Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ToastedAmphibian 08-06-07, 08:50 PM	When does it matter if you qualify for a feat? Does it only matter when you gain the feat, or do you always have to meet the requierments when you want to use it? For example, a barbarian has power attack, and he gets hit by ray of enfeblment lowering his str to 12, can he still power attack if he wants to? If he cant still power attack, can he still take and gain the benifts of cleave, even though he cant technically power attack? What if he only originally had 13 str do to gloves of ogre strength? It seems liek you could always use a feat that you had, as monks as well as many other classes gain feats they dont qualify for, but can still use them. For example, say a medium dragon took the "Clever wrestling" feat, but latter gained enough HD to become a large creature. Would he still get the benifits of clever wrestling. Either way, woudl he be able to take the reaping mauler PrC?
Kouk 08-06-07, 11:56 PM	You can use (and take) feats only when you qualify for them, whether the qualification comes "naturally" or because of a permanent magical item (such as Gloves of Ogre Power). If the Barbarian's STR drops below the required amount, he still "knows" how to do Power Attack, he just is not able to perform it until his STR comes back up. Cleave is a good question, I would think he couldn't use it in that instance until his STR was also restored but I'm not sure. If you get a "free" feat from your class, and it specifically says you don't need the requirements, then you can use it. Usually when several different bonus feats are offered, it requires you be able to meet the prerequisites. Monks are just one of those exceptions. I think that the dragon in that instance is a bit out of luck; though there is probably nothing stopping him from Polymorphing himself to a smaller size (or otherwise shrinking), dragons do it all the time. I don't remember what the requirements are for Reaping Mauler, but if it only requires that you "know" the feat Clever Wrestling, it doesn't matter if you currently are unable to use it.
runestar 08-07-07, 12:05 AM	If he cant still power attack, can he still take and gain the benifts of cleave, even though he cant technically power attack? What if he only originally had 13 str do to gloves of ogre strength? You can't use cleave as well as it too has a prereq of 13str, in addition to power attack. Most overlook this as it is the same requirement as power attack, and if you can qualify for power attack, you typically qualify for cleave as well. But it is there. Hypothetically, if cleave did not have the str requirement, then yes, you could use it even if going to below 13str disables power attack, since you still have said feat, just that you cannot use it (and prereqs do not care if you can use said feat, just that you have it is enough).
Nephlite 08-07-07, 12:09 AM	When does it matter if you qualify for a feat? Does it only matter when you gain the feat, or do you always have to meet the requierments when you want to use it? For example, a barbarian has power attack, and he gets hit by ray of enfeblment lowering his str to 12, can he still power attack if he wants to? If he cant still power attack, can he still take and gain the benifts of cleave, even though he cant technically power attack? What if he only originally had 13 str do to gloves of ogre strength? Doesn't matter: Cleave requires 13 Str so losing Power attack is redunant: you still can't use cleave. You need both. It seems liek you could always use a feat that you had, as monks as well as many other classes gain feats they dont qualify for, but can still use them. For example, say a medium dragon took the "Clever wrestling" feat, but latter gained enough HD to become a large creature. Would he still get the benifits of clever wrestling. Either way, woudl he be able to take the reaping mauler PrC? Clever wresting requires you to be meduim? If not than you can still benefit. Does it only work on creatures larger? Than he must wresting with huge or larger.
BugHunter 08-07-07, 12:26 AM	You can use (and take) feats only when you qualify for them, whether the qualification comes "naturally" or because of a permanent magical item (such as Gloves of Ogre Power). If the Barbarian's STR drops below the required amount, he still "knows" how to do Power Attack, he just is not able to perform it until his STR comes back up. Cleave is a good question, I would think he couldn't use it in that instance until his STR was also restored but I'm not sure. I don't remember what the requirements are for Reaping Mauler, but if it only requires that you "know" the feat Clever Wrestling, it doesn't matter if you currently are unable to use it. You are correct with the qualifying for a feat. The use of cleave when the STR is too low, you are correct. Cleave can not be used since the requirements for cleave are no longer being meet. Reaping mauler only requires you to have the feat, it doesn't say you have to be able to use it.
