Feat suggestions? ----- Gestalt Druid 20 - Scout 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat suggestions? ----- Gestalt Druid 20 - Scout 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Toxaur
02-18-08, 05:01 PM Ok, I'm creating a character for a new game, starting at level 2. Any feat suggestions?

Human Gestalt Druid 20 - Scout 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5

I'm obviously having to take Alertness and Endurance, which will take up the Scout bonus feat and human bonus feat. And as a Master of Many Forms, I won't really need Natural Spell until I'm shifting into forms that cannot perform somatic spell components... namely Aberrations. So at level 9 I'll take Natural Spell in preparation for that.

Otherwise... what would you suggest?

Human bonus - Endurance
1st -
3rd -
4th scout bonus - Alertness
6th -
9th - Natural Spell

FYI - I plan to mostly use roughly humanoid forms, and the Bite of the Were---- spells often.
StruckingFuggle
02-18-08, 06:42 PM If you're morphing into something with a high str score regularly, I'd suggest Power Attack. :)

(also, I know it's S&F, rather than classes, but are you planning to go MoMF 10 then Warshaper 5 as your progression? And out of curiosity, why Scout instead of Ranger (bigger HD, better BAB)? )
dman11235
02-18-08, 06:50 PM Same HD. They have the same HD Strucking. I also want to know why though. Skirmish isn't getting you much. Unless you want evasion, in which case I'd suggest two levels of monk and then three of something else (Psychic Warrior for two levels taking force screen and expansion as powers, usually only using the force screen). Then a full BAB class for that last one. Maybe Barbarian and get pounce. And take extra rage if you actually want to use it, but spells are going to be your friend.
Jackmojo
02-18-08, 07:01 PM Yeah count me in on not seeing what scout gives you. If you have ToB Swordsage could be good too, a few nice levels of combat buffs plus wisdom to AC, and then you could spend feats on ToB maneuvers at higher levels as well.

Jack
StruckingFuggle
02-18-08, 07:19 PM Same HD. They have the same HD Strucking.
*facepalm*

For some reason I could have sworn that the ranger had d10 HD. >.<

Unless you want evasion, in which case I'd suggest two levels of monk and then three of something else (Psychic Warrior for two levels taking force screen and expansion as powers, usually only using the force screen).
Twinky Bonus: Monk's Wis-to-AC works even while you're Wildshaped.

( Druid 20 // Barbarian 1 / Monk 2 / Psywar 2 / MoMF X / Warshaper 4 / MoMF ... I am so going to play this character... if I get a chance. :( )
dman11235
02-18-08, 07:50 PM You'll want that 5th level of Warshaper. Multi-shape or whatever it's called is very useful. Gargantuan to normal without expending a use!
Toxaur
02-18-08, 07:56 PM Well, there are going to be some roguish opponents in this game, actually probably a lot of roguish opponents. So uncanny dodge is good for avoiding sneak attacks.

Also, the level 4 bonus feat takes care of one of the prereq MoMF feats.

And the skills are great with Scout, and evasion, and fast movement. Skirmish is just a bonus.

Barbarian is a nice thought, but spellcasting is important.

Monk is a nice idea, Wis to AC would be good, and the +1 AC bonus at 5. Improved Grapple and Combat reflexes would be useful, but it would mean 1 less feat otherwise, since there's no endurance or alertness bonus feat.

Does any of the other monk stuff work with wild shape? With natural attacks?

Still looking for feat suggestions.

And the 5th level of Warshaper gives you Multimorph
dman11235
02-18-08, 08:08 PM Monk. Has the same fast movement, same HD, better saves, Unarmed Stike, and evasion. All with two levels to spare. And the psywar can take Alertness as one feat, and Practiced Manifester as the other (longer duration, more PP). And you aren't doing this on your spell casting side, so barbarian isn't in the way. Also, you can use druid spells to gain Uncanny Dodge. The Primal spells give you it (Dragon Magic).

Basically, monk can get you evasion at 2, you don't need fast movement (just wild shape into a fast form), you can use spells to gain UD, skills aren't that important, and if they are you can just put a 12 in int or be a human, and skirmish is worthless to you. Psywar gets you +4 more AC for a battle (lasts 6 minutes with 2 levels and PM)., barbarian gets you pounce and more HP. Since you don't really need expansion, if you really don't want to get UD from spells, take a second level of Barbarian, and use this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#undyingWay) monk variant. It gets you endurance at second level.

