Feat(s) for animal companions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat(s) for animal companions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chells
02-14-08, 11:29 AM I have a two part question:
First is an idea for a new feat.
Feral strikes: Allows creatures with natural melee weapons to count those attacks as improved unarmed strikes as well.
The idea is that the animal could then take some of the monk style feats. I guess I should first ask if there is already a feat like this? Also is this a bad idea?

Secondly, what feats have been found to be effective for animal companions?

Thanks
jaelis
02-14-08, 12:35 PM Feral strikes: Allows creatures with natural melee weapons to count those attacks as improved unarmed strikes as well.

I don't get it. In what way would they count as unarmed strikes? What monk feats are you after?
toucanbuzz
02-14-08, 12:44 PM Karate Bears with Nunchakus?

Animal companions are special, but no smarter than any other animal, and I don't see too many animal kingdom creatures studying the arts of hand-to-hand combat and flurry of fists.

As for feats, in addition to standard PHB feats, the SRD and Monstrous Manual also contain Monster Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monsterFeats.htm), a limited number of which animal companions could benefit from (including better natural armor and increasing the damage die of base attacks).

As animals progress at the cleric BAB, it may be awhile before Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) comes along, but I think that's one of the better options.
Slimgauge
02-14-08, 12:51 PM He may be after Improved Grapple for his critter, wich has a pre-requisite of Improved Unarmed Strike.
Chells
02-14-08, 01:09 PM Improved grapple was one of the big ones, Flying kick and possible even the stunning fist chain. The companion would be a gibbon or ape and so I thought some of the monk style punching/kicking/grappling would not be too far fetched.

Of course the animal would not truely be learning the monk disciplines but essentially learning different ways to hit things that would mirror the effects of some feats.
jaelis
02-14-08, 01:12 PM So why not just take Improved Unarmed Strike?
Artector
02-14-08, 01:15 PM So why not just take Improved Unarmed Strike?

Because an unarmed strike has paltry base damage as compared to natural attacks.

At least that's my guess.
jaelis
02-14-08, 01:19 PM But you can make a full unarmed strike routine in addition to your natural attacks. With multiattack as well, you do pretty well.
justicar347
02-14-08, 01:47 PM I'm pretty sure that having a natural attack already counts as having improved unarmed strike for the purpose of meeting the prerequisits for feats. I don't want to go into some wild tangent on how unarmed strikes and natural attacks mix. I've always let monsterous characters with natural attacks pick up Stunning Fist and Deflect Arrows.

As to whether animal companions can learn feats based off of Imp. Unarmed Stike, I would probably say it depends on the specific heat and animal. Teaching a dire bear Imp. Grapple to help with its Imp. Grab is not so unreasonable. Teaching a wolf to make Stunning Fist attacks is a lot harder to swallow. For the most part, I myself would not let most animals take most feats that require Imp. Unarmed Strike for the same reason that I would not let them take that feat, it does not make sense. Learning martial arts and special manuviors is a bit beyond animal inteligence.
toucanbuzz
02-14-08, 03:32 PM Unarmed attacks and natural attacks are not the same in the RAW. Natural attacks do not provoke an AoO because the creature was born with the weapon built in whereas humans require special training (aka the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) to overcome the risk associated with fighting armed foes while unarmed. Further, unarmed attacks involve punches, kicks, and headbutts (SRD) whereas natural attacks involve using claws, bites, etc. An Ape using "unarmed attacks" would cease to use his claws and instead ball up his fists and punch his foes. Odd to see, for sure, and against an Ape's nature, I'm sure. Hence, there would be a penalty without special training.

In any case, I would be inclined to think that most Feats and Monk abilities take study, including physical preparation, training, and study of documents to understand the complexity of the art. I can't see an ape making heads or tails out of that, much less accustoming itself to the training involved.

However, the RAW don't say anything about having more than a 2 intelligence to take the feats, so I can't see anything in the rules to prevent an Ape from taking Improved Unarmed Strike. Training an Ape to not "rend" with its claws and instead make fists or use his feet to kick would be a chore, I'm sure, and scream "wrong" to every sense of the ape which has been used to using its natural attacks since birth! But hey, a druid or ranger is a helluva teacher and might pull it off.... (which brings you to the question...who do you pay to teach your Ape martial arts?)
justicar347
02-14-08, 04:57 PM After looking around for a bit I was unable to find what I was looking for about natural weapons being treated as having Imp. Unarmed Strike for the prurpose of qualifying for feats. I think what I was probably thinking of was the fact that Thri-kreen get deflect arrows as a bonus feat. Either way it isn't bad as a house rule.

