Feats for Monks... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feats for Monks... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Podo
03-06-07, 10:08 PM With using just the PHB v3.5, what feats are a must for monks?:)
WinterPsionic
03-06-07, 10:26 PM With using just the PHB v3.5, what feats are a must for monks?:)

Kinda belongs on the char op board but whatever...

I'd say Imp Init, the whole Imp Unarmed Strike line, and I guess that's it....I suppose you could add in Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexs for fun...
Velcro Zipper
03-06-07, 10:56 PM I'm currently playing an elf monk in a game where we use only the core books (PHB, DMG, MM.) Combat Expertise and Dodge have greatly improved my AC. My Attack Bonus takes a hit due to Com. Exp., but Weapon Finesse counters that somewhat. I recommend Imp. Disarm for one of your bonus feats. Coupled with a Sai, you gain a +8 to Disarm attempts. If your DM allows it, the Monster Manual contains a General feat called Imp. Natural Attack. Imp. Natural Attack allows you to do unarmed damage as if you were a size category larger. Ability Focus from the same book, can raise your Stunning Fist DC by two.
mannfred
03-06-07, 11:41 PM With the monk's speed and light armor, Spring Attack is a perfect fit. Get in without damage, hit hard, get out without damage. If you're fortunate enough to stun, stay in and unleash on the nasty next round.
UnknownMourner
03-07-07, 01:07 AM "just the PHB v3.5"

I feel your pain.

Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind
Imp. Crit at 8th.

If you made an Elf, you could also go with the bow feats if your party has some melee. Not so much for power, but to add a dimension. You could back up and shoot faster than most creatures can double move.
Lael
03-07-07, 02:02 AM Improved Natural Attack seems to be a good option as well :)
TheMagister
03-07-07, 04:56 AM What level is your monk?

Using only the PHB/DMG/MM1, there's not much by way of choice.

You did say elf, right?

Since you get Bows as a free racial weapon proficiency, let me second the fella who said to take up a longbow to add another dimension to your character. If you've got a bow, the deflect arrows bonus feat that a monk gets at second level is ultra-nice.

I'm gonna throw somethin' at ya here. Gloves of Arrow Snaring in conjunction with Deflect Arrows will allow you to completely ignore two ranged attacks a round that would normally hit. So, first they have to hit you, and then they have to hit you again, and then they have to hit you again, and the third one finally does damage. Know how to tick off a guy with rapid shot? That's a good way.

So you're backpedaling at high monk speed, outrunning the whatever it is, and firing one arrow a round. He's throwing whatever he can at you, and you're swatting 'em outta the air two at a time. It's pretty nice.

A monk-archer is a very viable build. If you can talk your DM into bracers of dexterity instead of gloves of dexterity, it gets even better.

You'll be depending on weapon enchantments to do most of your damage, though. That's the only drawback.

TM
vardock
03-07-07, 01:52 PM If you are an Elf Monk. you must be an Idiot.
1: elves lean toward chaos, monks must be lawful.
2: monks are melee Characters. elves get -2 Con. NEVER PLAY A MELEE CHARACTER USING A RACE WITH -2 CON UNLISS YOU HAVE A SPARE 18!!!!!
Worloth Kangro
03-07-07, 04:01 PM Looks like you got plenty of good advice, Podo. Just ignore Vardocks comment, Elf is an excellent melee race. Free weapon proficiencies? Yes, please.
Velcro Zipper
03-07-07, 09:33 PM Any of the standard races can make a good monk. I don't know what race the OP is choosing, but the elven monk I'm playing is the best fighter in the party and hardly ever gets hit so a -2 CON doesn't really mean a whole lot. The alignment a particular race leans toward doesn't matter either since there is no rule that states an elf must be chaotic or a dwarf must be lawful.

It seems rather pedantic for Vardock to call anybody an idiot for playing an elf monk. I kind of feel sorry for him. D&D being a game about imagination and all.
Podo
03-07-07, 11:18 PM OK, Here's what I have currently picked as wellas a few hints as to what the Monk is for...

I have gotten into a short pick-up game that is Evil only PvP style game.

I have thought long and hard, and I am going to make an 15th level Elf Monk, although I gave many hours of consideration to a 7th level Monk/Vampire.

His base stats are:
Str 13
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 18
Wis 16
Chr 6

He will have 200,000 gp to spend on equipment. Can only use the Core books: PHB, MM, & DMG.