EDIT: Unarmed Strike can be very useful. It's an iterative attack, and can get quite powerful, though will only be normal unless you dip Fist of the Forest for three levels. Probably not worth it in this build, since all of your PrC levels are taken. You can get damage as a level 11 monk with two levels, SUS (ToB) and a Monk's Belt, and then another four levels with a Monk's Tattoo (can't remember the book). Warshaper+INA makes it quite delicious, especially if you take the form of a larger creature.
StruckingFuggle
02-18-08, 08:32 PM Well, there are going to be some roguish opponents in this game, actually probably a lot of roguish opponents. So uncanny dodge is good for avoiding sneak attacks.

Well, uncanny dodge is kind of unnecessary after a point; since after a couple levels of Warshaper you become immune to Sneak Attacks. :)

Also, the level 4 bonus feat takes care of one of the prereq MoMF feats.
Yeah, but it might be better to soak it up, since you get more spending the four class levels on something else and spending your third level feat on Alertness or Endurance then you do with four scout levels; Ranger, by the way, gets Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level anyway. :)
Toxaur
02-18-08, 08:38 PM I cannot use psionics in this campaign.

And I'd rather not multiclass.

Would you still suggest Monk for the 1st 5 levels instead of Scout?

If I did go with Monk, I would probably still go with basic monk, rather than the variant because with reach especially, combat reflexes will be very useful, and improved grapple could be useful.

So if I went with Monk, what do I do for armor later on? If I use Wild armor, or similar, then I lose the monk bonus. And Bracers of Armor wouldn't shift with me, would they? And if they did, it would only be to human forms, correct? Unless the DM lets me use Wildling Clasps from the Magic Item Compendium.

And Strucking, Ranger would suck. Just for the record.
dman11235
02-18-08, 10:12 PM Why not multi-class?

And why would ranger suck?

Barbarian 2/monk 3 gets you everything the scout would give you, and more. It is too bad you can't use psionics in that campaign (as long as it's not because "psionics is broken"...), since the wisdom synergy with Psywar would rock for that one level, to give you +4 AC. But if no multi-classing, I'd say monk 5 is better: better saves, more AC (a LOT more), and bonus feats, along with IUS and monk damage, as a level 14 monk (18 with a Monk's Tattoo), AC as a level 10 monk (14 with the tattoo), and speed as a level 5 (9 with the tattoo).

And for armor: bracers. Use wilding clasps. Also, you get your wisdom to AC. You're going to focus on wisdom for spell casting, and since your physical stats get replaced. That means that wisdom alone is close to the +5 full plate you were going to wear. Possibly even equals or exceeds it (if you were a race with at least +2 wisdom and started with an 18).

Okay, you really do not want to do scout though. Endurance is a bonus feat available to monks (and why would that change in class make you want Combat Reflexes and Imp Graple if you weren't already going to take them? Also, endurance is one feat. I think you can spare one feat as a human. You need Endurance and Natural Spell. That's about it. And possibly extra wildshape retrained later.) and rangers, and psywars. Uncanny dodge isn't really necessary, but if you want it barbarians get it, and so do spells, spells that last 24 hours.
Toxaur
02-18-08, 10:44 PM Ok I see your points. Monk it is.

However, I need you to explain a few things for me. Please bear with me, I do not know all the little intricacies.

#1 Why does Improved Unarmed Strike and Monk damage matter with natural attacks?

#2 Where are you getting "as a level 14 monk (18 with a Monk's Tattoo)"?

#3 Where are you getting "AC as a level 10 monk (14 with the tattoo)"?

Grappling is often very useful in other, bigger, grappling-specialist forms. So Imp. Grapple might be useful. And Combat Reflexes I would probably have taken anyways, later on when I get large and larger forms.

Rangers suck for this instance, because they would have very little to offer compared to other classes.

Anyways, please explain to me the above numbered things. Thanks! You've been very helpful!
dman11235
02-18-08, 10:56 PM 1)Because you can make your unarmed strikes, and then your natural attacks.

2+3)Monk's Belt is +5, Superior Unarmed Strike is +4, and then Monk's Tattoo is another +4. SUS doesn't apply to AC, but the other two do.

