Feat to increase max ranks in a skill? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat to increase max ranks in a skill? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gonf
09-13-07, 05:05 PM I was wondering if there is a feat to increase max ranks in a skill above normal for your level. I remember hearing something about it at one point, but I lost track of the thread.

Anyways, if anyone has come across said feat or knows where I could find it please let me know.
Puca
09-13-07, 05:06 PM To the best of my knowledge, no such feat exists. Nor should it.
Eerongal
09-13-07, 05:18 PM To the best of my knowledge, no such feat exists. Nor should it.

agreed. No such feat to my knowledge exists, and it certainly should not, because it makes it easier for you to qualify for prestiege classes at lower level. For example, a single feat that gave you a +1 to maximum skill ranks would knock off 1 level it takes to get the ranks to qualify for a prestiege class, which means a human who takes that as both his 1st level feats could potentially qualify for some prestiege classes by level 3. Skill rank requirements and BAB bonuses are the only way to limit entrance to a minimum level (usually 5) which is one reason why you'll never see a feat to do as such (among other problems if there was a feat to increase BAB :P)
MerlintheTuna
09-13-07, 07:08 PM There's something in Cityscape that increases your max skill rank for one skill by 1. I'm not sure offhand whether it's a feat, an affiliation, or what.
StruckingFuggle
09-13-07, 08:15 PM What if it had a prereq that meant you couldn't get it before level 6 or 9? Thus taking out much of the "early entry" requirements?
jaelis
09-13-07, 10:39 PM Why would you want to do this, except to get into a PrC early? I suppose you could be after a synergy bonus at level 1, but that seems rather short-sighted. But for anything else, doesn't granting a bonus to your skill checks do as well or better?

Note that a feat increasing your max ranks in a non-class skill to the class-skill limit is not unreasonable, and I think may exist.
yrogerg
09-13-07, 11:09 PM Note that a feat increasing your max ranks in a non-class skill to the class-skill limit is not unreasonable, and I think may exist.

Well, Educated makes all Knowledge: skills class skills. So feats that simply turn several cross-class skills into class skills aren't that unreasonable, either.
runestar
09-14-07, 03:05 AM There's something in Cityscape that increases your max skill rank for one skill by 1. I'm not sure offhand whether it's a feat, an affiliation, or what.

It is a guild benefit, IIRC. Raises the cap on one of your skills to 4+HD.
tarkin
09-14-07, 12:42 PM Question:

If you are NOT attempting to take a prestige class earlier than the prestige class designer wanted you too, then...
why is a set bonus to the skill not satisfactory?

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you have some other reason besides trying to outright break the rules.

Please tell me so.
Sunblast
09-14-07, 12:50 PM Seriously, unless you're wanting to enter a prestige class early, there's no reason for this. Skill Focus ought to do the trick.

What are you up to, exactly?
deathbane
09-14-07, 01:13 PM Seriously, unless you're wanting to enter a prestige class early, there's no reason for this. Skill Focus ought to do the trick.

What are you up to, exactly?

Skill focus does not give you ranks. It only gives a higher check modifier.
maskimus
09-14-07, 01:28 PM Skill focus does not give you ranks. It only gives a higher check modifier.

True. But what most on this thread are asking the OP is why do you need more ranks early, if not to qualify for a PrC earlier than intended? If that is not the goal, then there are many ways to boost skills without extra ranks.
AtsuiShoto
09-14-07, 01:40 PM What if it had a prereq that meant you couldn't get it before level 6 or 9? Thus taking out much of the "early entry" requirements? I think making it Level 6 wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't think of any PrC's that enter at 8th level because of an 11-ranks requirement.

Of course, then why on earth would someone want this feat? I wouldn't. If desperate for skill bonuses, just use Skill Focus and a relevant +2/+2 feat for a total of +5. Then grab an item to boost it another few points. Actual skill ranks are expensive in comparison, because they're a limited commodity.
deathbane
09-14-07, 02:31 PM True. But what most on this thread are asking the OP is why do you need more ranks early, if not to qualify for a PrC earlier than intended? If that is not the goal, then there are many ways to boost skills without extra ranks.