Just trying to see what feats make sense. :gel:
Velcro Zipper
03-08-07, 01:04 AM It looks like the Whirlwind Attack Feat Tree would work well for him based on his high Dex/lowish Str. Take advantage of his speed. Imp. Natural Attack is definitely a good idea (that's 3d6+1 damage per attack, x5 if you use flurry of blows) If you swap your Int for your Wis score and give him Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, you'll have a save DC23 (10 +1/2lev +4wis +2ability focus.) An 18 Wis would also increase your AC by +1.
Moccanime
03-08-07, 02:01 PM If you are an Elf Monk. you must be an Idiot.
1: elves lean toward chaos, monks must be lawful.
2: monks are melee Characters. elves get -2 Con. NEVER PLAY A MELEE CHARACTER USING A RACE WITH -2 CON UNLISS YOU HAVE A SPARE 18!!!!!

Well some people like to roleplay rather than rollplay you know.
And not every Elf need to be chaotic, just like how not every Drow is evil.
Lastly, some of my favorit melee characters have been elfs and the -2 con didn't hamper me much.
jameswilliamogle
03-08-07, 03:36 PM Its kind of unfortunate you have the 18 in Int; with an 18 Str I'd say Imp. Grapple would be a no-brainer.

The Whirlwind attack line is good, as people have said.

Imp. Disarm can use your Dex mod, and if you are unarmed, you get to wield the weapon in your hand. Usually, monks take Imp. Trip at 6th, but your str is so low...

Monk Bonus feats:
1 Stunning Fist
2 Combat Reflexes
6 Improved Trip

That still leaves 7 feats left to choos. Getting Whirlwind attack takes 5 of those. Use one of the remaining for Imp. Initiative.

The last one depends on what kind of enemies you face. Imp. Grapple is great against Wizards; Weapon Finesse will apply to your unarmed strike; Imp. Critical is ok for your unarmed strike (a little weak, but not bad).
TheMagister
03-10-07, 05:47 PM I'm going to go against the grain and say that whirlwind attack is not the way to go.

In my (oh so humble) opinion, a monk that's standing still is a soon-to-be-dead monk.

I'd stop with spring attack, and take a few levels in shadowdancer and assassin.

The first time you Hide in Plain Sight, cast true strike, and then monk-waltz up to a bad guy and stunning attack/sneak attack/death attack/plus poison him and then walk away (hidden in plain sight), your DM will pull out his hair.

You: "Okay, make three fort saves, two of DC 23 and one of DC 20." The first one is to see if you're stunned. The second one is to see if you're dead. The third one is to see if your dead a different way." That'll even make a mid-level barbarian banch. If you only do it on that wizard in the back row, I'll almost guarantee instant kills.

Definite good advice is to switch your intelligence and wisdom, and to buy items that enhance both of them (that'll raise the DCs of your stun and death attack).

Feat chain:
1st: Dodge
Monk1: Stunning Fist
Monk1: IUS
Monk2: Deflect Arrows
3rd: Weapon Finesse
6th: Mobility
Monk6: Improved Disarm
9th: Spring Attack
12th: Ability Focus (stunning fist)
15th: Ability Focus (death attack)

Class progression: Monk 9/Shadowdancer 3/Assassin 3

Class Abilities:
Monk: Flurry of Blows, Still Mind, Ki strike (magic), Purity of Body (immune disease), Wholeness of Body, Improved Evasion
Shadowdancer: Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion (free silent image), Shadow Companion (free shadow ally that drains strength and is incorporeal...hella useful)
Assassin: Sneak Attack +2d6 (useful with flurry in certain situations), death attack [DC=10+3(class)+2(feat)+7(Int) or DC 22], uncanny dodge (stacks with shadowdancer so IMPROVED uncanny dodge), poison use, 4 1st level and 3 2nd level assassin spells (good list).

Shadowdancer is on pg 195 of the DMG, Assassin is on pg 180 of the same.

To pump the death attack save, you can always enter the assassin class earlier (monk 5/assassin 8/shadowdancer 2 makes for a DC 27 death attack), but the good saves and neat abilities of the monk are really attractive. You could enter Assassin as early as level 6. Same for Shadowdancer, but I'd at least take the three levels in that prestige class. The value of allies cannot be overstated.

Good luck!
Iarmeister
03-10-07, 05:57 PM Its kind of unfortunate you have the 18 in Int; with an 18 Str I'd say Imp. Grapple would be a no-brainer.

The Whirlwind attack line is good, as people have said.

Imp. Disarm can use your Dex mod, and if you are unarmed, you get to wield the weapon in your hand. Usually, monks take Imp. Trip at 6th, but your str is so low...