So yeah. You would take those feats anyway, so why would it matter which one (endurance or Imp Grap) was the bonus feat? And monk gets you two of them as opposed to one. I also strongly suggest multi-classing to something else, at least after monk 3. Purity of Body would be nice, but it hardly comes into play, and the only dangerous diseases are supernatural or magical in nature. With all of your effective level boosts, there is no difference between unarmed damage between the two level differences. Also: Pounce. Barbarian 1 gets you pounce. Another level and you have Uncanny Dodge.
StruckingFuggle
02-18-08, 11:08 PM 1)Because you can make your unarmed strikes, and then your natural attacks.

I agree that it works.

And ... every time it's mentioned, I imagine a bear making headbutts for unarmed strikes. And it's too funny to really continue much thinking about.

(Out of curiosity, if you're a large animal, though - do you use large monk's unarmed attack damage?)

2+3)Monk's Belt is +5, Superior Unarmed Strike is +4, and then Monk's Tattoo is another +4. SUS doesn't apply to AC, but the other two do.
Out of curiosity, what's the Monk's Tattoo from?

With all of your effective level boosts, there is no difference between unarmed damage between the two level differences. Also: Pounce. Barbarian 1 gets you pounce. Another level and you have Uncanny Dodge.
Too bad that PRC to give Con To AC from CC wouldn't really fit unless you're willing to give up MoMF10 or Warshaper 5... :/

The one possible problem there is how to explain to most people going from Monk to Barbarian, roleplayingwise.
dman11235
02-18-08, 11:23 PM Why wouldn't you use the large unarmed damage?

I can't remember where it's from. Give me a second. It's from a book i don't have, I just know what it does.

And come on, I'm playing a monk/barbarian right now. Went into FotF too.

EDIT: Magic of Faerun. It's in the Lists of Stuff thread linked in my sig.
ToastedAmphibian
02-18-08, 11:56 PM Alot of people belive that Monks belt and IUS do not stack. Also, where are you getting monk tatoo from?

Yes you would do large-sized damage if your a large sized monk, regardless of your form.

If you go with teh pounce barbarian (Lame, but whatever) then power attack and leap attack would be very good.

And ya, monk is definetly a better path than scout. If you dont like monk, swordsage really does provide some interesting options as well.
dman11235
02-19-08, 12:55 AM But RAW they do Toasted. And I said where it was from in my edit, in case you missed it.
Toxaur
02-19-08, 01:02 AM Wow... complexity rules here. Pounce Barbarian, variant monk...

Ok. So how can you make unarmed strikes, and then natural attacks? That seems like cheating...

I do NOT want to munchkin here, I just want to build a good, fun, versatile character.
StruckingFuggle
02-19-08, 01:07 AM Every character is allowed as part of a full-round action to make their "armed attacks" (which unarmed attacks count is), and then make their natural weapon attacks on top of them; it's part of the rules for natural weapons.
dman11235
02-19-08, 11:00 AM I think the problem here (again, this happens way too much) is that you are hung up on unarmed attack. This does not necessarily mean "with the arms (fists)". You can use any part of you body for it.

And Strucking is 100% right in his previous post.
StruckingFuggle
02-19-08, 12:31 PM I think the problem here (again, this happens way too much) is that you are hung up on unarmed attack. This does not necessarily mean "with the arms (fists)".
I thought that that was only with the monk (hence taking monk instead of IUS), since the monk explicitly spells that out.
dman11235
02-19-08, 12:53 PM I'm pretty sure it's all unarmed attacks. Otherwise, what about a guy not trained in martial arts who kicks? I think it's much simpler this way, and it eliminates a LOT of contradictions.

Also, it doesn't say that it IS with the fists for IUS. It does say that it's with the entire body in the monk, but I think that's just a clarification, not an exception. Also, what character in core is going to use unarmed strikes and not be a monk?
StruckingFuggle
02-19-08, 01:02 PM Also, what character in core is going to use unarmed strikes and not be a monk?
Well, in Core, occasionally a fighter runs out of other fighter feats to take? Maybe...
Toxaur
02-19-08, 03:22 PM So where exactly in the rules, book and page, does it say that you can take armed or unarmed strike attacks, then natural attacks?

And how does that affect the attack bonus for each?

I have to be prepared to explain it to the DM and other players if they question it.
dman11235
02-19-08, 03:48 PM In the basic combat rules. The unarmed strike is a weapon, not a natural attack. It follows the weapon rules. Just think of it as a sword, and not an US. Since it follows the weapon rules, a BAB 16 druid in wildshape with a couple monk levels has an attack that looks like this:
with flurry: 14/14/9/4/-1 US, then natural weapons at -5 from that.
Without: 16/11/6/1, then natural weapons at -5.
Both of them get strength as normal, and any other applicable bonus. The US dels full str, and the natural weapons all deal 1/2 str.