Sorry about that. I misunderstood your intentions.
Eerongal
09-14-07, 03:09 PM I think making it Level 6 wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't think of any PrC's that enter at 8th level because of an 11-ranks requirement.

Of course, then why on earth would someone want this feat? I wouldn't. If desperate for skill bonuses, just use Skill Focus and a relevant +2/+2 feat for a total of +5. Then grab an item to boost it another few points. Actual skill ranks are expensive in comparison, because they're a limited commodity.

Foclocaun (spelling?) lyrist requires 13 ranks in various skills.
tarkin
09-14-07, 03:20 PM And the Game designer that created that PrC did so intentionally. What, you thought he wrote 13 ranks without thinking it through?

The guy that wrote what you want to do was effectively saying:

"Hey, this is TOO powerfull at low levels. You can only get it at higher levels".

OK, maybe he was wrong about that class.

What makes you think that it is OK to directly change that for ALL Prestige Classes without even a thought.

Look, if you think a specific Prestige Class is weak and is fair to take at lower levels, then hey, change the pre-reqs for that particular Prestige class.

In a Power Game, that might be appropriate.

But don't go willy nilly making all skill based PrCs easier to get into. Not unless you don't care at all about game balance.
MerlintheTuna
09-14-07, 05:26 PM True. But what most on this thread are asking the OP is why do you need more ranks early, if not to qualify for a PrC earlier than intended?Grabbing a feat early or grabbing a skill trick early comes to mind.
runestar
09-14-07, 10:16 PM I think making it Level 6 wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't think of any PrC's that enter at 8th level because of an 11-ranks requirement.

One example might be the fleshwarper prc from lords of madness, which requires the graft flesh feat, which in turn requires 10 ranks in heal, meaning the earliest you can enter the prc is at lv10 (since the soonest you can take said feat is at 9th lv, because you meet the requirements only at 7th lv). Either that or stagger your wizard lvs such that you take your 5th lv at lv7 (to take advantage of that bonus feat), but multiclassing a spellcaster is not without problems of its own.

With this benefit, you can now take graft flesh at 6th lv, and enter said prc at 7th lv (3 lvs faster!).

That is one of the more outlier scenarios I can think of.:)
Gonf
09-15-07, 02:20 AM All right all right, I'll stop with my munchining. The collective hatred from some of you posters have set upon the path of righteousness. :P

All kidding aside; yes I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes. Oddly enough, while I am a powergamer to a degree, I mainly want to get into this class for the flavor, but I found the typical 5th level entry tends to produce a laughably useless spellcaster.

Anyways, now that that idea is off my list of possible options, I'll look into other characters.

In any case, thank you all for both your information and opinions. I got a real kick reading some of them.

And I'll try to cut back on my powergaming a bit. :P
Eerongal
09-15-07, 09:52 AM All right all right, I'll stop with my munchining. The collective hatred from some of you posters have set upon the path of righteousness. :P

All kidding aside; yes I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes. Oddly enough, while I am a powergamer to a degree, I mainly want to get into this class for the flavor, but I found the typical 5th level entry tends to produce a laughably useless spellcaster.

Anyways, now that that idea is off my list of possible options, I'll look into other characters.

In any case, thank you all for both your information and opinions. I got a real kick reading some of them.

And I'll try to cut back on my powergaming a bit. :P

....Ultimate magus is considered weak? Last i checked it wasnt, if you use the practiced spellcaster trick to get 9th level spells on your wizardly side, and still cast as if a 13th level or so spontaneous caster. :P
kalstrand
09-15-07, 10:38 AM I think the feat in Cityscape requires another feat as a prereq. I don't have the book in front of me but if I recall correctly you can add 1 rank to a skill that is determined by the affiliation that you have joined.
StevenO
09-15-07, 02:50 PM All right all right, I'll stop with my munchining. The collective hatred from some of you posters have set upon the path of righteousness. :P

All kidding aside; yes I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes. Oddly enough, while I am a powergamer to a degree, I mainly want to get into this class for the flavor, but I found the typical 5th level entry tends to produce a laughably useless spellcaster.
...