Monk Bonus feats:
1 Stunning Fist
2 Combat Reflexes
6 Improved Trip

That still leaves 7 feats left to choos. Getting Whirlwind attack takes 5 of those. Use one of the remaining for Imp. Initiative.

The last one depends on what kind of enemies you face. Imp. Grapple is great against Wizards; Weapon Finesse will apply to your unarmed strike; Imp. Critical is ok for your unarmed strike (a little weak, but not bad).

I agree it's a better choice to reposition your 18 score into Strength. From this point, do NOT invest in Weapon Finesse...a Monk's unarmed strike is good, but at the levels you are playing you need all the bonus damage dice you can get to hang with your fellow players and the monsters you will surely face. Make sure to invest in Belt of Giant Strength or Headband of Perfect Excellence and beef up your strength score, since now your melee-to-hit and damage scores are based off of only one stat.

Grappling at higher levels is totally ineffective versus creatures with Freedom of Movement, either the spell, ability, or magic item. Be sure to pick up the Ring of Freedom of Movement if/when you can afford it.

Also, an Amulet of Natural Armor, Monk's Belt and Boots of Haste are a must for your character at your level of play. Spend the money; it's a wise investment.
FlikViktor
03-11-07, 12:20 AM If you only have those books to choose from, I really think everyone may have over looked an important feat called Improved Natural Attack, which allows your Natural weapons to do damage as a Creature one size larger. So at level 20 with a monk if you go straight monk, your doing 4d8 damage with an unarmed strike. It's in the Monster Manual.
TheMagister
03-11-07, 03:13 PM It looks like the Whirlwind Attack Feat Tree would work well for him based on his high Dex/lowish Str. Take advantage of his speed. Imp. Natural Attack is definitely a good idea (that's 3d6+1 damage per attack, x5 if you use flurry of blows) If you swap your Int for your Wis score and give him Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, you'll have a save DC23 (10 +1/2lev +4wis +2ability focus.) An 18 Wis would also increase your AC by +1.

;)

'Ol Velcro was on top of that one.
Iarmeister
03-11-07, 05:11 PM Feat chain:
1st: Dodge
Monk1: Stunning Fist
Monk1: IUS
Monk2: Deflect Arrows
3rd: Weapon Finesse
6th: Mobility
Monk6: Improved Disarm
9th: Spring Attack
12th: Ability Focus (stunning fist)
15th: Ability Focus (death attack)

Huh?? Monk's Unarmed Strike is waaaaay better than IUS. I'm probably spitting hairs here, but the distinction between a monk's US and IUS the feat is noteworthy, as a monk's unarmed strike is also considered a natural weapon, and thus qualifies them for feats like Improved Natural Attack.

IUS does not do any of that.

However, I do like your planned feat progression, but would recommend playing a Human monk, so you can take Dodge and Mobility at level 1.

My 2 cp's worth...
TheMagister
03-11-07, 05:51 PM {apologetically}
Oh, bro: I only included that for the sake of completeness. The monk class gives you the feat for free. I didn't waste a slot on it. :)
dragynson1
03-11-07, 11:00 PM Also, an Amulet of Natural Armor, Monk's Belt and Boots of Haste are a must for your character at your level of play. Spend the money; it's a wise investment.

i agree with the high strength, and the natural armor, maonks belt, and boots of haste, creating gauntlets that add bonuses to hit and damage i snot out of line either, ( gauntlets turn the subdual damage form unarmed stirke into normal damage they are not a weapon in and of themselves, its a weird rule but it works, attacking with a guantlet is considered an unarmed strike) you Lose the option of doing subdual with your unarmed strikes (whoopee) SPIKED gauntlets are armed attacks.
So +5 guantlets of unholy, wounding, bane are workable.
Bopple
03-11-07, 11:08 PM If he really means PHB3.5 only, he cannot take Improved Natural Attack.
wonlee76
03-11-07, 11:28 PM PHB is pretty slim pickings.

The Spring Attack feat chain is pretty good with the monk's high mobility.

Blind Fight is a personal favorite of mine since it gives a pseudo Uncanny Dodge like ability. Works well to try to keep that Dex bonus to AC and to avoid being sneak attacked in some situations.

Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) is also good and a gateway feat for some spiffy Epic Monk Feats if you play epic games.

Weapon Finesse if you're a dex based monk vs. a strength based monk.

