Feats and Max Dex [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feats and Max Dex [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hangman1
04-21-07, 06:36 PM I want to give my Paladin Two-Weapon Fighting (for shield maneuvers) but I don't know if it works with heavy armor. Dex requirement is 15, but full plate has max dex of 1, meaning a dex of 12. Does anyone know if Max Dex Bonus applies to feat prerequisites? Official sources would be best but a preponderance of house rules would work in a pinch.
Lucas Blackstone
04-21-07, 06:40 PM Your Max Dex bonus allowed is for AC. It's not a limit on your dex score in the armor. Your reflex saves, for instance, also are not lowered.
hangman1
04-21-07, 06:43 PM That doesn't really make sense to me, but if that is the rule, I'll go with it.
Wizardmon
04-21-07, 06:49 PM That doesn't really make sense to me, but if that is the rule, I'll go with it.
It is.
hangman1
04-21-07, 06:53 PM The rule helps, so I'll certainly take it, but does anyone else feel that it is completely illogical? Particularly not having an effect on reflex saves?
Wizardmon
04-21-07, 07:06 PM The rule helps, so I'll certainly take it, but does anyone else feel that it is completely illogical? Particularly not having an effect on reflex saves?

I myself am boggled by the reflex saves issue. Now that you mention it, it does seem a bit illogical not to make it apply accross the board, but that might be viewed as too strong of a penalty to armor users.

However, I do not see the confiction with Max Dex and dexterity prerequites.
hangman1
04-21-07, 07:24 PM The logic is that if your dexterity is limited by your armor, you should not be able to perform the maneuvers neccessary to take advantage of those feats, like spells. If combat reflexes requires you to move quickly and twist and turn from a person running by you on one side to a person running by you on another, then your restrictive armor should prevent it, no matter how fast and agile you would be without it.

If it takes a 15 dex to fight with two weapons, to me it means you have to be flexible and quick on your feet. If the armor restricts movement, it should have the same effect as having a lower dex.

I don't know why I am trying to justify a penalty for my own character, but the logic seems clear.

I am sure you are correct that it is trying to reduce the penalty for armor users.
Lucas Blackstone
04-21-07, 08:42 PM Dexterity is composed of many facets. Hand- Eye Coordination, Reflexes, Agility, and Balance. Armor restricts some of these things but not the others. Your Dexterity isn't reduced when you wear armor, but there are restrictions to armor. Movement, AC bonus from Dex, and skill check penalties.
Someone
04-22-07, 12:20 AM It doesn't really require Dex 15 to fight with two weapons. Its just characters with sufficient coordination (Dex 15 or higher) can do so well (i.e. not at huge to-hit penalty). Armor doesn't make a character any less coordinated, nor does it slow down their reaction time (initiative) or reflexes (with a capital R).
hangman1
04-22-07, 11:24 AM But it does reduce how quickly those reflexes can be exercised. If it slows down your movement, it should also slow down how quickly you can dive under a table, or roll under a lightning bolt. Heavy armor restricts range of movement, that is why you can't move your full speed regardless of encumberance, it is a matter of restrictiveness, not weight, so it should affect everything but hand eye coordination. That logic is what informs the armor restrictions for spellcasters, rangers, barbarians, etc. If it didn't affect your range of movement, arcane spellcasters could wear full plate without any problems.

Its moot though, the rules are good for the player as is.
Ainaelin
04-22-07, 11:57 AM I agree with you, hagman1, but...

Never look for logic in a RPG. You'll be crazy soon enough. :P
Someone
04-22-07, 01:44 PM A "normal" Reflex save has nothing to do with diving out of the way, or going Matrix dodging. Those are better examples of Evasion, and that ability generally can't be done in heavy armor anyway.

A Reflex save could be as simple as holding one's breath so that you don't breathe in the flames of a fireball, or shutting your eyes so that the black dragon's breath doesn't splash in your eyes. Armor doesn't stop you from doing stuff like that.
Novacat
04-22-07, 04:18 PM Never look for logic in a RPG.

Best advice I've seen all day. All RPGs must necessarily make sacrifices of reason, and leaps in logic in order to be simple enough to be fun. Allowing too much logic and realism into the game will unbalance it like a spinning plate.
Egres
04-22-07, 06:06 PM The rule helps, so I'll certainly take it, but does anyone else feel that it is completely illogical? Particularly not having an effect on reflex saves?

You are talking about logic in a game where you can run from left to right and then jump from right to left, like Super Mario?
penchant
04-22-07, 06:06 PM besides, if you argue that a suit of full plate would prevent you from dodging a fireball, then you could open the can of worms of why doesn't the suit of full plate protect you FROM the fireball? Full plate is multi layered with tunic and breeches, padded armor underneath, chainmail and plating on top. A full helm with narrow slots for seeing round out the set. This should certainly protect you from an instantaneous fire or ice effect, plus acid. Hell even sonic damage should be reduced. Then you ask why doesn't a shield help with any of these things?