Ultimate Magus weak?!? I should hope not as using Practiced Spellcaster would mean you only need to give up two wizard caster increases to gain nine levels of casting as a sorcerer. Of course in both cases your caster level is +4 higher because of the UM before you add the CL increase from Practice Spellcaster. If you threw a little Wild Magic into the mix you could be casting your wizard spells at a caster level between 24-27 at 20th level.

Allowing a character to enter UM with a Wiz3/Sor1 is just crazy. If you use the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" with that you only trade ONE level of wizard casting for Eight levels of Sorcerery plus all the other goodies of the UM.
deathbane
09-15-07, 06:13 PM If you threw a little Wild Magic into the mix you could be casting your wizard spells at a caster level between 24-27 at 20th level.

Allowing a character to enter UM with a Wiz3/Sor1 is just crazy. If you use the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" with that you only trade ONE level of wizard casting for Eight levels of Sorcerery plus all the other goodies of the UM.

Your caster level can't be higher than your HD according to the feat description, unless wild magic does something I don't know about. I have never used wild magic so I really don't know how it works.
StevenO
09-15-07, 10:31 PM Your caster level can't be higher than your HD according to the feat description, unless wild magic does something I don't know about. I have never used wild magic so I really don't know how it works.
Practiced Spellcaster can't raise your caster level higher than your HD but there are other things that do and you can stack them how you like. Wild Magic from the Wild Mage can adjust your caster level up or down while the Arcane Spell Power of the UM can boost your CL above your HD.

Here is the CL breakdown I was using for a CL 24-27 UM/Wild Mage at 20th level: CL 18 (base) + [2 to 4] (Practiced Spellcaster) + [1d6-3] (Wild Magic from Wild Mage in CAr, if negative you can use more PS to get CL to 20) + 4 Arcane Spell Power (from UM) = 24 (d6=1-3), 25 (d6=4), 26 (d6=5), or 27 (d6=6). With this you'd also have Sorcerer casting with a base CL 9 with an actual caster level that varies from 15 to 20 [9+4+4+(d6-3), max 20].
deathbane
09-16-07, 07:03 AM Practiced Spellcaster can't raise your caster level higher than your HD but there are other things that do and you can stack them how you like. Wild Magic from the Wild Mage can adjust your caster level up or down while the Arcane Spell Power of the UM can boost your CL above your HD.

Here is the CL breakdown I was using for a CL 24-27 UM/Wild Mage at 20th level: CL 18 (base) + [2 to 4] (Practiced Spellcaster) + [1d6-3] (Wild Magic from Wild Mage in CAr, if negative you can use more PS to get CL to 20) + 4 Arcane Spell Power (from UM) = 24 (d6=1-3), 25 (d6=4), 26 (d6=5), or 27 (d6=6). With this you'd also have Sorcerer casting with a base CL 9 with an actual caster level that varies from 15 to 20 [9+4+4+(d6-3), max 20].

Not bad, I figured that wild magic had something to do with it, but I could not find it before posted.
Dheran
10-22-07, 12:00 AM Why would you want to do this, except to get into a PrC early? I can think of one other reason: to take an Epic feat with a (WhateverSkill: 25 ranks) prerequisite at level 21.
risner
10-22-07, 02:01 AM I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes.

Two problems:
1) To get +1 rank in a single skill, you need to spend two (2) feats and have an organization that may or may not limit you.

