidelines on how you could have a player change his character. At the simplest, just let them switch stuff whenever they feel like. At the most complicated, they have to go on a quest to do it.
navar100
06-26-07, 04:27 AM In a word, no. This is not balanced nor should it ever be allowed.

Two massive problems:
1) One feat for Two feats is not fair, balanced, or consistent.
2) The feat you gain, you must qualify for that feat at the same level of the feat you are replacing. Example: 20th level replacing 1st level feat, the new feat must be able to be qualified using your 1st level you took; if 20th fighter, a 1st level Fighter must be able to qualify.

Look at the PHB II rules on retraining feats. They are balanced unlike this proposed feat which is decidedly not balanced.

1) It's not one feat for feats; it's two feats for two feats as I've mentioned. You give up the feat you want to swap a way (that's one) and spend a feat on Retrain which doesn't do anything accept let you no longer have that previous feat (that's two.) Next level you get two feats back.

2) You can't take Retrain at 20th level because you don't get a feat at 20th level. That's a nitpick. Let's pretend you said 18th level. At 1st level, some hypothetical wizard took Toughness at 1st level. For 17 levels of play he has Toughness and three hit points more than normal. At 18th level, he really, really wants Chain Spell and Sudden Maximize. He takes Retrain and swaps out Toughness. He loses the 3 hit points. At this point in time he does not have Toughness, he does not have Chain Spell, he does not have Sudden Maximize, but he does have Retrain which now does absolutely nothing for his character. At 19th level he now has Chain Spell and now has has Sudden Maximize, still does not have Toughness, and still has Retrain which does absolutely nothing (or not have it depending on using the errata to avoid Psychic Reformation problems).

Summary, for 17 levels of play he had a particular feat taken at 1st level, is effectively at two less feats for one level of play at 18th level, then at 19th level he gets back those two feats of which one feat he was able to get at 1st level is no longer there and one feat he couldn't have taken at 1st level is now there. Big deal. If Toughness was a prerequisite of some other Feat the character had or for a Prestige Class he had, he wouldn't have been able to get rid of it.

Note: If said 19th level wizard character is being created immediately as a 19th level character from the start, then Retraining should not be used during that process. That could be errata for any character creation before play. Playing a level with two less feats is on purpose part of the cost.
Orenmir
06-26-07, 11:16 AM can also shuffle, IIRC, ability scores, class features, and skill points.

What!!??!?!? Really?! I can shuffle my ability score points around? And skill points? And, how, exactly, do I shuffle class features around?

I'm a little confused, shocked, and secretly excited -- especially about dumping 10 points of Cha into Str next time I level up!! :mymy:
Salla
06-26-07, 11:37 AM What!!??!?!? Really?! I can shuffle my ability score points around? And skill points? And, how, exactly, do I shuffle class features around?

I'm a little confused, shocked, and secretly excited -- especially about dumping 10 points of Cha into Str next time I level up!! :mymy:

You can only shuffle, I believe, 4 skill points or stat points (as defined by point buy) per level, if I recall correctly (am away from books). Of course, with your example, if your character was STR based and not CHA based, you should have put your points into STR and not CHA at creation. :)

Shuffing class features is things like shifting domains (among the same deity) or changing your Ranger's favored enemy when you realize that the DM simply doesn't use what you picked.

PHBII is an excellent book. I suggest picking it up for more reasons than just retraining.
risner
06-26-07, 11:39 AM What!!??!?!? Really?! I can shuffle my ability score points around? And skill points? And, how, exactly, do I shuffle class features around?

I'm a little confused, shocked, and secretly excited -- especially about dumping 10 points of Cha into Str next time I level up!! :mymy:

Check out PHB II, but remember it is balanced. So you wouldn't chuck 10 CHA, since you can't go below 8 and if you did say by taking your CHA 18 to CHA 8 might bring your STR 18 to STR 20.
Orenmir
06-26-07, 02:34 PM taking your CHA 18 to CHA 8 might bring your STR 18 to STR 20.

