feats for dwarf fighter. [Archive] - Wizards Community

feats for dwarf fighter. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xpochian
11-17-07, 03:34 AM assuming strength is 14, what would be the better choice for a dwarf that is the group's primary melee character, assuming a low level like fighter 2?

1) two-weapon fighting and oversize two-weapon fighting, dual weilding two dwarven waraxes at -2/-2 even.

or

2) power attack and weapon focus with a dwarven waraxe, held two-handed.

i personally feel the second, as for the same penality -2, will boost damage by +4, and when added with the +3 from two-handing the waraxe, could really show some solid damage for such low levels, barring a trip to the char-op. boards. however, the first will on average have a penalty giving them a poor attack bonus, something like +0/+0 and requiring a full attack to pull off.

additionally, although the damage for the first could be higher (d10+2 / d10+1) i feel the second would give higher and more consistent results, being (d10+7) assuming a standard power attack of +4.

this player is new to 3e and i'm hoping to give him some insight into the game's combat mechanics, as he's relying heavily on his 2e knowledge (and it's ultra-broken duel-wielding mechanic)

thanks!
draco1119
11-17-07, 03:42 AM In terms of damage dealing, the second option is probably your best bet. Why do you have to choose between them, though? IIRC, TWF works on double weapons.
runestar
11-17-07, 03:57 AM TWFing is generally sub-optimal for fighters unless you can access some sort of ability which triggers off hitting. I would suggest 2-handed fighting as well, less feat investment, and better returns.:)
Garonak
11-17-07, 06:31 AM Remember if you use an exotic one-handed weapon in two hands and take a lvl Exotic Weapon master you get Uncanny Blow which doubles your strength. 14 in str wwould be +4.
Animated Shield, shield spec and shield ward will be very useful as soon as you can get it. Also, Dwarf Fighter Racial substituition lvls from Races of Stone is worth taking a look at.
StevenO
11-17-07, 03:44 PM If you are the fighter and only have STR 14 two-weapon fighting shouldn't even be an option for you. Unless you are gaining TWF from some bonus source (Ranger) don't forget that it has a DEX 15 prereq and if I'm making a figher build, especially for a dwarf, you'd better believe that is going into STR.

TWF is generally best for high DEX character with a bonus to damage. Unless you are playing very high stat game your fighters will typically be better off going from 2HF if you want damage or even sword and board for defense.

If you are going the TWF route I'd definitely prefer Oversized TWF over an exotic double weapon. Besides the War Axe giving you a step up in damage being able to choose the weapon for each side offers a lot more versatility that your typical double-weapon provides. As a side note I personally add a few houserules to make double-weapons more viable.
xpochian
11-17-07, 04:10 PM hey all, thanks for the hasty replies!

i should note i'm the DM for this player, and trying to encourage him into something more 'viable' as I don't want him overshadowed by the other members of the party (a fairly optimized cleric of lathander, a warlock and a maxed-out-dex halfling rogue).

also, i should mention i meant the dwarven waraxe and not that dwarven two-bladed weapon-thingy - i meant the one that does a d10 and is exotic, but dwarves treat as martial. and one more thing, and i'm sorry about this, his Str and Dex are both 15.

i can see how he thinks wielding two of these would result in some pretty big damage, but i tried to hint that his dex isn't high enough to follow up the entire chain of TWF feats, asides from just getting into the entry-level ones and then ending.

one last thing, is this why people vastly prefer a 2hand weapon to TWF? the fact that although they're only about 2 or three points off attack-wise, one gives vastly better damage?
StevenO
11-17-07, 04:33 PM This does illustrate why 2HW fighting is generally prefered to TWF. 2HF is generally much more accurate, doesn't have nearly the feat and stat requirements to be good, and is also much cheaper as you only have one weapon to improve instead of two.
draco1119
11-18-07, 04:04 AM one last thing, is this why people vastly prefer a 2hand weapon to TWF? the fact that although they're only about 2 or three points off attack-wise, one gives vastly better damage?
You'll hit about as often with one weapon as with two You add STR bonus x1.5 wielding a 2H weapon If you Power Attack, you add 2 points to damage for every 1 taken off attack If you Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), you add 3 points of damage per 1 point of attack lost
FrostHammer
11-18-07, 04:41 AM 4 actually, not 3.
draco1119
11-18-07, 06:01 AM 4 actually, not 3.
Nope, it really is 3. Look it up. :)

2 with a one-handed weapon, or 3 with either a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, or a 2H weapon...
Garonak
11-18-07, 06:30 AM Nope, it really is 3. Look it up. :)

2 with a one-handed weapon, or 3 with either a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, or a 2H weapon...

Look up the errata... It's now +100%, not 3. Which means 2:1 with one handed, 4:1 with two-handed, 6:1 Frenzied Berserker two handed
draco1119
11-18-07, 08:31 AM Look up the errata... It's now +100%, not 3. Which means 2:1 with one handed, 4:1 with two-handed, 6:1 Frenzied Berserker two handed
Oops. Didn't know it had been errata'd. Thanks.