2) Ultimate Magus is not the "most powerful class ever", but it absolutely not considered a weak prestige.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gonf 09-13-07, 05:05 PM	I was wondering if there is a feat to increase max ranks in a skill above normal for your level. I remember hearing something about it at one point, but I lost track of the thread. Anyways, if anyone has come across said feat or knows where I could find it please let me know.
Puca 09-13-07, 05:06 PM	To the best of my knowledge, no such feat exists. Nor should it.
Eerongal 09-13-07, 05:18 PM	To the best of my knowledge, no such feat exists. Nor should it. agreed. No such feat to my knowledge exists, and it certainly should not, because it makes it easier for you to qualify for prestiege classes at lower level. For example, a single feat that gave you a +1 to maximum skill ranks would knock off 1 level it takes to get the ranks to qualify for a prestiege class, which means a human who takes that as both his 1st level feats could potentially qualify for some prestiege classes by level 3. Skill rank requirements and BAB bonuses are the only way to limit entrance to a minimum level (usually 5) which is one reason why you'll never see a feat to do as such (among other problems if there was a feat to increase BAB :P)
MerlintheTuna 09-13-07, 07:08 PM	There's something in Cityscape that increases your max skill rank for one skill by 1. I'm not sure offhand whether it's a feat, an affiliation, or what.
StruckingFuggle 09-13-07, 08:15 PM	What if it had a prereq that meant you couldn't get it before level 6 or 9? Thus taking out much of the "early entry" requirements?
jaelis 09-13-07, 10:39 PM	Why would you want to do this, except to get into a PrC early? I suppose you could be after a synergy bonus at level 1, but that seems rather short-sighted. But for anything else, doesn't granting a bonus to your skill checks do as well or better? Note that a feat increasing your max ranks in a non-class skill to the class-skill limit is not unreasonable, and I think may exist.
yrogerg 09-13-07, 11:09 PM	Note that a feat increasing your max ranks in a non-class skill to the class-skill limit is not unreasonable, and I think may exist. Well, Educated makes all Knowledge: skills class skills. So feats that simply turn several cross-class skills into class skills aren't that unreasonable, either.
runestar 09-14-07, 03:05 AM	There's something in Cityscape that increases your max skill rank for one skill by 1. I'm not sure offhand whether it's a feat, an affiliation, or what. It is a guild benefit, IIRC. Raises the cap on one of your skills to 4+HD.
tarkin 09-14-07, 12:42 PM	Question: If you are NOT attempting to take a prestige class earlier than the prestige class designer wanted you too, then... why is a set bonus to the skill not satisfactory? Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you have some other reason besides trying to outright break the rules. Please tell me so.
Sunblast 09-14-07, 12:50 PM	Seriously, unless you're wanting to enter a prestige class early, there's no reason for this. Skill Focus ought to do the trick. What are you up to, exactly?
deathbane 09-14-07, 01:13 PM	Seriously, unless you're wanting to enter a prestige class early, there's no reason for this. Skill Focus ought to do the trick. What are you up to, exactly? Skill focus does not give you ranks. It only gives a higher check modifier.
maskimus 09-14-07, 01:28 PM	Skill focus does not give you ranks. It only gives a higher check modifier. True. But what most on this thread are asking the OP is why do you need more ranks early, if not to qualify for a PrC earlier than intended? If that is not the goal, then there are many ways to boost skills without extra ranks.
AtsuiShoto 09-14-07, 01:40 PM	What if it had a prereq that meant you couldn't get it before level 6 or 9? Thus taking out much of the "early entry" requirements? I think making it Level 6 wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't think of any PrC's that enter at 8th level because of an 11-ranks requirement. Of course, then why on earth would someone want this feat? I wouldn't. If desperate for skill bonuses, just use Skill Focus and a relevant +2/+2 feat for a total of +5. Then grab an item to boost it another few points. Actual skill ranks are expensive in comparison, because they're a limited commodity.