Novacat 08-07-07, 04:10 AM	If you no longer qualify for a feat, you effectively lose all benefits of the feat, including using it as a prerequisite for other feats. Typically, this is a redundant loss, since most feats that require other feats, also include the other feats' requirements.
runestar 08-07-07, 09:59 AM	If you no longer qualify for a feat, you effectively lose all benefits of the feat, including using it as a prerequisite for other feats. Not true. A blackguard shouldn't suddenly lose all his class features when he is the subject of a ray of enfeeblement spell. You can't use the feat, but you still have the feat, thus it should continue counting as a prereq for other feats.:)
tarkin 08-07-07, 11:34 AM	runestar you are both wrong and confusing the matter with other issues. First, the confusion. There is a difference between Prestige classes and feats. That is, when you no longer qualify for a feat you lose the feat, but DIFFERENT things happen when you no longer qualify for a prestige class. They are not the same. Second: There are three distinct things that can happen: 1. Have the feat, but not be in a situation where it can be used. Here you do not have any loss and still qualify for things. Example: Having the feats Spring Attack and Whirlwind, but be wearing plate mail. Here, you may not use Spring Attack, but you MAY use Whirlwind 2. Still possess the feat but do not qualify for it. Here you can NOT use the feat, and can onot use anything else that requires it as a pre-req Example: You have the feats Cleave and Power Attack but are under the effect of either Strength Damage or a temporary Strength Drain (not a penalty - a penalty would not do this), down to a strength of 3. You no longer qualify for Power Attack or Cleave and may not use either of these feats 3. Acutally lose the feat. When you actually LOSE the feat, not only do you no longer qualify for other feats, but you can no longer advance in prestige classes that require the feats as a pre-req.
runestar 08-07-07, 10:58 PM	Example: You have the feats Cleave and Power Attack but are under the effect of either Strength Damage or a temporary Strength Drain (not a penalty - a penalty would not do this), down to a strength of 3. You no longer qualify for Power Attack or Cleave and may not use either of these feats I don't think you get my point either. Hypothetically (just to illustrate my example since I can't think of a better one off-hand), lets assume that cleave does not have a 13str requirement and only requires power attack. If a fighter has his str drained to below 13, he would lose the use of power attack. But because he still retains the feat, he can still use cleave (bearing in mind that the cleave feat used here does not require 13 str). That was what I was trying to say. I was clearly making a distinction between losing a feat (somehow) and not being able to access it due to not meeting its prereqs.
JadeSpider9643 08-08-07, 07:36 AM	I don't think you get my point either. Hypothetically (just to illustrate my example since I can't think of a better one off-hand), lets assume that cleave does not have a 13str requirement and only requires power attack. If a fighter has his str drained to below 13, he would lose the use of power attack. But because he still retains the feat, he can still use cleave (bearing in mind that the cleave feat used here does not require 13 str). That was what I was trying to say. I was clearly making a distinction between losing a feat (somehow) and not being able to access it due to not meeting its prereqs. Incorrect, if you do not meet the requirements for a feat that you possess, you lose all use of any abilities/feats that have THAT feat as a prerequisite, until you again meet all the prerequisites. Even if cleave did not have the STR requirement, you would still be unable to use it should you lose access to Power Attack. Although this entire point is uhh...pointless. As I'm unaware of any feats that have another feat as a prerequisite but don't have the lower-tier feat's prerequisites as part of the higher tier feat's prerequisites.
Pentagram 08-08-07, 02:48 PM	Incorrect, if you do not meet the requirements for a feat that you possess, you lose all use of any abilities/feats that have THAT feat as a prerequisite, until you again meet all the prerequisites. Losing the prerequisites for a feat means you can't use the feat, but you don't actually lose the feat. Spring Attack doesn't have "no heavy armor" as a prerequisite but you still lose the use of it when wearing heavy armor and yet you can use Whirlwind Attack, which has Spring Attack as a prerequisite, when in heavy armor. This seems to imply that the inability to use a feat that you have does in no way affect your ability to use feats that has the first feat as a prerequisite. Although this entire point is uhh...pointless. As I'm unaware of any feats that have another feat as a prerequisite but don't have the lower-tier feat's prerequisites as part of the higher tier feat's prerequisites. Actually, there are some metamagic feats that have prerequisites in the form of "any one/two metamagic feats" and don't share the prerequisites of those feats. E.g. Sculpt Spell has the prerequisite "Any metamagic feat" and Consecrate Spell has the prerequisite "Any good alignment". MY interpretation is that even should you lose the use of Consecrate Spell when turning non-good, you can still use Sculpt Spell because you still HAVE the prerequisite metamagic feat, whether you can use it or not.
tarkin 08-08-07, 04:41 PM	Your interpretation is incorrect. Like I said earlier, you are confusing the situation of "having a feat and not being in a situation where it is usefull" with "No longer qualifing for the feat" Those are two different things, just as not actually having the feat anymore means something different from no longer qualifying for the feat. The basic problem is that you are trying to 'cheat' the pre-reqs Normal feats are SUPPOSED to list out not only their own pre-reqs but also the pre-reqs of all their ancestral feats. Thus Cleave has the same Strength requirement that Power Attack has. This is done for one reason only: to make it obvious to people like you that if you lose the pre-reqs of a pre-reqs, you lose the main feat. A feat that lists "any other metamagic feat" can not literally do this beacsue the prereqs of the pre-reqs are variable, but that does NOT change the fact that you still need to have them.