If you can delve into the Monster Manual, Improved Natural Attack is a must have feat.
dragynson1
03-11-07, 11:52 PM I forgot to add that you will have to use a feat, weapon proficieny, simple weapons. otherwise you take a nonproficiency penalty.

nothing i could find in the faqs contradict this.
TheMagister
03-12-07, 07:29 AM I forgot to add that you will have to use a feat, weapon proficieny, simple weapons. otherwise you take a nonproficiency penalty.

nothing i could find in the faqs contradict this.

Isn't it in the monk description? Something like: "Monks are proficient with all simple weapons and also the special monk weapons <list>."

I don't have my PHB on me right now, so I can't check.

If that language isn't in the monk description, then yeah, you'd need a weapon proficiency feat to use a morningstar.

But I know that monks are proficient with crossbows at least...maybe it's only a few select simple weapons? I don't recall.

TM
KurenaiYami
03-12-07, 08:13 AM But I know that monks are proficient with crossbows at least...maybe it's only a few select simple weapons? I don't recall.

A few select simple and a few select exotic. Might be some martial in there. You're right about crossbows, heavy and light are in there, but the morningstar would need a proficiency feat.
Embrodak
03-13-07, 09:37 AM What about Two-Weapon Fighting.

You can stack that with Flurry of Blows.
The_Shaman
03-13-07, 09:44 AM I'd rather not. A monk's BAB isn't spectacular to begin with. It could work for a multiclass monk (i.e. going from monk 11+ to duelist, especially as you already have an insane intelligence) or a monk multiclassing with a full BAB class, but for a pure monk?

BTW, I'm not kidding about the monk/duelist. If you already have a good intelligence and a non-stellar strength, that can be quite nice. Now, if you can get to elaborate parry and arrange it with your DM to count Combat expertise for 2+ BAB as equivalent to fighting defensively (some material in other books suggests this possibility), things can start looking good :)
Zumarai
03-13-07, 09:48 AM What about Two-Weapon Fighting.

You can stack that with Flurry of Blows.

Exactly:

18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str:

Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10

15 attacks per round.
Zumarai
03-13-07, 09:49 AM I'd rather not. A monk's BAB isn't spectacular to begin with. It could work for a multiclass monk (i.e. going from monk 11+ to duelist, especially as you already have an insane intelligence) or a monk multiclassing with a full BAB class, but for a pure monk?

BTW, I'm not kidding about the monk/duelist. If you already have a good intelligence and a non-stellar strength, that can be quite nice.

If your monk has a higher Int than Wis you should take the Kung Fu genius Feat.
nyluenatha
03-13-07, 10:00 AM Exactly:

18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str:

Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10

15 attacks per round.

This doesn't really work since Flurry of Blows is a full-round action, IIRC.

But it'd be frikkin sweet if it did.
Zumarai
03-13-07, 10:05 AM This doesn't really work since Flurry of Blows is a full-round action, IIRC.

Check out the FAQ, it does.

You can make off-hand and natural attacks in addition to a flurry.
nyluenatha
03-13-07, 12:25 PM sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
Zumarai
03-13-07, 12:34 PM sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

I know, it's lovely, isn't it?
feraltibbit
03-13-07, 12:38 PM There are SO many feats for a monk; templates as well.
They can also work to your benefit depending upon your stats. Check out these feats, some of which are qute basic:
Imp. Critical, Power Critical, Wpn Finesse (unarmed), Imp. Unarmed Strike (obviously), Power Strike, Critical Strike, Imp. Natural Attack, Dirty Fighting (match up with rouge), Imp. Dirty Fighting (match up w/rouge), Two-Wpn Fighting (Imp/Greater/Superior), etc.

If that ain't enough, check out the Quintessential Monk for more detailed feats.
Zumarai
03-13-07, 12:45 PM If that ain't enough, check out the Quintessential Monk for more detailed feats.

Mongoose publishing, unclean!
TheMagister
03-14-07, 07:31 AM Hey!

"Beyond Monks" was cool. PHBII had to have taken some ideas from it.
nyluenatha
03-14-07, 09:43 AM Beyond Monks is by far the best sourcebook for monk feats I have seen....anywhere. ANYWHERE! It makes me happy.
Zumarai
03-14-07, 09:57 AM Beyond Monks is by far the best sourcebook for monk feats I have seen....anywhere. ANYWHERE! It makes me happy.

Blasphemer!

...Just kidding.
nyluenatha
03-14-07, 02:10 PM Haha...well, i try to get at least one blaspheme in per day. I gotta meet my quota!
bigboy5584
03-14-07, 02:46 PM With all the talk over weapon finesse is everyone forget the feat allowing you to use your wisdom for attack. I don't have BoED in front of me right now but that is a great feat.