Multi attack lowers the secondary natural weapon's penalty to -2, and improved multi attack gets rid of the penalty altogether.
Toxaur
02-19-08, 03:53 PM Flurry gives the same # of attacks as w/o flurry?

I don't suppose you can tell me the pages where it says you get all natural attacks after all armed attacks?

Multiattack would definitely be a good idea if it is all as you said.
dman11235
02-19-08, 03:57 PM Sorry, get rid of the first 16.

And SRD. I'll link the relevant section.

Multi-attack is a monster feat in that section of the SRD. You can navigate from my link, and then bookmark the SRD.

EDIT: That took a lot longer than I thought. I thought it was in the natural weapon description, but it was in the manufactured weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons ) section.
ToastedAmphibian
02-19-08, 05:51 PM But RAW they do Toasted. And I said where it was from in my edit, in case you missed it.

Oh belive me, i really do wish that they clearly did.
However, http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=981889&highlight=monk+belt+stack seems to indicate that the case is NOT particularly clear, and in other threads ive seen similar arguments. I know you are a staunch proponent of them stacking, but that dosnt mean everyone agrees, and generally when you cant get a good consensus on these boards it seems to be because the RAW is ambiguious. So all it means is that the OP should make sure to get his DM's Opinion on there stacking because, when it gets down too it, that is the only thing that matters there.
Toxaur
02-19-08, 08:32 PM Thanks dman!
dman11235
02-19-08, 10:16 PM No prob Toxaur.

As for the belt+SUS stacking, I never could see why they wouldn't. It's not a bonus, so that's out, and they both refer to effective monk level. But let's not delve into that here. So let's just say that this is the last of it.
ravenshrike
02-19-08, 10:42 PM But RAW they do Toasted. And I said where it was from in my edit, in case you missed it.