deathbane 09-14-07, 02:31 PM	True. But what most on this thread are asking the OP is why do you need more ranks early, if not to qualify for a PrC earlier than intended? If that is not the goal, then there are many ways to boost skills without extra ranks. Sorry about that. I misunderstood your intentions.
Eerongal 09-14-07, 03:09 PM	I think making it Level 6 wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't think of any PrC's that enter at 8th level because of an 11-ranks requirement. Of course, then why on earth would someone want this feat? I wouldn't. If desperate for skill bonuses, just use Skill Focus and a relevant +2/+2 feat for a total of +5. Then grab an item to boost it another few points. Actual skill ranks are expensive in comparison, because they're a limited commodity. Foclocaun (spelling?) lyrist requires 13 ranks in various skills.
tarkin 09-14-07, 03:20 PM	And the Game designer that created that PrC did so intentionally. What, you thought he wrote 13 ranks without thinking it through? The guy that wrote what you want to do was effectively saying: "Hey, this is TOO powerfull at low levels. You can only get it at higher levels". OK, maybe he was wrong about that class. What makes you think that it is OK to directly change that for ALL Prestige Classes without even a thought. Look, if you think a specific Prestige Class is weak and is fair to take at lower levels, then hey, change the pre-reqs for that particular Prestige class. In a Power Game, that might be appropriate. But don't go willy nilly making all skill based PrCs easier to get into. Not unless you don't care at all about game balance.
MerlintheTuna 09-14-07, 05:26 PM	True. But what most on this thread are asking the OP is why do you need more ranks early, if not to qualify for a PrC earlier than intended?Grabbing a feat early or grabbing a skill trick early comes to mind.
runestar 09-14-07, 10:16 PM	I think making it Level 6 wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't think of any PrC's that enter at 8th level because of an 11-ranks requirement. One example might be the fleshwarper prc from lords of madness, which requires the graft flesh feat, which in turn requires 10 ranks in heal, meaning the earliest you can enter the prc is at lv10 (since the soonest you can take said feat is at 9th lv, because you meet the requirements only at 7th lv). Either that or stagger your wizard lvs such that you take your 5th lv at lv7 (to take advantage of that bonus feat), but multiclassing a spellcaster is not without problems of its own. With this benefit, you can now take graft flesh at 6th lv, and enter said prc at 7th lv (3 lvs faster!). That is one of the more outlier scenarios I can think of.:)
Gonf 09-15-07, 02:20 AM	All right all right, I'll stop with my munchining. The collective hatred from some of you posters have set upon the path of righteousness. :P All kidding aside; yes I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes. Oddly enough, while I am a powergamer to a degree, I mainly want to get into this class for the flavor, but I found the typical 5th level entry tends to produce a laughably useless spellcaster. Anyways, now that that idea is off my list of possible options, I'll look into other characters. In any case, thank you all for both your information and opinions. I got a real kick reading some of them. And I'll try to cut back on my powergaming a bit. :P
Eerongal 09-15-07, 09:52 AM	All right all right, I'll stop with my munchining. The collective hatred from some of you posters have set upon the path of righteousness. :P All kidding aside; yes I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes. Oddly enough, while I am a powergamer to a degree, I mainly want to get into this class for the flavor, but I found the typical 5th level entry tends to produce a laughably useless spellcaster. Anyways, now that that idea is off my list of possible options, I'll look into other characters. In any case, thank you all for both your information and opinions. I got a real kick reading some of them. And I'll try to cut back on my powergaming a bit. :P ....Ultimate magus is considered weak? Last i checked it wasnt, if you use the practiced spellcaster trick to get 9th level spells on your wizardly side, and still cast as if a 13th level or so spontaneous caster. :P