ToastedAmphibian 08-08-07, 05:06 PM	So if a medium creature has the Reaping Mauler class, and then becomes large, he loses the benifits of Clever Wrestling (You must be small or medium size, it is a pre-req, and i hate it) and be unable to take more lvls in reaping mauler, unless he polymorph himself into a medium creature for 3 secounds or so? Would he still retain teh benifits of teh reaping mauler class when he was larger than medium?
Pentagram 08-08-07, 06:52 PM	Your interpretation is incorrect. Not sure whose interpretation you are referring to, but I will answer as if it was mine. Like I said earlier, you are confusing the situation of "having a feat and not being in a situation where it is usefull" with "No longer qualifing for the feat" Nope, no confusion. I don't see that the rules makes any difference, though, but I'm certain that you can point me to where this is stated. For clarification, I might add that I'm reading PHB, page 87. Those are two different things, just as not actually having the feat anymore means something different from no longer qualifying for the feat. That I agree with. According to PHB 87 I can't use a feat if I have lost a prerequisite, while it says nothing about what happens when I can't use a prerequisite or no longer qualifies for a prerequisite. The basic problem is that you are trying to 'cheat' the pre-reqs Eh, nope, I'm trying to see what the rules say. Normal feats are SUPPOSED to list out not only their own pre-reqs but also the pre-reqs of all their ancestral feats. I don't know about "supposed", but any feat that lists a specific feat as its prerequisite also lists the same prerequisites as its prerequisite feat. I'm quite sure it's made on purpose. Thus Cleave has the same Strength requirement that Power Attack has. Noted. This is done for one reason only: to make it obvious to people like you that if you lose the pre-reqs of a pre-reqs, you lose the main feat. A paranoid person had probably thought that the phrase "people like you" was some kind of veiled insult, but luckily I'm not THAT kind of person. Anyway, if the prerequisite of a feat includes the prerequisites of any earlier feats, it do have the effect of locking down any subsequent feat in a given chain of feats, should you lose the use of a prerequisite feat. Nothing in the rules states that this is how it should be, though, it is simply an effect of the inheritance of prerequisites. If Cleave would NOT have the Str 13 requirement that Power Attack has, you could very well be in a situation were your lack of Strength would make you lose the ability to use Power Attack while you still would fulfill all requirements for the Cleave feat. A feat that lists "any other metamagic feat" can not literally do this beacsue the prereqs of the pre-reqs are variable, but that does NOT change the fact that you still need to have them. That is YOUR interpretation. If you could show we were this is stated in the rules, or by errata or similar, it would be very nice. Until then, I simply go with what the rules says. Those rules say that I can't use a feat if I have lost a prerequisite. The Spring Attack-Whirlwind Attack issue makes it clear that I can use a feat even if I can't use a prerequisite feat. As I only lose the use of a feat when no longer qualifying, rather than losing the feat itself, It seems quite reasonable to believe that my inability to qualify for a given feat, doesn't prevent me from using subsequent feat, so long as I qualify for those feats.
JadeSpider9643 08-08-07, 08:35 PM	That is YOUR interpretation. If you could show we were this is stated in the rules, or by errata or similar, it would be very nice. Until then, I simply go with what the rules says. Those rules say that I can't use a feat if I have lost a prerequisite. The Spring Attack-Whirlwind Attack issue makes it clear that I can use a feat even if I can't use a prerequisite feat. As I only lose the use of a feat when no longer qualifying, rather than losing the feat itself, It seems quite reasonable to believe that my inability to qualify for a given feat, doesn't prevent me from using subsequent feat, so long as I qualify for those feats. You keep saying you are not confused, but you keep using the incorrect situation as prescident for your position. The prerequisites for Spring Attack do NOT include anything about wearing certain armor or armor proficiencies. that is part of the Benefit, not the prerequisites. Wearing Heavy armor does not disqualify you for Spring Attack, that simply isn't a situation where Spring Attack can be used. Put another way, you still qualify for Spring Attack when wearing Heavy Armor. It's like how Shot on the Run does not require your target to be within 30ft just because Point Blank shot only works on targets within 30ft. You don't have to be able to USE all the prerequisites of a feat to qualify for it, you only have to QUALIFY for all the prerequisites.