Suddenly I'm liking my Leap of the Heavens choice that much more... :D
JTalbain
11-18-07, 09:12 AM The real advantage to picking up TWF instead would be if the fights included lots of instances with multiple, small, easily dispatched monsters. If that is the case, you might want to encourage him to take Cleave instead of Weapon Focus with the single axe build.

Seriously though, you might be better off letting him take 2-weapon fighting just to see if it works for him, but in general, Power Attack is too good an option to pass up. The ability to turn every situational to-hit bonus into liquid damage is about as powerful an ability as melee ever gets.
Garonak
11-18-07, 03:49 PM I have to mention it again: Dwarf racial subst lvl:
d12, know (dung.) as class skill
lvl 1: Axefocus (like weapon focus, except it works for all phb axes), lose the normal fighter feat
lvl 2: extra thingies against orcs, lose feat
lvl 8: +1 AC, lose feat

My Dwarf Fighter build looks like this:
1. Dwarf fighter, Axefocus, Dwarven Armor Prof - RoS
2. Shield Spec (Heavy) - PHB2
3. Shield Ward - PHB2
4. Weapon Spec (Dwarven WAxe)
6. Heavy Armor Opt - RoS, Power Attack
8. Exotic Weapon Master: Uncanny Blow (Having gotten hold of an animated shield)
9. Dwarf Fighter 8, Greater HAOpt - RoS
11. Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) - PHB2
Bad planning led to:
12. Ranger 1 - skills, Endurance
13. Ranger 2 - Skills
14. Deep Warden

With a Battle Armor +1 (RoS), Animated Shield+1, dex+1, Ring of Prot+1 and Natural Armor +1 the AC becomes: 29, touch 16, ff 28. Of course he got more ac equipemnt, but that's what I remember at the moment.
xpochian
11-22-07, 10:49 PM lots of instances with multiple, small, easily dispatched monsters. If that is the case, you might want to encourage him to take Cleave

so far, since they're relatively new to the game (3e anyhow) and i want everyone to be able to participate, the battles have thus far been several goblins or centipedes, as opposed to a single orc warrior. i've suggested cleave would work well, even at mid evels.

Power Attack is too good an option to pass up. The ability to turn every situational to-hit bonus into liquid damage is about as powerful an ability as melee ever gets.

