feat that lets you use improvised weapons without penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

feat that lets you use improvised weapons without penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Particle_Man
07-02-07, 01:21 AM Is there a feat that lets you use improvised weapons without a penalty to the attack roll?
Salla
07-02-07, 01:25 AM Not officially, but I'd probably allow it with an Exotic Weapons Proficiency.

Which can lead you to a really fun Jackie Chan-esque Exotic Weapons Master. "Flurry of Watermelons!!"
Kouk
07-02-07, 01:26 AM I believe only Drunken Masters can do this.

Jackie Chan was in at least two movies about a Drunken Master by the way ;)
Fallenangel359
07-02-07, 10:21 AM technically drunken masters aren't proficient with improvised weapons
Genetic
07-02-07, 10:28 AM technically drunken masters aren't proficient with improvised weapons

Which is really dumb. I'm surprised they haven't errataed that yet.
tarkin
07-02-07, 12:21 PM That is clearly an epic feat.

You are in effect having a single feat that makes you proficient with EVERY weapon.

Hm. I don't know how to use that Spiked Chain, I will just treat it like an improvised weapon.
Salla
07-02-07, 12:50 PM That is clearly an epic feat.

You are in effect having a single feat that makes you proficient with EVERY weapon.

Hm. I don't know how to use that Spiked Chain, I will just treat it like an improvised weapon.

Not really. The feat would make you proficient with things that aren't weapons. :)
Dalthbar
07-02-07, 12:53 PM Not really. The feat would make you proficient with things that aren't weapons. :)
Using something that's not designed to be a weapon as a weapon should be more difficult than using something that's designed to be a weapon but you're not totally familiar with it.

One feat that grants you access to "all improvised weapons" is insane. It's like a feat that grants you access to "all exotic weapons" because "they're exotic".

It just doesn't work that way.
Enmarnacu
07-02-07, 01:22 PM Someone who is very used to grabbing whatever's nearby and hitting another person will eventually gain a slight ability to deduce how to use random items he or she isn't entirely familiar with. So a feat to reduce but not eliminate the penalty on all improvised weapons might be suitable. We've all seen Jackie Chan grab an umbrella to fight; he still has difficulties.

As for completely eliminating the penalty, such a feat would be better for specific types of improvised weapons and just taken over and over again like weapon proficiency feats. For example, the first time a player takes it the feat would make him proficient with improvised items like table and chair legs, planks of wood and large sticks. The second time would make him proficient with thrown objects such as mugs, paperweights, and that extremely powerful, ball-sized magic item he doesn't know what to do with.

Personally, I want to have a rule in which wizards are proficient with using their spellbooks as improvised martial weapons with reduced penalties. They would be familiar with it and any book nerd has had to use their book as a weapon at least once against the forces of uneducated evil.

Books make great weapons. Remember to shout "Improvised weapon!" and clomp your DM over the head with the PHB next time he says something stupid.
Salla
07-02-07, 01:24 PM Using something that's not designed to be a weapon as a weapon should be more difficult than using something that's designed to be a weapon but you're not totally familiar with it.

One feat that grants you access to "all improvised weapons" is insane. It's like a feat that grants you access to "all exotic weapons" because "they're exotic".

It just doesn't work that way.

How, exactly, is it overpowered to be able to use a fish as well as a watermelon in a fight?
Dalthbar
07-02-07, 01:30 PM How, exactly, is it overpowered to be able to use a fish as well as a watermelon in a fight?
It's not overpowered because you can fight "with a fish or a watermelon". It's overpowered because you can "pick up anything that you're unfamiliar with and use it as if you're perfectly trained in fighting with it".

And that's why it's stupid if you could pick up a fish and fight with it at no penalty but couldn't pick up something that's a weapon that you're not trained with and NOT fight with it without a penalty.

It's like someone that can put screws into wood with a butterknife like a professional carpenter, but can't do it with an actual screwdriver. That just doesn't make sense.

You should almost always be able to use a tool for it's intended purpose better than an improvised tool that's really poor at the thing you're trying to do. If not, then the intended tool is fundamentally flawed.
ShinAkuma2
07-02-07, 02:04 PM Which is really dumb. I'm surprised they haven't errataed that yet.

Why should they errata it? That implies that a change is necessary.