Then you can go and use the Armor as DR section in the UA, add some energy resistance for each type of armor and recalibrate each spell so it interacts correctly with each item...

Then I remember I have school, a family and a full time job and I go back to normal.
hangman1
04-22-07, 07:50 PM Your absolutely right, which is why I do use the DR variant from UA, and armor DR should work against energy attacks (except for electricity, which it should intensify). Enchantment should do something against energy attacks too. I don't imagine that would require a whole lot more math. How about this:

Full Plate +5 = AC 9 with DR 4/ +5 enchantment. Fireball (or acid, or sonic ball) does 25 pts of damage - 9 = 13. Whew, tough.

Electricity would be more problematic, you'd have to take into account the armor weight and subtract it from the enchantment. How about you take 1 additional point of damage per DR point of the armor for each damage die of the electricity spell, then subtract the enchantment.

Full Plate +5 AC +9 DR 4/. A 10d lighting bolt does 33 points of damage + (4x10) -5 = 68 pts of damage.

Not good for your fighter when you fight the blue dragon, but would be pretty flavorful and make some sense.

Hell, the old armor system had different bonuses versus different classes of weapons (which I never used, but it was cool that it was there).

Of course I wouldn't suggest these systems, because obviously simplicty is what we are looking for in a game with 62 books, 2 monthly magazines, 800 feats, 38 different magic and psionic systems, 90 core classes, 312 prestige classes and 2325 spells, psionic abilities, infusions, maneuvers, stances, emanations, namings, and whatever it is warlocks cast.

Besides, I wasn't asking everything to be logical, it just seemed that if your armor restricted your dex for one thing, it should restrict it for others.
Ainaelin
04-27-07, 07:22 PM I kinda agree with your signatures, Novacat. ;)

As for the DR, thing. The old system was dropped because however cool it was, it was complex and did not add much to the game.
As for simplicity... The numbers you provided, Hangman1, are mainly lots of choices. They are not complexified rules. The rules are already complex enough, and the combats are already quite long, so the rules won't stand for changes that add up nothing much in terms of fun, but quite a lot in terms of complexity and length. That's one way to look at it, and I think that's the way the authors had in mind.