I thinks it's called intuitive attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Podo 03-06-07, 10:08 PM	With using just the PHB v3.5, what feats are a must for monks?:)
WinterPsionic 03-06-07, 10:26 PM	With using just the PHB v3.5, what feats are a must for monks?:) Kinda belongs on the char op board but whatever... I'd say Imp Init, the whole Imp Unarmed Strike line, and I guess that's it....I suppose you could add in Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexs for fun...
Velcro Zipper 03-06-07, 10:56 PM	I'm currently playing an elf monk in a game where we use only the core books (PHB, DMG, MM.) Combat Expertise and Dodge have greatly improved my AC. My Attack Bonus takes a hit due to Com. Exp., but Weapon Finesse counters that somewhat. I recommend Imp. Disarm for one of your bonus feats. Coupled with a Sai, you gain a +8 to Disarm attempts. If your DM allows it, the Monster Manual contains a General feat called Imp. Natural Attack. Imp. Natural Attack allows you to do unarmed damage as if you were a size category larger. Ability Focus from the same book, can raise your Stunning Fist DC by two.
mannfred 03-06-07, 11:41 PM	With the monk's speed and light armor, Spring Attack is a perfect fit. Get in without damage, hit hard, get out without damage. If you're fortunate enough to stun, stay in and unleash on the nasty next round.
UnknownMourner 03-07-07, 01:07 AM	"just the PHB v3.5" I feel your pain. Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind Imp. Crit at 8th. If you made an Elf, you could also go with the bow feats if your party has some melee. Not so much for power, but to add a dimension. You could back up and shoot faster than most creatures can double move.
Lael 03-07-07, 02:02 AM	Improved Natural Attack seems to be a good option as well :)
TheMagister 03-07-07, 04:56 AM	What level is your monk? Using only the PHB/DMG/MM1, there's not much by way of choice. You did say elf, right? Since you get Bows as a free racial weapon proficiency, let me second the fella who said to take up a longbow to add another dimension to your character. If you've got a bow, the deflect arrows bonus feat that a monk gets at second level is ultra-nice. I'm gonna throw somethin' at ya here. Gloves of Arrow Snaring in conjunction with Deflect Arrows will allow you to completely ignore two ranged attacks a round that would normally hit. So, first they have to hit you, and then they have to hit you again, and then they have to hit you again, and the third one finally does damage. Know how to tick off a guy with rapid shot? That's a good way. So you're backpedaling at high monk speed, outrunning the whatever it is, and firing one arrow a round. He's throwing whatever he can at you, and you're swatting 'em outta the air two at a time. It's pretty nice. A monk-archer is a very viable build. If you can talk your DM into bracers of dexterity instead of gloves of dexterity, it gets even better. You'll be depending on weapon enchantments to do most of your damage, though. That's the only drawback. TM
vardock 03-07-07, 01:52 PM	If you are an Elf Monk. you must be an Idiot. 1: elves lean toward chaos, monks must be lawful. 2: monks are melee Characters. elves get -2 Con. NEVER PLAY A MELEE CHARACTER USING A RACE WITH -2 CON UNLISS YOU HAVE A SPARE 18!!!!!
Worloth Kangro 03-07-07, 04:01 PM	Looks like you got plenty of good advice, Podo. Just ignore Vardocks comment, Elf is an excellent melee race. Free weapon proficiencies? Yes, please.
Velcro Zipper 03-07-07, 09:33 PM	Any of the standard races can make a good monk. I don't know what race the OP is choosing, but the elven monk I'm playing is the best fighter in the party and hardly ever gets hit so a -2 CON doesn't really mean a whole lot. The alignment a particular race leans toward doesn't matter either since there is no rule that states an elf must be chaotic or a dwarf must be lawful. It seems rather pedantic for Vardock to call anybody an idiot for playing an elf monk. I kind of feel sorry for him. D&D being a game about imagination and all.
Podo 03-07-07, 11:18 PM	OK, Here's what I have currently picked as wellas a few hints as to what the Monk is for... I have gotten into a short pick-up game that is Evil only PvP style game. I have thought long and hard, and I am going to make an 15th level Elf Monk, although I gave many hours of consideration to a 7th level Monk/Vampire. His base stats are: Str 13 Dex 17 Con 13 Int 18 Wis 16 Chr 6 He will have 200,000 gp to spend on equipment. Can only use the Core books: PHB, MM, & DMG. Just trying to see what feats make sense. :gel:
Velcro Zipper 03-08-07, 01:04 AM	It looks like the Whirlwind Attack Feat Tree would work well for him based on his high Dex/lowish Str. Take advantage of his speed. Imp. Natural Attack is definitely a good idea (that's 3d6+1 damage per attack, x5 if you use flurry of blows) If you swap your Int for your Wis score and give him Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, you'll have a save DC23 (10 +1/2lev +4wis +2ability focus.) An 18 Wis would also increase your AC by +1.
Moccanime 03-08-07, 02:01 PM	If you are an Elf Monk. you must be an Idiot. 1: elves lean toward chaos, monks must be lawful. 2: monks are melee Characters. elves get -2 Con. NEVER PLAY A MELEE CHARACTER USING A RACE WITH -2 CON UNLISS YOU HAVE A SPARE 18!!!!! Well some people like to roleplay rather than rollplay you know. And not every Elf need to be chaotic, just like how not every Drow is evil. Lastly, some of my favorit melee characters have been elfs and the -2 con didn't hamper me much.
jameswilliamogle 03-08-07, 03:36 PM	Its kind of unfortunate you have the 18 in Int; with an 18 Str I'd say Imp. Grapple would be a no-brainer. The Whirlwind attack line is good, as people have said. Imp. Disarm can use your Dex mod, and if you are unarmed, you get to wield the weapon in your hand. Usually, monks take Imp. Trip at 6th, but your str is so low... Monk Bonus feats: 1 Stunning Fist 2 Combat Reflexes 6 Improved Trip That still leaves 7 feats left to choos. Getting Whirlwind attack takes 5 of those. Use one of the remaining for Imp. Initiative. The last one depends on what kind of enemies you face. Imp. Grapple is great against Wizards; Weapon Finesse will apply to your unarmed strike; Imp. Critical is ok for your unarmed strike (a little weak, but not bad).
TheMagister 03-10-07, 05:47 PM	I'm going to go against the grain and say that whirlwind attack is not the way to go. In my (oh so humble) opinion, a monk that's standing still is a soon-to-be-dead monk. I'd stop with spring attack, and take a few levels in shadowdancer and assassin. The first time you Hide in Plain Sight, cast true strike, and then monk-waltz up to a bad guy and stunning attack/sneak attack/death attack/plus poison him and then walk away (hidden in plain sight), your DM will pull out his hair. You: "Okay, make three fort saves, two of DC 23 and one of DC 20." The first one is to see if you're stunned. The second one is to see if you're dead. The third one is to see if your dead a different way." That'll even make a mid-level barbarian banch. If you only do it on that wizard in the back row, I'll almost guarantee instant kills. Definite good advice is to switch your intelligence and wisdom, and to buy items that enhance both of them (that'll raise the DCs of your stun and death attack). Feat chain: 1st: Dodge Monk1: Stunning Fist Monk1: IUS Monk2: Deflect Arrows 3rd: Weapon Finesse 6th: Mobility Monk6: Improved Disarm 9th: Spring Attack 12th: Ability Focus (stunning fist) 15th: Ability Focus (death attack) Class progression: Monk 9/Shadowdancer 3/Assassin 3 Class Abilities: Monk: Flurry of Blows, Still Mind, Ki strike (magic), Purity of Body (immune disease), Wholeness of Body, Improved Evasion Shadowdancer: Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion (free silent image), Shadow Companion (free shadow ally that drains strength and is incorporeal...hella useful) Assassin: Sneak Attack +2d6 (useful with flurry in certain situations), death attack [DC=10+3(class)+2(feat)+7(Int) or DC 22], uncanny dodge (stacks with shadowdancer so IMPROVED uncanny dodge), poison use, 4 1st level and 3 2nd level assassin spells (good list). Shadowdancer is on pg 195 of the DMG, Assassin is on pg 180 of the same. To pump the death attack save, you can always enter the assassin class earlier (monk 5/assassin 8/shadowdancer 2 makes for a DC 27 death attack), but the good saves and neat abilities of the monk are really attractive. You could enter Assassin as early as level 6. Same for Shadowdancer, but I'd at least take the three levels in that prestige class. The value of allies cannot be overstated. Good luck!