So, 10 points of Cha equals 2 points of Str? If I went from 18 Str down to 16, could I then go Cha 12 up to 22?

Man, I gotta get my hands on PHB2! :eek:
risner
06-26-07, 03:03 PM So, 10 points of Cha equals 2 points of Str? If I went from 18 Str down to 16, could I then go Cha 12 up to 22?

Get PHB II, or look at the DMG point buy system. They are very similar. If you go from 10 to 9, you gain 1 point. It would take many more than 1 point to bump 18 to 19, etc. The trade isn't always 1 for one. For instance if you had an 18 in one score and 10 in another, you would end up with 10 in the one that had 18 and 14 or 15 or something similar in the one that had 10.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
navar100 06-23-07, 10:57 AM	Retrain Replace a feat known with another one. Prerequisite: Character level 6+ Benefit: Choose a feat you have that is not a prerequisite of another feat you have nor of a prestige class you have, and not this one. You no longer have that feat. Choose two feats for which you currently meet the prerequisites, though one feat may be the prerequisite of the other. When you gain a level, you get those feats. Special: You may not use Retrain to replace a specifically named feat gained as a class/prestige class ability. Special: You may use Retrain to replace a bonus feat chosen from a list of feats gained as a class/prestige class ability but you can only choose another feat from that bonus list to replace. That bonus feat may be a prerequisite of the second feat chosen that's not on the list but not the reverse. Special: You may take Retrain more than once with DM permission. Commentary: A DM may be willing to let a player change a feat anyway, without need of this feat, such as if it's a new player who made an error or even an experienced player who finds that the character is going into a different direction than originally thought. The thought here is even if a DM is less inclined to do so but not outright against the idea, this is a mechanical way of doing it. The player pays for the privilege of changing a feat by playing a level with one less feat. If creating a character from scratch starting at 6th level or above, this feat would not apply for that character creation.
Lucas Blackstone 06-23-07, 11:01 AM	There's already rules for this, I think it's in Unearthed Arcana but can't recall for sure.
LoreleiIsildae 06-23-07, 11:02 AM	Actually it's in the PHB II.
navar100 06-23-07, 12:05 PM	I know. This is just another way.
Kouk 06-23-07, 12:12 PM	Ok I guess.
Nobi 06-23-07, 12:22 PM	You get two feats for getting rid of one? That's not the way D&D works. At best, one-for-one, and at worst, give up a feat and some skill points.
navar100 06-23-07, 02:09 PM	You get two feats for getting rid of one? That's not the way D&D works. At best, one-for-one, and at worst, give up a feat and some skill points. No, it's two feats for two feats - the feat you are replacing and the feat slot for Retrain. In essence, for the ability to change one feat, for one level of play you are at two less effective feats than normal. You lose the use of the feat you want to replace and you have Retrain which doesn't give you anything effective for character play. Take a non-human rogue. Level 1: Improved Initiative Level 3: Weapon Focus Rapier Level 6: Retrain - gets rid of Weapon Focus, chooses Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw. At this play of level 6, the rogue has only one effective feat: Improved Initiative. He does not have Weapon Focus, he does not have Weapon Finesse, he does not have Quick Draw. Retrain gives him nothing else. Level 7: Now the rogue benefits from Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw. The character is exactly the same had he chosen originally: Level 1: Improved Initiative Level 3: Weapon Finesse Level 6: Quickdraw Level 7: no feat granted
LoreleiIsildae 06-23-07, 05:53 PM	I know. This is just another way. I'm having trouble seeing how this makes sense versus the option in the PHB II. You take the feat Retrain to replace a previously taken feat, and then Retrain automatically becomes the feat you would have taken, at your next level? Seems pretty redundant to me, unless I'm missing something. The PHB II feat retraining option, simply put, swaps out one feat for another, as long as the prerequisites for that feat are met. The only real difference I'm seeing is that, per your example, at level 6 by taking Retrain you are effectively losing two feats until level 7, feats that will hopefully be beneficial.