SUS and the Monks belt do not stack for the same reason Powerful Build and Monkey Grip don't stack. The latter two are both based off your original size, and the former two are based off your original level.
dman11235
02-19-08, 10:53 PM Points to previous post.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Toxaur 02-18-08, 05:01 PM	Ok, I'm creating a character for a new game, starting at level 2. Any feat suggestions? Human Gestalt Druid 20 - Scout 5/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5 I'm obviously having to take Alertness and Endurance, which will take up the Scout bonus feat and human bonus feat. And as a Master of Many Forms, I won't really need Natural Spell until I'm shifting into forms that cannot perform somatic spell components... namely Aberrations. So at level 9 I'll take Natural Spell in preparation for that. Otherwise... what would you suggest? Human bonus - Endurance 1st - 3rd - 4th scout bonus - Alertness 6th - 9th - Natural Spell FYI - I plan to mostly use roughly humanoid forms, and the Bite of the Were---- spells often.
StruckingFuggle 02-18-08, 06:42 PM	If you're morphing into something with a high str score regularly, I'd suggest Power Attack. :) (also, I know it's S&F, rather than classes, but are you planning to go MoMF 10 then Warshaper 5 as your progression? And out of curiosity, why Scout instead of Ranger (bigger HD, better BAB)? )
dman11235 02-18-08, 06:50 PM	Same HD. They have the same HD Strucking. I also want to know why though. Skirmish isn't getting you much. Unless you want evasion, in which case I'd suggest two levels of monk and then three of something else (Psychic Warrior for two levels taking force screen and expansion as powers, usually only using the force screen). Then a full BAB class for that last one. Maybe Barbarian and get pounce. And take extra rage if you actually want to use it, but spells are going to be your friend.
Jackmojo 02-18-08, 07:01 PM	Yeah count me in on not seeing what scout gives you. If you have ToB Swordsage could be good too, a few nice levels of combat buffs plus wisdom to AC, and then you could spend feats on ToB maneuvers at higher levels as well. Jack
StruckingFuggle 02-18-08, 07:19 PM	Same HD. They have the same HD Strucking. facepalm For some reason I could have sworn that the ranger had d10 HD. >.< Unless you want evasion, in which case I'd suggest two levels of monk and then three of something else (Psychic Warrior for two levels taking force screen and expansion as powers, usually only using the force screen). Twinky Bonus: Monk's Wis-to-AC works even while you're Wildshaped. ( Druid 20 // Barbarian 1 / Monk 2 / Psywar 2 / MoMF X / Warshaper 4 / MoMF ... I am so going to play this character... if I get a chance. :( )
dman11235 02-18-08, 07:50 PM	You'll want that 5th level of Warshaper. Multi-shape or whatever it's called is very useful. Gargantuan to normal without expending a use!
Toxaur 02-18-08, 07:56 PM	Well, there are going to be some roguish opponents in this game, actually probably a lot of roguish opponents. So uncanny dodge is good for avoiding sneak attacks. Also, the level 4 bonus feat takes care of one of the prereq MoMF feats. And the skills are great with Scout, and evasion, and fast movement. Skirmish is just a bonus. Barbarian is a nice thought, but spellcasting is important. Monk is a nice idea, Wis to AC would be good, and the +1 AC bonus at 5. Improved Grapple and Combat reflexes would be useful, but it would mean 1 less feat otherwise, since there's no endurance or alertness bonus feat. Does any of the other monk stuff work with wild shape? With natural attacks? Still looking for feat suggestions. And the 5th level of Warshaper gives you Multimorph
dman11235 02-18-08, 08:08 PM	Monk. Has the same fast movement, same HD, better saves, Unarmed Stike, and evasion. All with two levels to spare. And the psywar can take Alertness as one feat, and Practiced Manifester as the other (longer duration, more PP). And you aren't doing this on your spell casting side, so barbarian isn't in the way. Also, you can use druid spells to gain Uncanny Dodge. The Primal spells give you it (Dragon Magic). Basically, monk can get you evasion at 2, you don't need fast movement (just wild shape into a fast form), you can use spells to gain UD, skills aren't that important, and if they are you can just put a 12 in int or be a human, and skirmish is worthless to you. Psywar gets you +4 more AC for a battle (lasts 6 minutes with 2 levels and PM)., barbarian gets you pounce and more HP. Since you don't really need expansion, if you really don't want to get UD from spells, take a second level of Barbarian, and use this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#undyingWay) monk variant. It gets you endurance at second level. EDIT: Unarmed Strike can be very useful. It's an iterative attack, and can get quite powerful, though will only be normal unless you dip Fist of the Forest for three levels. Probably not worth it in this build, since all of your PrC levels are taken. You can get damage as a level 11 monk with two levels, SUS (ToB) and a Monk's Belt, and then another four levels with a Monk's Tattoo (can't remember the book). Warshaper+INA makes it quite delicious, especially if you take the form of a larger creature.