kalstrand 09-15-07, 10:38 AM	I think the feat in Cityscape requires another feat as a prereq. I don't have the book in front of me but if I recall correctly you can add 1 rank to a skill that is determined by the affiliation that you have joined.
StevenO 09-15-07, 02:50 PM	All right all right, I'll stop with my munchining. The collective hatred from some of you posters have set upon the path of righteousness. :P All kidding aside; yes I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes. Oddly enough, while I am a powergamer to a degree, I mainly want to get into this class for the flavor, but I found the typical 5th level entry tends to produce a laughably useless spellcaster. ... Ultimate Magus weak?!? I should hope not as using Practiced Spellcaster would mean you only need to give up two wizard caster increases to gain nine levels of casting as a sorcerer. Of course in both cases your caster level is +4 higher because of the UM before you add the CL increase from Practice Spellcaster. If you threw a little Wild Magic into the mix you could be casting your wizard spells at a caster level between 24-27 at 20th level. Allowing a character to enter UM with a Wiz3/Sor1 is just crazy. If you use the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" with that you only trade ONE level of wizard casting for Eight levels of Sorcerery plus all the other goodies of the UM.
deathbane 09-15-07, 06:13 PM	If you threw a little Wild Magic into the mix you could be casting your wizard spells at a caster level between 24-27 at 20th level. Allowing a character to enter UM with a Wiz3/Sor1 is just crazy. If you use the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" with that you only trade ONE level of wizard casting for Eight levels of Sorcerery plus all the other goodies of the UM. Your caster level can't be higher than your HD according to the feat description, unless wild magic does something I don't know about. I have never used wild magic so I really don't know how it works.
StevenO 09-15-07, 10:31 PM	Your caster level can't be higher than your HD according to the feat description, unless wild magic does something I don't know about. I have never used wild magic so I really don't know how it works. Practiced Spellcaster can't raise your caster level higher than your HD but there are other things that do and you can stack them how you like. Wild Magic from the Wild Mage can adjust your caster level up or down while the Arcane Spell Power of the UM can boost your CL above your HD. Here is the CL breakdown I was using for a CL 24-27 UM/Wild Mage at 20th level: CL 18 (base) + [2 to 4] (Practiced Spellcaster) + [1d6-3] (Wild Magic from Wild Mage in CAr, if negative you can use more PS to get CL to 20) + 4 Arcane Spell Power (from UM) = 24 (d6=1-3), 25 (d6=4), 26 (d6=5), or 27 (d6=6). With this you'd also have Sorcerer casting with a base CL 9 with an actual caster level that varies from 15 to 20 [9+4+4+(d6-3), max 20].
deathbane 09-16-07, 07:03 AM	Practiced Spellcaster can't raise your caster level higher than your HD but there are other things that do and you can stack them how you like. Wild Magic from the Wild Mage can adjust your caster level up or down while the Arcane Spell Power of the UM can boost your CL above your HD. Here is the CL breakdown I was using for a CL 24-27 UM/Wild Mage at 20th level: CL 18 (base) + [2 to 4] (Practiced Spellcaster) + [1d6-3] (Wild Magic from Wild Mage in CAr, if negative you can use more PS to get CL to 20) + 4 Arcane Spell Power (from UM) = 24 (d6=1-3), 25 (d6=4), 26 (d6=5), or 27 (d6=6). With this you'd also have Sorcerer casting with a base CL 9 with an actual caster level that varies from 15 to 20 [9+4+4+(d6-3), max 20]. Not bad, I figured that wild magic had something to do with it, but I could not find it before posted.
Dheran 10-22-07, 12:00 AM	Why would you want to do this, except to get into a PrC early? I can think of one other reason: to take an Epic feat with a (WhateverSkill: 25 ranks) prerequisite at level 21.
risner 10-22-07, 02:01 AM	I was interested in the subject to get into a prestige class at an earlier level. The goal being the Ultimate Magus from the complete mage. This is generally seen to be a pretty weak prestige class, as are many of the theurgic classes. Two problems: 1) To get +1 rank in a single skill, you need to spend two (2) feats and have an organization that may or may not limit you. 2) Ultimate Magus is not the "most powerful class ever", but it absolutely not considered a weak prestige.