No matter how much you practice fighting with a beer stein or a table leg, nothing will change the fact that these are not suitable weapons. The -4 comes from the fact that you're not using a proper weapon. It has nothing to do with proficiency.
schnynkle
07-02-07, 08:12 PM If I understand properly, when you use an improvised weapon, you need to compare it to a real weapon to figure out its damage. Why not make it so you can reduce the improvised weapon penalty for weapons based on the ones you are proficient with.
bobothechimp
07-02-07, 08:17 PM No matter how skillful you are, it will always be more effective to use a warhammer than a broom.
jaelis
07-03-07, 08:41 AM I tend to agree that a feat to use improvised weapons without penalty is a bad idea, but if you were set on it, here's one way you might do it:

Improved Improvisation
You can fight effectively with anything, but only in a haphazard way that puts your weapon at risk.
Prereq: Power attack, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: You can attack with an improvised melee weapon without taking the -4 penalty. You can also wield any regular melee weapon without taking a penalty for non-proficiency. However, if you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll while using the benefit of this feat, the weapon breaks, whether it is a regular weapon or not.
tui
07-03-07, 01:54 PM Improved Improvisation
You can fight effectively with anything, but only in a haphazard way that puts your weapon at risk.
Prereq: Power attack, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: You can attack with an improvised melee weapon without taking the -4 penalty. You can also wield any regular melee weapon without taking a penalty for non-proficiency. However, if you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll while using the benefit of this feat, the weapon breaks, whether it is a regular weapon or not.
I don't really see a reason to have Power Attack as a prerequisite... maybe just bump the BAB up to +6; it is a pretty useful ability and should be restricted to someone who is already pretty skilled in combat.
Lanta
07-07-07, 09:39 AM Why doesn't it work like Flurry of Blows? As you get better, the penalty is reduced? Taking DM as a Prc, reduces the penalty to -2 at lvl 1, and then 0 at lvl 5? Then, at lvl 9, he has become so used to fighting with anything at hand, it is actually a +1? Doesn't that fit the spirit of the class?
Contrast
07-07-07, 10:21 AM Fight with Anything, page 59 of d20 Apocalypse.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Particle_Man 07-02-07, 01:21 AM	Is there a feat that lets you use improvised weapons without a penalty to the attack roll?
Salla 07-02-07, 01:25 AM	Not officially, but I'd probably allow it with an Exotic Weapons Proficiency. Which can lead you to a really fun Jackie Chan-esque Exotic Weapons Master. "Flurry of Watermelons!!"
Kouk 07-02-07, 01:26 AM	I believe only Drunken Masters can do this. Jackie Chan was in at least two movies about a Drunken Master by the way ;)
Fallenangel359 07-02-07, 10:21 AM	technically drunken masters aren't proficient with improvised weapons
Genetic 07-02-07, 10:28 AM	technically drunken masters aren't proficient with improvised weapons Which is really dumb. I'm surprised they haven't errataed that yet.
tarkin 07-02-07, 12:21 PM	That is clearly an epic feat. You are in effect having a single feat that makes you proficient with EVERY weapon. Hm. I don't know how to use that Spiked Chain, I will just treat it like an improvised weapon.
Salla 07-02-07, 12:50 PM	That is clearly an epic feat. You are in effect having a single feat that makes you proficient with EVERY weapon. Hm. I don't know how to use that Spiked Chain, I will just treat it like an improvised weapon. Not really. The feat would make you proficient with things that aren't weapons. :)
Dalthbar 07-02-07, 12:53 PM	Not really. The feat would make you proficient with things that aren't weapons. :) Using something that's not designed to be a weapon as a weapon should be more difficult than using something that's designed to be a weapon but you're not totally familiar with it. One feat that grants you access to "all improvised weapons" is insane. It's like a feat that grants you access to "all exotic weapons" because "they're exotic". It just doesn't work that way.