StruckingFuggle 02-18-08, 08:32 PM	Well, there are going to be some roguish opponents in this game, actually probably a lot of roguish opponents. So uncanny dodge is good for avoiding sneak attacks. Well, uncanny dodge is kind of unnecessary after a point; since after a couple levels of Warshaper you become immune to Sneak Attacks. :) Also, the level 4 bonus feat takes care of one of the prereq MoMF feats. Yeah, but it might be better to soak it up, since you get more spending the four class levels on something else and spending your third level feat on Alertness or Endurance then you do with four scout levels; Ranger, by the way, gets Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level anyway. :)
Toxaur 02-18-08, 08:38 PM	I cannot use psionics in this campaign. And I'd rather not multiclass. Would you still suggest Monk for the 1st 5 levels instead of Scout? If I did go with Monk, I would probably still go with basic monk, rather than the variant because with reach especially, combat reflexes will be very useful, and improved grapple could be useful. So if I went with Monk, what do I do for armor later on? If I use Wild armor, or similar, then I lose the monk bonus. And Bracers of Armor wouldn't shift with me, would they? And if they did, it would only be to human forms, correct? Unless the DM lets me use Wildling Clasps from the Magic Item Compendium. And Strucking, Ranger would suck. Just for the record.
dman11235 02-18-08, 10:12 PM	Why not multi-class? And why would ranger suck? Barbarian 2/monk 3 gets you everything the scout would give you, and more. It is too bad you can't use psionics in that campaign (as long as it's not because "psionics is broken"...), since the wisdom synergy with Psywar would rock for that one level, to give you +4 AC. But if no multi-classing, I'd say monk 5 is better: better saves, more AC (a LOT more), and bonus feats, along with IUS and monk damage, as a level 14 monk (18 with a Monk's Tattoo), AC as a level 10 monk (14 with the tattoo), and speed as a level 5 (9 with the tattoo). And for armor: bracers. Use wilding clasps. Also, you get your wisdom to AC. You're going to focus on wisdom for spell casting, and since your physical stats get replaced. That means that wisdom alone is close to the +5 full plate you were going to wear. Possibly even equals or exceeds it (if you were a race with at least +2 wisdom and started with an 18). Okay, you really do not want to do scout though. Endurance is a bonus feat available to monks (and why would that change in class make you want Combat Reflexes and Imp Graple if you weren't already going to take them? Also, endurance is one feat. I think you can spare one feat as a human. You need Endurance and Natural Spell. That's about it. And possibly extra wildshape retrained later.) and rangers, and psywars. Uncanny dodge isn't really necessary, but if you want it barbarians get it, and so do spells, spells that last 24 hours.
Toxaur 02-18-08, 10:44 PM	Ok I see your points. Monk it is. However, I need you to explain a few things for me. Please bear with me, I do not know all the little intricacies. #1 Why does Improved Unarmed Strike and Monk damage matter with natural attacks? #2 Where are you getting "as a level 14 monk (18 with a Monk's Tattoo)"? #3 Where are you getting "AC as a level 10 monk (14 with the tattoo)"? Grappling is often very useful in other, bigger, grappling-specialist forms. So Imp. Grapple might be useful. And Combat Reflexes I would probably have taken anyways, later on when I get large and larger forms. Rangers suck for this instance, because they would have very little to offer compared to other classes. Anyways, please explain to me the above numbered things. Thanks! You've been very helpful!
dman11235 02-18-08, 10:56 PM	1)Because you can make your unarmed strikes, and then your natural attacks. 2+3)Monk's Belt is +5, Superior Unarmed Strike is +4, and then Monk's Tattoo is another +4. SUS doesn't apply to AC, but the other two do. So yeah. You would take those feats anyway, so why would it matter which one (endurance or Imp Grap) was the bonus feat? And monk gets you two of them as opposed to one. I also strongly suggest multi-classing to something else, at least after monk 3. Purity of Body would be nice, but it hardly comes into play, and the only dangerous diseases are supernatural or magical in nature. With all of your effective level boosts, there is no difference between unarmed damage between the two level differences. Also: Pounce. Barbarian 1 gets you pounce. Another level and you have Uncanny Dodge.
StruckingFuggle 02-18-08, 11:08 PM	1)Because you can make your unarmed strikes, and then your natural attacks. I agree that it works. And ... every time it's mentioned, I imagine a bear making headbutts for unarmed strikes. And it's too funny to really continue much thinking about. (Out of curiosity, if you're a large animal, though - do you use large monk's unarmed attack damage?) 2+3)Monk's Belt is +5, Superior Unarmed Strike is +4, and then Monk's Tattoo is another +4. SUS doesn't apply to AC, but the other two do. Out of curiosity, what's the Monk's Tattoo from? With all of your effective level boosts, there is no difference between unarmed damage between the two level differences. Also: Pounce. Barbarian 1 gets you pounce. Another level and you have Uncanny Dodge. Too bad that PRC to give Con To AC from CC wouldn't really fit unless you're willing to give up MoMF10 or Warshaper 5... :/ The one possible problem there is how to explain to most people going from Monk to Barbarian, roleplayingwise.
dman11235 02-18-08, 11:23 PM	Why wouldn't you use the large unarmed damage? I can't remember where it's from. Give me a second. It's from a book i don't have, I just know what it does. And come on, I'm playing a monk/barbarian right now. Went into FotF too. EDIT: Magic of Faerun. It's in the Lists of Stuff thread linked in my sig.