ironically, he regrets taking power attack as his first feat and wants to swap it for two-weapon fighting. he has a plan he said that enables him to dual-wield dwarven waraxes with a buckler. i said it's a good idea, but i really don't want people getting upset at their creations in 3 levels, as i won't be allowing rebuilds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xpochian 11-17-07, 03:34 AM	assuming strength is 14, what would be the better choice for a dwarf that is the group's primary melee character, assuming a low level like fighter 2? 1) two-weapon fighting and oversize two-weapon fighting, dual weilding two dwarven waraxes at -2/-2 even. or 2) power attack and weapon focus with a dwarven waraxe, held two-handed. i personally feel the second, as for the same penality -2, will boost damage by +4, and when added with the +3 from two-handing the waraxe, could really show some solid damage for such low levels, barring a trip to the char-op. boards. however, the first will on average have a penalty giving them a poor attack bonus, something like +0/+0 and requiring a full attack to pull off. additionally, although the damage for the first could be higher (d10+2 / d10+1) i feel the second would give higher and more consistent results, being (d10+7) assuming a standard power attack of +4. this player is new to 3e and i'm hoping to give him some insight into the game's combat mechanics, as he's relying heavily on his 2e knowledge (and it's ultra-broken duel-wielding mechanic) thanks!
draco1119 11-17-07, 03:42 AM	In terms of damage dealing, the second option is probably your best bet. Why do you have to choose between them, though? IIRC, TWF works on double weapons.
runestar 11-17-07, 03:57 AM	TWFing is generally sub-optimal for fighters unless you can access some sort of ability which triggers off hitting. I would suggest 2-handed fighting as well, less feat investment, and better returns.:)
Garonak 11-17-07, 06:31 AM	Remember if you use an exotic one-handed weapon in two hands and take a lvl Exotic Weapon master you get Uncanny Blow which doubles your strength. 14 in str wwould be +4. Animated Shield, shield spec and shield ward will be very useful as soon as you can get it. Also, Dwarf Fighter Racial substituition lvls from Races of Stone is worth taking a look at.
StevenO 11-17-07, 03:44 PM	If you are the fighter and only have STR 14 two-weapon fighting shouldn't even be an option for you. Unless you are gaining TWF from some bonus source (Ranger) don't forget that it has a DEX 15 prereq and if I'm making a figher build, especially for a dwarf, you'd better believe that is going into STR. TWF is generally best for high DEX character with a bonus to damage. Unless you are playing very high stat game your fighters will typically be better off going from 2HF if you want damage or even sword and board for defense. If you are going the TWF route I'd definitely prefer Oversized TWF over an exotic double weapon. Besides the War Axe giving you a step up in damage being able to choose the weapon for each side offers a lot more versatility that your typical double-weapon provides. As a side note I personally add a few houserules to make double-weapons more viable.
xpochian 11-17-07, 04:10 PM	hey all, thanks for the hasty replies! i should note i'm the DM for this player, and trying to encourage him into something more 'viable' as I don't want him overshadowed by the other members of the party (a fairly optimized cleric of lathander, a warlock and a maxed-out-dex halfling rogue). also, i should mention i meant the dwarven waraxe and not that dwarven two-bladed weapon-thingy - i meant the one that does a d10 and is exotic, but dwarves treat as martial. and one more thing, and i'm sorry about this, his Str and Dex are both 15. i can see how he thinks wielding two of these would result in some pretty big damage, but i tried to hint that his dex isn't high enough to follow up the entire chain of TWF feats, asides from just getting into the entry-level ones and then ending. one last thing, is this why people vastly prefer a 2hand weapon to TWF? the fact that although they're only about 2 or three points off attack-wise, one gives vastly better damage?
StevenO 11-17-07, 04:33 PM	This does illustrate why 2HW fighting is generally prefered to TWF. 2HF is generally much more accurate, doesn't have nearly the feat and stat requirements to be good, and is also much cheaper as you only have one weapon to improve instead of two.
draco1119 11-18-07, 04:04 AM	one last thing, is this why people vastly prefer a 2hand weapon to TWF? the fact that although they're only about 2 or three points off attack-wise, one gives vastly better damage? You'll hit about as often with one weapon as with two You add STR bonus x1.5 wielding a 2H weapon If you Power Attack, you add 2 points to damage for every 1 taken off attack If you Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), you add 3 points of damage per 1 point of attack lost
FrostHammer 11-18-07, 04:41 AM	4 actually, not 3.
draco1119 11-18-07, 06:01 AM	4 actually, not 3. Nope, it really is 3. Look it up. :) 2 with a one-handed weapon, or 3 with either a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, or a 2H weapon...
Garonak 11-18-07, 06:30 AM	Nope, it really is 3. Look it up. :) 2 with a one-handed weapon, or 3 with either a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, or a 2H weapon... Look up the errata... It's now +100%, not 3. Which means 2:1 with one handed, 4:1 with two-handed, 6:1 Frenzied Berserker two handed
draco1119 11-18-07, 08:31 AM	Look up the errata... It's now +100%, not 3. Which means 2:1 with one handed, 4:1 with two-handed, 6:1 Frenzied Berserker two handed Oops. Didn't know it had been errata'd. Thanks. Suddenly I'm liking my Leap of the Heavens choice that much more... :D
JTalbain 11-18-07, 09:12 AM	The real advantage to picking up TWF instead would be if the fights included lots of instances with multiple, small, easily dispatched monsters. If that is the case, you might want to encourage him to take Cleave instead of Weapon Focus with the single axe build. Seriously though, you might be better off letting him take 2-weapon fighting just to see if it works for him, but in general, Power Attack is too good an option to pass up. The ability to turn every situational to-hit bonus into liquid damage is about as powerful an ability as melee ever gets.
Garonak 11-18-07, 03:49 PM	I have to mention it again: Dwarf racial subst lvl: d12, know (dung.) as class skill lvl 1: Axefocus (like weapon focus, except it works for all phb axes), lose the normal fighter feat lvl 2: extra thingies against orcs, lose feat lvl 8: +1 AC, lose feat My Dwarf Fighter build looks like this: 1. Dwarf fighter, Axefocus, Dwarven Armor Prof - RoS 2. Shield Spec (Heavy) - PHB2 3. Shield Ward - PHB2 4. Weapon Spec (Dwarven WAxe) 6. Heavy Armor Opt - RoS, Power Attack 8. Exotic Weapon Master: Uncanny Blow (Having gotten hold of an animated shield) 9. Dwarf Fighter 8, Greater HAOpt - RoS 11. Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) - PHB2 Bad planning led to: 12. Ranger 1 - skills, Endurance 13. Ranger 2 - Skills 14. Deep Warden With a Battle Armor +1 (RoS), Animated Shield+1, dex+1, Ring of Prot+1 and Natural Armor +1 the AC becomes: 29, touch 16, ff 28. Of course he got more ac equipemnt, but that's what I remember at the moment.
xpochian 11-22-07, 10:49 PM	lots of instances with multiple, small, easily dispatched monsters. If that is the case, you might want to encourage him to take Cleave so far, since they're relatively new to the game (3e anyhow) and i want everyone to be able to participate, the battles have thus far been several goblins or centipedes, as opposed to a single orc warrior. i've suggested cleave would work well, even at mid evels. Power Attack is too good an option to pass up. The ability to turn every situational to-hit bonus into liquid damage is about as powerful an ability as melee ever gets. ironically, he regrets taking power attack as his first feat and wants to swap it for two-weapon fighting. he has a plan he said that enables him to dual-wield dwarven waraxes with a buckler. i said it's a good idea, but i really don't want people getting upset at their creations in 3 levels, as i won't be allowing rebuilds.