As to teaching an ape to use an unarmed strike, all I have to say is, "Left turn Clide." :D
Arminel
02-14-08, 05:06 PM For animal companions, it really simply depends. One of my first choices is Armor Proficiency (Light) so they'll be able to use barding of some sort. This usually gives them a much better AC to start with. After that, however, it simply depends on what you want for your animal companion. Tank? Dodge, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Toughness are all decent choices. Combat Reflexes isn't a bad choice no matter what the utility. For a bear or alligator, Improved Grapple. For some sort of flying animal, Flyby Attack. I took an Alligator animal companion starting at level 1 and gave it Improved Initiative when I had the chance, so it could get in front of me as fast as possible.
Chells
02-15-08, 07:45 AM But apes to bludgeon with their fists, far more so than they claw. A blow from a bear can snap someone’s neck even if the claws don't catch. Ostriches kick.

Now I would not say that you could teach an ape or bear to kick (or at least kick effectively) any more than you could teach an ostrich to grapple. So obviously you would not give feats that don’t fit the creature type but teaching an animal to hit “this way” is not that far fetched. If I can train my dogs to run an obstacle course or hit targets with their feet or noses from across the room then asking an ape in a magical world to swing at say a head instead of a chest seems quite reasonable.
toucanbuzz
02-15-08, 10:28 AM Hehe, I think it's doable within reason. Now if you open up a dojo with monkeys trained in the ancient art of tae-kwon-do, I think your DM is gonna step in....

Make sure your pet is "wise" enough before you take the Stunning Fist route (13 wisdom required, which is beyond most animals, and +8 BAB, which for animals should require 12th level).

There was a Clint Eastwood movie involving a well-trained orangutan partner that makes me thing this is all possible...