ToastedAmphibian 02-18-08, 11:56 PM	Alot of people belive that Monks belt and IUS do not stack. Also, where are you getting monk tatoo from? Yes you would do large-sized damage if your a large sized monk, regardless of your form. If you go with teh pounce barbarian (Lame, but whatever) then power attack and leap attack would be very good. And ya, monk is definetly a better path than scout. If you dont like monk, swordsage really does provide some interesting options as well.
dman11235 02-19-08, 12:55 AM	But RAW they do Toasted. And I said where it was from in my edit, in case you missed it.
Toxaur 02-19-08, 01:02 AM	Wow... complexity rules here. Pounce Barbarian, variant monk... Ok. So how can you make unarmed strikes, and then natural attacks? That seems like cheating... I do NOT want to munchkin here, I just want to build a good, fun, versatile character.
StruckingFuggle 02-19-08, 01:07 AM	Every character is allowed as part of a full-round action to make their "armed attacks" (which unarmed attacks count is), and then make their natural weapon attacks on top of them; it's part of the rules for natural weapons.
dman11235 02-19-08, 11:00 AM	I think the problem here (again, this happens way too much) is that you are hung up on unarmed attack. This does not necessarily mean "with the arms (fists)". You can use any part of you body for it. And Strucking is 100% right in his previous post.
StruckingFuggle 02-19-08, 12:31 PM	I think the problem here (again, this happens way too much) is that you are hung up on unarmed attack. This does not necessarily mean "with the arms (fists)". I thought that that was only with the monk (hence taking monk instead of IUS), since the monk explicitly spells that out.
dman11235 02-19-08, 12:53 PM	I'm pretty sure it's all unarmed attacks. Otherwise, what about a guy not trained in martial arts who kicks? I think it's much simpler this way, and it eliminates a LOT of contradictions. Also, it doesn't say that it IS with the fists for IUS. It does say that it's with the entire body in the monk, but I think that's just a clarification, not an exception. Also, what character in core is going to use unarmed strikes and not be a monk?
StruckingFuggle 02-19-08, 01:02 PM	Also, what character in core is going to use unarmed strikes and not be a monk? Well, in Core, occasionally a fighter runs out of other fighter feats to take? Maybe...
Toxaur 02-19-08, 03:22 PM	So where exactly in the rules, book and page, does it say that you can take armed or unarmed strike attacks, then natural attacks? And how does that affect the attack bonus for each? I have to be prepared to explain it to the DM and other players if they question it.
dman11235 02-19-08, 03:48 PM	In the basic combat rules. The unarmed strike is a weapon, not a natural attack. It follows the weapon rules. Just think of it as a sword, and not an US. Since it follows the weapon rules, a BAB 16 druid in wildshape with a couple monk levels has an attack that looks like this: with flurry: 14/14/9/4/-1 US, then natural weapons at -5 from that. Without: 16/11/6/1, then natural weapons at -5. Both of them get strength as normal, and any other applicable bonus. The US dels full str, and the natural weapons all deal 1/2 str. Multi attack lowers the secondary natural weapon's penalty to -2, and improved multi attack gets rid of the penalty altogether.
Toxaur 02-19-08, 03:53 PM	Flurry gives the same # of attacks as w/o flurry? I don't suppose you can tell me the pages where it says you get all natural attacks after all armed attacks? Multiattack would definitely be a good idea if it is all as you said.
dman11235 02-19-08, 03:57 PM	Sorry, get rid of the first 16. And SRD. I'll link the relevant section. Multi-attack is a monster feat in that section of the SRD. You can navigate from my link, and then bookmark the SRD. EDIT: That took a lot longer than I thought. I thought it was in the natural weapon description, but it was in the manufactured weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons ) section.
ToastedAmphibian 02-19-08, 05:51 PM	But RAW they do Toasted. And I said where it was from in my edit, in case you missed it. Oh belive me, i really do wish that they clearly did. However, http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=981889&highlight=monk+belt+stack seems to indicate that the case is NOT particularly clear, and in other threads ive seen similar arguments. I know you are a staunch proponent of them stacking, but that dosnt mean everyone agrees, and generally when you cant get a good consensus on these boards it seems to be because the RAW is ambiguious. So all it means is that the OP should make sure to get his DM's Opinion on there stacking because, when it gets down too it, that is the only thing that matters there.
Toxaur 02-19-08, 08:32 PM	Thanks dman!
dman11235 02-19-08, 10:16 PM	No prob Toxaur. As for the belt+SUS stacking, I never could see why they wouldn't. It's not a bonus, so that's out, and they both refer to effective monk level. But let's not delve into that here. So let's just say that this is the last of it.
ravenshrike 02-19-08, 10:42 PM	But RAW they do Toasted. And I said where it was from in my edit, in case you missed it. SUS and the Monks belt do not stack for the same reason Powerful Build and Monkey Grip don't stack. The latter two are both based off your original size, and the former two are based off your original level.
dman11235 02-19-08, 10:53 PM	Points to previous post.