Kouk 06-23-07, 08:03 PM	His idea is, "I have a feat I do not like. Next time I get to a level where I can gain another feat, I will be able to swap out the old one and also pick a new one. To do this I will take a "special" feat that allows me to replace an old one while also picking a new one." The only real purpose is to limit feat swaps to once every 3 levels.
LoreleiIsildae 06-24-07, 07:47 AM	His idea is, "I have a feat I do not like. Next time I get to a level where I can gain another feat, I will be able to swap out the old one and also pick a new one. To do this I will take a "special" feat that allows me to replace an old one while also picking a new one." The only real purpose is to limit feat swaps to once every 3 levels. I guess I can see that, yet I don't think many Dms would allow too many feat swaps anyway.
Orenmir 06-24-07, 11:09 PM	The PHB II feat retraining option, simply put, swaps out one feat for another, as long as the prerequisites for that feat are met. Is that all? I don't own the PHB2, so I can't look it up. If anyone wants to swap a feat, it can be done at anytime? You just have to have the prerequisite (which is already a documented rule regarding feats)? That seems way too easy. There must be more to it... Once per level? Once per 3 levels? XP cost? GP cost?
Salla 06-24-07, 11:15 PM	Is that all? I don't own the PHB2, so I can't look it up. If anyone wants to swap a feat, it can be done at anytime? You just have to have the prerequisite (which is already a documented rule regarding feats)? That seems way too easy. There must be more to it... Once per level? Once per 3 levels? XP cost? GP cost? Only one feat per level, IIRC. No other costs involved, though can also shuffle, IIRC, ability scores, class features, and skill points.
runestar 06-24-07, 11:22 PM	So what happens if I use psychic reformation to swap out retrain? Do I get 2 new feats for the price of 1?:P And just as a teaser to how potentially game breaking this ability could be, consider the following... Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. Elves effectively get 5 bonus feats as per character creation. If I were a fighter with martial weapon prof anyways, why not take said feat and swap those feats out? It basically works out to 5 free feats.:D
navar100 06-25-07, 12:45 AM	So what happens if I use psychic reformation to swap out retrain? Do I get 2 new feats for the price of 1?:P And just as a teaser to how potentially game breaking this ability could be, consider the following... Elves effectively get 5 bonus feats as per character creation. If I were a fighter with martial weapon prof anyways, why not take said feat and swap those feats out? It basically works out to 5 free feats.:D 1) The problem is Psychic Reformation I think. :P Solution: Errata the feat such that the Retrain feat is considered replaced. The DM can also be counter abusive. You get rid of Retrain? Ok, since you no longer have that feat, you no longer have the two feats you picked and you get back the feat you originally swapped away. 2) Errata for clarification to include racial specifically named feats as I do class and prestige class specifically named free feats which cannot benefit from Retrain.
risner 06-25-07, 02:27 AM	Choose a feat you have ... You no longer have that feat. Choose two feats for which you currently meet the prerequisites, In a word, no. This is not balanced nor should it ever be allowed. Two massive problems: 1) One feat for Two feats is not fair, balanced, or consistent. 2) The feat you gain, you must qualify for that feat at the same level of the feat you are replacing. Example: 20th level replacing 1st level feat, the new feat must be able to be qualified using your 1st level you took; if 20th fighter, a 1st level Fighter must be able to qualify. Look at the PHB II rules on retraining feats. They are balanced unlike this proposed feat which is decidedly not balanced.
Kouk 06-25-07, 03:31 AM	The PHB2 "retraining" is a few suggested guidelines on how you could have a player change his character. At the simplest, just let them switch stuff whenever they feel like. At the most complicated, they have to go on a quest to do it.