Now, if you want to houserule that, that's your job as a DM, your right, and your fun. Besides 25-9=16, not 13. ;)
jaelis
04-28-07, 01:04 PM On another note, the OP might want to look at the Agile Shield Fighter feat. It works like TWF for shields, but there's no Dex requirement. There's also no improved versions, which can be a bummer, but so it goes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hangman1 04-21-07, 06:36 PM	I want to give my Paladin Two-Weapon Fighting (for shield maneuvers) but I don't know if it works with heavy armor. Dex requirement is 15, but full plate has max dex of 1, meaning a dex of 12. Does anyone know if Max Dex Bonus applies to feat prerequisites? Official sources would be best but a preponderance of house rules would work in a pinch.
Lucas Blackstone 04-21-07, 06:40 PM	Your Max Dex bonus allowed is for AC. It's not a limit on your dex score in the armor. Your reflex saves, for instance, also are not lowered.
hangman1 04-21-07, 06:43 PM	That doesn't really make sense to me, but if that is the rule, I'll go with it.
Wizardmon 04-21-07, 06:49 PM	That doesn't really make sense to me, but if that is the rule, I'll go with it. It is.
hangman1 04-21-07, 06:53 PM	The rule helps, so I'll certainly take it, but does anyone else feel that it is completely illogical? Particularly not having an effect on reflex saves?
Wizardmon 04-21-07, 07:06 PM	The rule helps, so I'll certainly take it, but does anyone else feel that it is completely illogical? Particularly not having an effect on reflex saves? I myself am boggled by the reflex saves issue. Now that you mention it, it does seem a bit illogical not to make it apply accross the board, but that might be viewed as too strong of a penalty to armor users. However, I do not see the confiction with Max Dex and dexterity prerequites.
hangman1 04-21-07, 07:24 PM	The logic is that if your dexterity is limited by your armor, you should not be able to perform the maneuvers neccessary to take advantage of those feats, like spells. If combat reflexes requires you to move quickly and twist and turn from a person running by you on one side to a person running by you on another, then your restrictive armor should prevent it, no matter how fast and agile you would be without it. If it takes a 15 dex to fight with two weapons, to me it means you have to be flexible and quick on your feet. If the armor restricts movement, it should have the same effect as having a lower dex. I don't know why I am trying to justify a penalty for my own character, but the logic seems clear. I am sure you are correct that it is trying to reduce the penalty for armor users.
Lucas Blackstone 04-21-07, 08:42 PM	Dexterity is composed of many facets. Hand- Eye Coordination, Reflexes, Agility, and Balance. Armor restricts some of these things but not the others. Your Dexterity isn't reduced when you wear armor, but there are restrictions to armor. Movement, AC bonus from Dex, and skill check penalties.
Someone 04-22-07, 12:20 AM	It doesn't really require Dex 15 to fight with two weapons. Its just characters with sufficient coordination (Dex 15 or higher) can do so well (i.e. not at huge to-hit penalty). Armor doesn't make a character any less coordinated, nor does it slow down their reaction time (initiative) or reflexes (with a capital R).
hangman1 04-22-07, 11:24 AM	But it does reduce how quickly those reflexes can be exercised. If it slows down your movement, it should also slow down how quickly you can dive under a table, or roll under a lightning bolt. Heavy armor restricts range of movement, that is why you can't move your full speed regardless of encumberance, it is a matter of restrictiveness, not weight, so it should affect everything but hand eye coordination. That logic is what informs the armor restrictions for spellcasters, rangers, barbarians, etc. If it didn't affect your range of movement, arcane spellcasters could wear full plate without any problems. Its moot though, the rules are good for the player as is.
Ainaelin 04-22-07, 11:57 AM	I agree with you, hagman1, but... Never look for logic in a RPG. You'll be crazy soon enough. :P
Someone 04-22-07, 01:44 PM	A "normal" Reflex save has nothing to do with diving out of the way, or going Matrix dodging. Those are better examples of Evasion, and that ability generally can't be done in heavy armor anyway. A Reflex save could be as simple as holding one's breath so that you don't breathe in the flames of a fireball, or shutting your eyes so that the black dragon's breath doesn't splash in your eyes. Armor doesn't stop you from doing stuff like that.
Novacat 04-22-07, 04:18 PM	Never look for logic in a RPG. Best advice I've seen all day. All RPGs must necessarily make sacrifices of reason, and leaps in logic in order to be simple enough to be fun. Allowing too much logic and realism into the game will unbalance it like a spinning plate.
Egres 04-22-07, 06:06 PM	The rule helps, so I'll certainly take it, but does anyone else feel that it is completely illogical? Particularly not having an effect on reflex saves? You are talking about logic in a game where you can run from left to right and then jump from right to left, like Super Mario?
penchant 04-22-07, 06:06 PM	besides, if you argue that a suit of full plate would prevent you from dodging a fireball, then you could open the can of worms of why doesn't the suit of full plate protect you FROM the fireball? Full plate is multi layered with tunic and breeches, padded armor underneath, chainmail and plating on top. A full helm with narrow slots for seeing round out the set. This should certainly protect you from an instantaneous fire or ice effect, plus acid. Hell even sonic damage should be reduced. Then you ask why doesn't a shield help with any of these things? Then you can go and use the Armor as DR section in the UA, add some energy resistance for each type of armor and recalibrate each spell so it interacts correctly with each item... Then I remember I have school, a family and a full time job and I go back to normal.
hangman1 04-22-07, 07:50 PM	Your absolutely right, which is why I do use the DR variant from UA, and armor DR should work against energy attacks (except for electricity, which it should intensify). Enchantment should do something against energy attacks too. I don't imagine that would require a whole lot more math. How about this: Full Plate +5 = AC 9 with DR 4/ +5 enchantment. Fireball (or acid, or sonic ball) does 25 pts of damage - 9 = 13. Whew, tough. Electricity would be more problematic, you'd have to take into account the armor weight and subtract it from the enchantment. How about you take 1 additional point of damage per DR point of the armor for each damage die of the electricity spell, then subtract the enchantment. Full Plate +5 AC +9 DR 4/. A 10d lighting bolt does 33 points of damage + (4x10) -5 = 68 pts of damage. Not good for your fighter when you fight the blue dragon, but would be pretty flavorful and make some sense. Hell, the old armor system had different bonuses versus different classes of weapons (which I never used, but it was cool that it was there). Of course I wouldn't suggest these systems, because obviously simplicty is what we are looking for in a game with 62 books, 2 monthly magazines, 800 feats, 38 different magic and psionic systems, 90 core classes, 312 prestige classes and 2325 spells, psionic abilities, infusions, maneuvers, stances, emanations, namings, and whatever it is warlocks cast. Besides, I wasn't asking everything to be logical, it just seemed that if your armor restricted your dex for one thing, it should restrict it for others.
Ainaelin 04-27-07, 07:22 PM	I kinda agree with your signatures, Novacat. ;) As for the DR, thing. The old system was dropped because however cool it was, it was complex and did not add much to the game. As for simplicity... The numbers you provided, Hangman1, are mainly lots of choices. They are not complexified rules. The rules are already complex enough, and the combats are already quite long, so the rules won't stand for changes that add up nothing much in terms of fun, but quite a lot in terms of complexity and length. That's one way to look at it, and I think that's the way the authors had in mind. Now, if you want to houserule that, that's your job as a DM, your right, and your fun. Besides 25-9=16, not 13. ;)
jaelis 04-28-07, 01:04 PM	On another note, the OP might want to look at the Agile Shield Fighter feat. It works like TWF for shields, but there's no Dex requirement. There's also no improved versions, which can be a bummer, but so it goes.