To cover earlier topics, I did see that creatures with natural physical weapons are considered 'armed' for purposes of not having penalties or incurring aoo's, but it's unclear what would occur when you forfeit the use of those in favor of 'fighting like a man' rather than a beast.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chells 02-14-08, 11:29 AM	I have a two part question: First is an idea for a new feat. Feral strikes: Allows creatures with natural melee weapons to count those attacks as improved unarmed strikes as well. The idea is that the animal could then take some of the monk style feats. I guess I should first ask if there is already a feat like this? Also is this a bad idea? Secondly, what feats have been found to be effective for animal companions? Thanks
jaelis 02-14-08, 12:35 PM	Feral strikes: Allows creatures with natural melee weapons to count those attacks as improved unarmed strikes as well. I don't get it. In what way would they count as unarmed strikes? What monk feats are you after?
toucanbuzz 02-14-08, 12:44 PM	Karate Bears with Nunchakus? Animal companions are special, but no smarter than any other animal, and I don't see too many animal kingdom creatures studying the arts of hand-to-hand combat and flurry of fists. As for feats, in addition to standard PHB feats, the SRD and Monstrous Manual also contain Monster Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monsterFeats.htm), a limited number of which animal companions could benefit from (including better natural armor and increasing the damage die of base attacks). As animals progress at the cleric BAB, it may be awhile before Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) comes along, but I think that's one of the better options.
Slimgauge 02-14-08, 12:51 PM	He may be after Improved Grapple for his critter, wich has a pre-requisite of Improved Unarmed Strike.
Chells 02-14-08, 01:09 PM	Improved grapple was one of the big ones, Flying kick and possible even the stunning fist chain. The companion would be a gibbon or ape and so I thought some of the monk style punching/kicking/grappling would not be too far fetched. Of course the animal would not truely be learning the monk disciplines but essentially learning different ways to hit things that would mirror the effects of some feats.
jaelis 02-14-08, 01:12 PM	So why not just take Improved Unarmed Strike?
Artector 02-14-08, 01:15 PM	So why not just take Improved Unarmed Strike? Because an unarmed strike has paltry base damage as compared to natural attacks. At least that's my guess.
jaelis 02-14-08, 01:19 PM	But you can make a full unarmed strike routine in addition to your natural attacks. With multiattack as well, you do pretty well.
justicar347 02-14-08, 01:47 PM	I'm pretty sure that having a natural attack already counts as having improved unarmed strike for the purpose of meeting the prerequisits for feats. I don't want to go into some wild tangent on how unarmed strikes and natural attacks mix. I've always let monsterous characters with natural attacks pick up Stunning Fist and Deflect Arrows. As to whether animal companions can learn feats based off of Imp. Unarmed Stike, I would probably say it depends on the specific heat and animal. Teaching a dire bear Imp. Grapple to help with its Imp. Grab is not so unreasonable. Teaching a wolf to make Stunning Fist attacks is a lot harder to swallow. For the most part, I myself would not let most animals take most feats that require Imp. Unarmed Strike for the same reason that I would not let them take that feat, it does not make sense. Learning martial arts and special manuviors is a bit beyond animal inteligence.
toucanbuzz 02-14-08, 03:32 PM	Unarmed attacks and natural attacks are not the same in the RAW. Natural attacks do not provoke an AoO because the creature was born with the weapon built in whereas humans require special training (aka the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) to overcome the risk associated with fighting armed foes while unarmed. Further, unarmed attacks involve punches, kicks, and headbutts (SRD) whereas natural attacks involve using claws, bites, etc. An Ape using "unarmed attacks" would cease to use his claws and instead ball up his fists and punch his foes. Odd to see, for sure, and against an Ape's nature, I'm sure. Hence, there would be a penalty without special training. In any case, I would be inclined to think that most Feats and Monk abilities take study, including physical preparation, training, and study of documents to understand the complexity of the art. I can't see an ape making heads or tails out of that, much less accustoming itself to the training involved. However, the RAW don't say anything about having more than a 2 intelligence to take the feats, so I can't see anything in the rules to prevent an Ape from taking Improved Unarmed Strike. Training an Ape to not "rend" with its claws and instead make fists or use his feet to kick would be a chore, I'm sure, and scream "wrong" to every sense of the ape which has been used to using its natural attacks since birth! But hey, a druid or ranger is a helluva teacher and might pull it off.... (which brings you to the question...who do you pay to teach your Ape martial arts?)
justicar347 02-14-08, 04:57 PM	After looking around for a bit I was unable to find what I was looking for about natural weapons being treated as having Imp. Unarmed Strike for the prurpose of qualifying for feats. I think what I was probably thinking of was the fact that Thri-kreen get deflect arrows as a bonus feat. Either way it isn't bad as a house rule. As to teaching an ape to use an unarmed strike, all I have to say is, "Left turn Clide." :D
Arminel 02-14-08, 05:06 PM	For animal companions, it really simply depends. One of my first choices is Armor Proficiency (Light) so they'll be able to use barding of some sort. This usually gives them a much better AC to start with. After that, however, it simply depends on what you want for your animal companion. Tank? Dodge, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Toughness are all decent choices. Combat Reflexes isn't a bad choice no matter what the utility. For a bear or alligator, Improved Grapple. For some sort of flying animal, Flyby Attack. I took an Alligator animal companion starting at level 1 and gave it Improved Initiative when I had the chance, so it could get in front of me as fast as possible.
Chells 02-15-08, 07:45 AM	But apes to bludgeon with their fists, far more so than they claw. A blow from a bear can snap someone’s neck even if the claws don't catch. Ostriches kick. Now I would not say that you could teach an ape or bear to kick (or at least kick effectively) any more than you could teach an ostrich to grapple. So obviously you would not give feats that don’t fit the creature type but teaching an animal to hit “this way” is not that far fetched. If I can train my dogs to run an obstacle course or hit targets with their feet or noses from across the room then asking an ape in a magical world to swing at say a head instead of a chest seems quite reasonable.
toucanbuzz 02-15-08, 10:28 AM	Hehe, I think it's doable within reason. Now if you open up a dojo with monkeys trained in the ancient art of tae-kwon-do, I think your DM is gonna step in.... Make sure your pet is "wise" enough before you take the Stunning Fist route (13 wisdom required, which is beyond most animals, and +8 BAB, which for animals should require 12th level). There was a Clint Eastwood movie involving a well-trained orangutan partner that makes me thing this is all possible... To cover earlier topics, I did see that creatures with natural physical weapons are considered 'armed' for purposes of not having penalties or incurring aoo's, but it's unclear what would occur when you forfeit the use of those in favor of 'fighting like a man' rather than a beast.