Iarmeister 03-10-07, 05:57 PM	Its kind of unfortunate you have the 18 in Int; with an 18 Str I'd say Imp. Grapple would be a no-brainer. The Whirlwind attack line is good, as people have said. Imp. Disarm can use your Dex mod, and if you are unarmed, you get to wield the weapon in your hand. Usually, monks take Imp. Trip at 6th, but your str is so low... Monk Bonus feats: 1 Stunning Fist 2 Combat Reflexes 6 Improved Trip That still leaves 7 feats left to choos. Getting Whirlwind attack takes 5 of those. Use one of the remaining for Imp. Initiative. The last one depends on what kind of enemies you face. Imp. Grapple is great against Wizards; Weapon Finesse will apply to your unarmed strike; Imp. Critical is ok for your unarmed strike (a little weak, but not bad). I agree it's a better choice to reposition your 18 score into Strength. From this point, do NOT invest in Weapon Finesse...a Monk's unarmed strike is good, but at the levels you are playing you need all the bonus damage dice you can get to hang with your fellow players and the monsters you will surely face. Make sure to invest in Belt of Giant Strength or Headband of Perfect Excellence and beef up your strength score, since now your melee-to-hit and damage scores are based off of only one stat. Grappling at higher levels is totally ineffective versus creatures with Freedom of Movement, either the spell, ability, or magic item. Be sure to pick up the Ring of Freedom of Movement if/when you can afford it. Also, an Amulet of Natural Armor, Monk's Belt and Boots of Haste are a must for your character at your level of play. Spend the money; it's a wise investment.
FlikViktor 03-11-07, 12:20 AM	If you only have those books to choose from, I really think everyone may have over looked an important feat called Improved Natural Attack, which allows your Natural weapons to do damage as a Creature one size larger. So at level 20 with a monk if you go straight monk, your doing 4d8 damage with an unarmed strike. It's in the Monster Manual.
TheMagister 03-11-07, 03:13 PM	It looks like the Whirlwind Attack Feat Tree would work well for him based on his high Dex/lowish Str. Take advantage of his speed. Imp. Natural Attack is definitely a good idea (that's 3d6+1 damage per attack, x5 if you use flurry of blows) If you swap your Int for your Wis score and give him Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, you'll have a save DC23 (10 +1/2lev +4wis +2ability focus.) An 18 Wis would also increase your AC by +1. ;) 'Ol Velcro was on top of that one.
Iarmeister 03-11-07, 05:11 PM	Feat chain: 1st: Dodge Monk1: Stunning Fist Monk1: IUS Monk2: Deflect Arrows 3rd: Weapon Finesse 6th: Mobility Monk6: Improved Disarm 9th: Spring Attack 12th: Ability Focus (stunning fist) 15th: Ability Focus (death attack) Huh?? Monk's Unarmed Strike is waaaaay better than IUS. I'm probably spitting hairs here, but the distinction between a monk's US and IUS the feat is noteworthy, as a monk's unarmed strike is also considered a natural weapon, and thus qualifies them for feats like Improved Natural Attack. IUS does not do any of that. However, I do like your planned feat progression, but would recommend playing a Human monk, so you can take Dodge and Mobility at level 1. My 2 cp's worth...
TheMagister 03-11-07, 05:51 PM	{apologetically} Oh, bro: I only included that for the sake of completeness. The monk class gives you the feat for free. I didn't waste a slot on it. :)
dragynson1 03-11-07, 11:00 PM	Also, an Amulet of Natural Armor, Monk's Belt and Boots of Haste are a must for your character at your level of play. Spend the money; it's a wise investment. i agree with the high strength, and the natural armor, maonks belt, and boots of haste, creating gauntlets that add bonuses to hit and damage i snot out of line either, ( gauntlets turn the subdual damage form unarmed stirke into normal damage they are not a weapon in and of themselves, its a weird rule but it works, attacking with a guantlet is considered an unarmed strike) you Lose the option of doing subdual with your unarmed strikes (whoopee) SPIKED gauntlets are armed attacks. So +5 guantlets of unholy, wounding, bane are workable.
Bopple 03-11-07, 11:08 PM	If he really means PHB3.5 only, he cannot take Improved Natural Attack.
wonlee76 03-11-07, 11:28 PM	PHB is pretty slim pickings. The Spring Attack feat chain is pretty good with the monk's high mobility. Blind Fight is a personal favorite of mine since it gives a pseudo Uncanny Dodge like ability. Works well to try to keep that Dex bonus to AC and to avoid being sneak attacked in some situations. Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) is also good and a gateway feat for some spiffy Epic Monk Feats if you play epic games. Weapon Finesse if you're a dex based monk vs. a strength based monk. If you can delve into the Monster Manual, Improved Natural Attack is a must have feat.
dragynson1 03-11-07, 11:52 PM	I forgot to add that you will have to use a feat, weapon proficieny, simple weapons. otherwise you take a nonproficiency penalty. nothing i could find in the faqs contradict this.