risner 08-09-07, 10:11 AM	1) When does it matter if you qualify for a feat? 2) you always have to meet the requierments when you want to use it? 3) What if he only originally had 13 str do to gloves of ogre strength? 4) It seems liek you could always use a feat that you had, as monks as well as many other classes gain feats they dont qualify for, but can still use them. 5) For example, say a medium dragon took the "Clever wrestling" feat, but latter gained enough HD to become a large creature. Would he still get the benifits of clever wrestling. 6) Either way, woudl he be able to take the reaping mauler PrC? 1) Almost always. 2) Yes 3) Doesn't matter how you got 13 STR, only that you do. 4) Monks with those feats effectly have them without the pre-reqs, so they can continue to use them even when they don't qualify. (Monk class ability for Monk class bonus feats) They couldn't (for example) take a feat via the every 3rd level normal feat and ignore pre-reqs even if they could have taken it as a Monk bonus feat and ignore pre-reqs. 5) If Clever Wrestling has a pre-req of Medium, he would lost it unless he shapeshifts into a medium size. 6) He has the feat, he should be able to enter the class if Clever Wrestling was a pre-req. So if a medium creature has the Reaping Mauler class, and then becomes large, he loses the benifits of Clever Wrestling (You must be small or medium size, it is a pre-req, and i hate it) and be unable to take more lvls in reaping mauler, unless he polymorph himself into a medium creature for 3 secounds or so? Would he still retain teh benifits of teh reaping mauler class when he was larger than medium? He would lose Clever Wrestling (unless he polymorphed to Medium), but would be able to take more levels in Reaping Mauler because he has the feat. (PHB p87) He would retain the Reaping Mauler abilites unless it had a pre-req of Medium size also.
Pentagram 08-09-07, 03:10 PM	You keep saying you are not confused, but you keep using the incorrect situation as prescident for your position. The prerequisites for Spring Attack do NOT include anything about wearing certain armor or armor proficiencies. I'm fully aware of that. I use the SP/WA-situation to show that the inability to use a feat doesn't disqualify you from using a feat that has the first feat as a prerequisite. Here are the rules test I use to support my position - its from PHB 87. "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." The key-word is HAVE. It doesn't say I must be able to USE the prerequisite. If I turn evil I don't lose my Consecrate Spell feat. I still have it, altough I'm unable to use it due to not having all the prerequisites (a good alignment, in this case). As I still HAVE Consecrate Spell, I do fullfill the requirements for my Sculpt Spell feat and can still use it. You don't have to be able to USE all the prerequisites of a feat to qualify for it, you only have to QUALIFY for all the prerequisites. It doesn't say that. It says you must HAVE the prerequisites.
ParadigmCFO 09-26-07, 02:22 AM	Here are the rules test I use to support my position - its from PHB 87. "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." The key-word is HAVE. It doesn't say I must be able to USE the prerequisite. If I turn evil I don't lose my Consecrate Spell feat. I still have it, altough I'm unable to use it due to not having all the prerequisites (a good alignment, in this case). As I still HAVE Consecrate Spell, I do fullfill the requirements for my Sculpt Spell feat and can still use it. It doesn't say that. It says you must HAVE the prerequisites. Alas, as a player of a wizard that is fond of using Polymorph I know that there is a great deal of precedent against your position. The loss of, lets say, the human bonus feat (a racial extraordinary ability) would cause the absolute loss of any other feat that has an appropriate prerequisite for the duration of the spell. Since one would have already 'selected' the feat(s) in question, an extension of your argument would indicate that one should still have use of the derivative feats.
EjoThims 09-26-07, 08:03 AM	Alas, as a player of a wizard that is fond of using Polymorph I know that there is a great deal of precedent against your position. The loss of, lets say, the human bonus feat (a racial extraordinary ability) would cause the absolute loss of any other feat that has an appropriate prerequisite for the duration of the spell. Since one would have already 'selected' the feat(s) in question, an extension of your argument would indicate that one should still have use of the derivative feats. That doesn't defeat his argument at all. When you become something other than human you are actually losing that bonus feat. We'll call it 'feat a.' Since you no longer have 'feat a' at all, all feats that it is a prerequisite for you no longer qualify for and can no longer use. We'll call all these feats 'feat b.' Note, you still have 'feat b,' you just can't use it since you do not have the prerequisites. Now, you have another feat that has 'feat b' as a prereq but does not have 'feat a' as a prereq. We'll call this one 'feat c.' You can use 'feat c,' because you still have all the prerequisites.
ParadigmCFO 09-26-07, 12:36 PM	That doesn't defeat his argument at all. And you base this upon a literalist reading of 31 words present on page 87 of the PHB? The FAQ does not directly address this point, but appears to indicate the inverse position, even in ways that make little sense. An elf that polymorphs into a non-elf somehow can't remember all the knowlege he obtained as an Elf Dilettante for example.
EjoThims 09-27-07, 07:20 AM	And you base this upon a literalist reading of 31 words present on page 87 of the PHB? The FAQ does not directly address this point, but appears to indicate the inverse position, even in ways that make little sense. An elf that polymorphs into a non-elf somehow can't remember all the knowlege he obtained as an Elf Dilettante for example. Because of specific odd-ball chains like the one you mention and the fact that losing is very different than not being able to use, I think it is a very valid point, especially since a literal reading backs it up.