navar100 06-26-07, 04:27 AM	In a word, no. This is not balanced nor should it ever be allowed. Two massive problems: 1) One feat for Two feats is not fair, balanced, or consistent. 2) The feat you gain, you must qualify for that feat at the same level of the feat you are replacing. Example: 20th level replacing 1st level feat, the new feat must be able to be qualified using your 1st level you took; if 20th fighter, a 1st level Fighter must be able to qualify. Look at the PHB II rules on retraining feats. They are balanced unlike this proposed feat which is decidedly not balanced. 1) It's not one feat for feats; it's two feats for two feats as I've mentioned. You give up the feat you want to swap a way (that's one) and spend a feat on Retrain which doesn't do anything accept let you no longer have that previous feat (that's two.) Next level you get two feats back. 2) You can't take Retrain at 20th level because you don't get a feat at 20th level. That's a nitpick. Let's pretend you said 18th level. At 1st level, some hypothetical wizard took Toughness at 1st level. For 17 levels of play he has Toughness and three hit points more than normal. At 18th level, he really, really wants Chain Spell and Sudden Maximize. He takes Retrain and swaps out Toughness. He loses the 3 hit points. At this point in time he does not have Toughness, he does not have Chain Spell, he does not have Sudden Maximize, but he does have Retrain which now does absolutely nothing for his character. At 19th level he now has Chain Spell and now has has Sudden Maximize, still does not have Toughness, and still has Retrain which does absolutely nothing (or not have it depending on using the errata to avoid Psychic Reformation problems). Summary, for 17 levels of play he had a particular feat taken at 1st level, is effectively at two less feats for one level of play at 18th level, then at 19th level he gets back those two feats of which one feat he was able to get at 1st level is no longer there and one feat he couldn't have taken at 1st level is now there. Big deal. If Toughness was a prerequisite of some other Feat the character had or for a Prestige Class he had, he wouldn't have been able to get rid of it. Note: If said 19th level wizard character is being created immediately as a 19th level character from the start, then Retraining should not be used during that process. That could be errata for any character creation before play. Playing a level with two less feats is on purpose part of the cost.
Orenmir 06-26-07, 11:16 AM	can also shuffle, IIRC, ability scores, class features, and skill points. What!!??!?!? Really?! I can shuffle my ability score points around? And skill points? And, how, exactly, do I shuffle class features around? I'm a little confused, shocked, and secretly excited -- especially about dumping 10 points of Cha into Str next time I level up!! :mymy:
Salla 06-26-07, 11:37 AM	What!!??!?!? Really?! I can shuffle my ability score points around? And skill points? And, how, exactly, do I shuffle class features around? I'm a little confused, shocked, and secretly excited -- especially about dumping 10 points of Cha into Str next time I level up!! :mymy: You can only shuffle, I believe, 4 skill points or stat points (as defined by point buy) per level, if I recall correctly (am away from books). Of course, with your example, if your character was STR based and not CHA based, you should have put your points into STR and not CHA at creation. :) Shuffing class features is things like shifting domains (among the same deity) or changing your Ranger's favored enemy when you realize that the DM simply doesn't use what you picked. PHBII is an excellent book. I suggest picking it up for more reasons than just retraining.
risner 06-26-07, 11:39 AM	What!!??!?!? Really?! I can shuffle my ability score points around? And skill points? And, how, exactly, do I shuffle class features around? I'm a little confused, shocked, and secretly excited -- especially about dumping 10 points of Cha into Str next time I level up!! :mymy: Check out PHB II, but remember it is balanced. So you wouldn't chuck 10 CHA, since you can't go below 8 and if you did say by taking your CHA 18 to CHA 8 might bring your STR 18 to STR 20.
Orenmir 06-26-07, 02:34 PM	taking your CHA 18 to CHA 8 might bring your STR 18 to STR 20. So, 10 points of Cha equals 2 points of Str? If I went from 18 Str down to 16, could I then go Cha 12 up to 22? Man, I gotta get my hands on PHB2! :eek:
risner 06-26-07, 03:03 PM	So, 10 points of Cha equals 2 points of Str? If I went from 18 Str down to 16, could I then go Cha 12 up to 22? Get PHB II, or look at the DMG point buy system. They are very similar. If you go from 10 to 9, you gain 1 point. It would take many more than 1 point to bump 18 to 19, etc. The trade isn't always 1 for one. For instance if you had an 18 in one score and 10 in another, you would end up with 10 in the one that had 18 and 14 or 15 or something similar in the one that had 10.