Enmarnacu 07-02-07, 01:22 PM	Someone who is very used to grabbing whatever's nearby and hitting another person will eventually gain a slight ability to deduce how to use random items he or she isn't entirely familiar with. So a feat to reduce but not eliminate the penalty on all improvised weapons might be suitable. We've all seen Jackie Chan grab an umbrella to fight; he still has difficulties. As for completely eliminating the penalty, such a feat would be better for specific types of improvised weapons and just taken over and over again like weapon proficiency feats. For example, the first time a player takes it the feat would make him proficient with improvised items like table and chair legs, planks of wood and large sticks. The second time would make him proficient with thrown objects such as mugs, paperweights, and that extremely powerful, ball-sized magic item he doesn't know what to do with. Personally, I want to have a rule in which wizards are proficient with using their spellbooks as improvised martial weapons with reduced penalties. They would be familiar with it and any book nerd has had to use their book as a weapon at least once against the forces of uneducated evil. Books make great weapons. Remember to shout "Improvised weapon!" and clomp your DM over the head with the PHB next time he says something stupid.
Salla 07-02-07, 01:24 PM	Using something that's not designed to be a weapon as a weapon should be more difficult than using something that's designed to be a weapon but you're not totally familiar with it. One feat that grants you access to "all improvised weapons" is insane. It's like a feat that grants you access to "all exotic weapons" because "they're exotic". It just doesn't work that way. How, exactly, is it overpowered to be able to use a fish as well as a watermelon in a fight?
Dalthbar 07-02-07, 01:30 PM	How, exactly, is it overpowered to be able to use a fish as well as a watermelon in a fight? It's not overpowered because you can fight "with a fish or a watermelon". It's overpowered because you can "pick up anything that you're unfamiliar with and use it as if you're perfectly trained in fighting with it". And that's why it's stupid if you could pick up a fish and fight with it at no penalty but couldn't pick up something that's a weapon that you're not trained with and NOT fight with it without a penalty. It's like someone that can put screws into wood with a butterknife like a professional carpenter, but can't do it with an actual screwdriver. That just doesn't make sense. You should almost always be able to use a tool for it's intended purpose better than an improvised tool that's really poor at the thing you're trying to do. If not, then the intended tool is fundamentally flawed.
ShinAkuma2 07-02-07, 02:04 PM	Which is really dumb. I'm surprised they haven't errataed that yet. Why should they errata it? That implies that a change is necessary. No matter how much you practice fighting with a beer stein or a table leg, nothing will change the fact that these are not suitable weapons. The -4 comes from the fact that you're not using a proper weapon. It has nothing to do with proficiency.
schnynkle 07-02-07, 08:12 PM	If I understand properly, when you use an improvised weapon, you need to compare it to a real weapon to figure out its damage. Why not make it so you can reduce the improvised weapon penalty for weapons based on the ones you are proficient with.
bobothechimp 07-02-07, 08:17 PM	No matter how skillful you are, it will always be more effective to use a warhammer than a broom.
jaelis 07-03-07, 08:41 AM	I tend to agree that a feat to use improvised weapons without penalty is a bad idea, but if you were set on it, here's one way you might do it: Improved Improvisation You can fight effectively with anything, but only in a haphazard way that puts your weapon at risk. Prereq: Power attack, base attack bonus +3 Benefit: You can attack with an improvised melee weapon without taking the -4 penalty. You can also wield any regular melee weapon without taking a penalty for non-proficiency. However, if you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll while using the benefit of this feat, the weapon breaks, whether it is a regular weapon or not.
tui 07-03-07, 01:54 PM	Improved Improvisation You can fight effectively with anything, but only in a haphazard way that puts your weapon at risk. Prereq: Power attack, base attack bonus +3 Benefit: You can attack with an improvised melee weapon without taking the -4 penalty. You can also wield any regular melee weapon without taking a penalty for non-proficiency. However, if you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll while using the benefit of this feat, the weapon breaks, whether it is a regular weapon or not. I don't really see a reason to have Power Attack as a prerequisite... maybe just bump the BAB up to +6; it is a pretty useful ability and should be restricted to someone who is already pretty skilled in combat.
Lanta 07-07-07, 09:39 AM	Why doesn't it work like Flurry of Blows? As you get better, the penalty is reduced? Taking DM as a Prc, reduces the penalty to -2 at lvl 1, and then 0 at lvl 5? Then, at lvl 9, he has become so used to fighting with anything at hand, it is actually a +1? Doesn't that fit the spirit of the class?
Contrast 07-07-07, 10:21 AM	Fight with Anything, page 59 of d20 Apocalypse.