TheMagister 03-12-07, 07:29 AM	I forgot to add that you will have to use a feat, weapon proficieny, simple weapons. otherwise you take a nonproficiency penalty. nothing i could find in the faqs contradict this. Isn't it in the monk description? Something like: "Monks are proficient with all simple weapons and also the special monk weapons <list>." I don't have my PHB on me right now, so I can't check. If that language isn't in the monk description, then yeah, you'd need a weapon proficiency feat to use a morningstar. But I know that monks are proficient with crossbows at least...maybe it's only a few select simple weapons? I don't recall. TM
KurenaiYami 03-12-07, 08:13 AM	But I know that monks are proficient with crossbows at least...maybe it's only a few select simple weapons? I don't recall. A few select simple and a few select exotic. Might be some martial in there. You're right about crossbows, heavy and light are in there, but the morningstar would need a proficiency feat.
Embrodak 03-13-07, 09:37 AM	What about Two-Weapon Fighting. You can stack that with Flurry of Blows.
The_Shaman 03-13-07, 09:44 AM	I'd rather not. A monk's BAB isn't spectacular to begin with. It could work for a multiclass monk (i.e. going from monk 11+ to duelist, especially as you already have an insane intelligence) or a monk multiclassing with a full BAB class, but for a pure monk? BTW, I'm not kidding about the monk/duelist. If you already have a good intelligence and a non-stellar strength, that can be quite nice. Now, if you can get to elaborate parry and arrange it with your DM to count Combat expertise for 2+ BAB as equivalent to fighting defensively (some material in other books suggests this possibility), things can start looking good :)
Zumarai 03-13-07, 09:48 AM	What about Two-Weapon Fighting. You can stack that with Flurry of Blows. Exactly: 18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str: Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10 15 attacks per round.
Zumarai 03-13-07, 09:49 AM	I'd rather not. A monk's BAB isn't spectacular to begin with. It could work for a multiclass monk (i.e. going from monk 11+ to duelist, especially as you already have an insane intelligence) or a monk multiclassing with a full BAB class, but for a pure monk? BTW, I'm not kidding about the monk/duelist. If you already have a good intelligence and a non-stellar strength, that can be quite nice. If your monk has a higher Int than Wis you should take the Kung Fu genius Feat.
nyluenatha 03-13-07, 10:00 AM	Exactly: 18th level thri-kreen monk (2 monstrous humanoid HD) with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting and a 10 Str: Full Attack: Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and unarmed strike +13/+8/+3 and bite +10 15 attacks per round. This doesn't really work since Flurry of Blows is a full-round action, IIRC. But it'd be frikkin sweet if it did.
Zumarai 03-13-07, 10:05 AM	This doesn't really work since Flurry of Blows is a full-round action, IIRC. Check out the FAQ, it does. You can make off-hand and natural attacks in addition to a flurry.
nyluenatha 03-13-07, 12:25 PM	sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
Zumarai 03-13-07, 12:34 PM	sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet I know, it's lovely, isn't it?
feraltibbit 03-13-07, 12:38 PM	There are SO many feats for a monk; templates as well. They can also work to your benefit depending upon your stats. Check out these feats, some of which are qute basic: Imp. Critical, Power Critical, Wpn Finesse (unarmed), Imp. Unarmed Strike (obviously), Power Strike, Critical Strike, Imp. Natural Attack, Dirty Fighting (match up with rouge), Imp. Dirty Fighting (match up w/rouge), Two-Wpn Fighting (Imp/Greater/Superior), etc. If that ain't enough, check out the Quintessential Monk for more detailed feats.
Zumarai 03-13-07, 12:45 PM	If that ain't enough, check out the Quintessential Monk for more detailed feats. Mongoose publishing, unclean!
TheMagister 03-14-07, 07:31 AM	Hey! "Beyond Monks" was cool. PHBII had to have taken some ideas from it.
nyluenatha 03-14-07, 09:43 AM	Beyond Monks is by far the best sourcebook for monk feats I have seen....anywhere. ANYWHERE! It makes me happy.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:57 AM	Beyond Monks is by far the best sourcebook for monk feats I have seen....anywhere. ANYWHERE! It makes me happy. Blasphemer! ...Just kidding.
nyluenatha 03-14-07, 02:10 PM	Haha...well, i try to get at least one blaspheme in per day. I gotta meet my quota!
bigboy5584 03-14-07, 02:46 PM	With all the talk over weapon finesse is everyone forget the feat allowing you to use your wisdom for attack. I don't have BoED in front of me right now but that is a great feat. I thinks it's called intuitive attack.